I really have to say that this makes me leery. If a CL is not willing to promote someone to Made Man, out of the worry or suspicion that they may take that promotion and then go rogue, that whole thought process is now... irrelevant. Now someone can autopromote all the way to Wise Guy and then just... say "screw it" and buy a HQ and rogue.

As a long time player, I have to say that I am... disquieted about this change, to say the least.

The system of needing to be promoted by your CL was working, I just don't understand why this is necessary.

Punk, the approval process is still in place and will still work as it always has. Because it has always been in the hands of the players to run approvals. Its never been a coded part of the game. As long as it doesn't allow someone to build up Don experience at Wise Guy then rogue and auto rank from Wise Guy to Don, I don't see anything terribly wrong with it.

Okay, see, I don't care if they're a Don or a Made Man - a rogue is a rogue is a rogue, and this gives the opportunity for more rogues to occur.

Say I'm a crewleader, and I'm holding onto BobVilla's promotion, because I've gotten word, or I have a feeling, that he may rogue as soon as he hits Made and I want to prevent that. Now that choice is completely out of my hands. BobVilla simply flies to LA and poof, now he gets his promotion and a HQ at the same time, his very own "InstaRogue" kit, regardless of my feelings, my RHM's feelings, other CL's feelings, or my Godfather's feelings. Now, BobVilla's rogue and comes back and shoots me, maybe he 1%s or .5%s or whatever it is, or maybe he's been training his gun like a beast and has been held back for a while so he's got a ridiculous amount of kills for a Wise Guy... the very scenario I was trying to avoid - dying to this rogue, has happened and I no longer had the chance to prevent it from happening.

I get the fact that the xp resets so they have to rank past on their own, and I get that you have a better chance to shoot someone if you're promoted by your CL, but let's face it... the guys who will take this option aren't going to be the patient ones who rank up to Don and the go berserk, it's going to lend itself VERY highly to a "Drown them in bullets" scenario.

Not to mention, from a RP perspective, getting your Made button is something MONUMENTALLY important - it should not just be handed out like the prize at the bottom of a cracker jack box, this change, I feel, completely devalues that promotion, it devalues the fact that you have to EARN your button, that you know you've accomplished something when your leader puts his or her faith in you and makes you Made.

Quite frankly, if I were a leader now, the mindset goes from "I think BobVilla is hinky, let's hold him at WG for a while" to "I think BobVilla is hinky, let's let him get to WG and earn every bit of cash for me that he can, then pop him." And I just don't think that's a good change.

I just.... I don't know. I'm uncomfortable about this, and I hope I've managed to explain why in a way that doesn't make it seem like I'm just whining.

I don't think you're whining, CM_Punk, but I do ask you this:

If you're holding someone at wise guy because you have a gut feeling or you've heard rumors they'll rogue when they hit made man, then you don't trust them. And if you don't trust someone, why bother holding them at wise guy? Kill them, and put in your final words to them that you don't trust them and people who abuse your trust, or who don't earn it find themselves as fish food.

As far as this change goes, I think we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I think there might be some initial excitement at first, but rogues will always be rogues and will always be treated the same way. In the end, I think it will balance out but no one will really use this as a way to be 'promoted' as anyone who rogues will do so to get that one shot to make the change they seek and likely be killed in the process. If by chance they go after Crewleader A and survive, unless they had the support of other leaders, they'll die soon.

If they did have the support of other leaders, 'rogue' is subjective and they'll be authed eventually.

I'm not so sure that this 'change' changes much at all.

Forcing a leader to pay attention to Wise Guy's instead of relying on game mechanics to hold someone back is a good thing. Making the decision to trust or not trust someone at that position should have a "clock" on it, and not allow it to be some indefinite hold at Wise Guy.

This change seems to fall in line with the "no notification/no buyout price" change from whenever that was. And I feel both changes are good things.

Wearing the rank of Made Man signifies to the rest of the world that you've gained the acceptance of your peers. It tells everyone that you belong where you are.

This seems to completely negate that.

I know it's a concession for the sake of gameplay mechanics, but it still makes getting Made hard to take seriously.

Anything to add a little excitement around here is a good idea. As it stands, rogues are basically irrelevant to the game at this point. Seriously, can anyone remember the last rogue to make even a minimal impact on the game? This is not going to change anything. Just because someone can get a promotion to Mademan despite the wishes of any crew leader does not mean that all of a sudden they will be able to penetrate the mob of bodyguards following around most leaders.

There was a time when a single rogue could wipe out half the game's CLs. Prowackers were unable to be detected unless you caught them wackbacking into jail. There was a cap on bodyguards allowed. The game has been wussified little by little. We really ought to begin rolling back some of those changes. This isn't real life, folks! There should be some excitement and danger involved with our gaming activities. Otherwise, hell, let's play a quilt knitting RPG.

"Wearing the rank of Made Man signifies to the rest of the world that you've gained the acceptance of your peers. It tells everyone that you belong where you are.

This seems to completely negate that.

I know it's a concession for the sake of gameplay mechanics, but it still makes getting Made hard to take seriously.
Reply by: Rudiger at Sep 09, '11 20:29"

Would say I have to disagree on that point. What you said is true, Made Man is and always should remain an honour to be GIVEN. The fact that these people taking Made Man from this change would be shot at the first opportunity only enforces that idea, as they havn't earned that badge, or their Bold status, and are quickly removed by the community who no longer have respect for them.

This feature has been completed, and is currently being tested. It will be going live at 23:00

Skulfa, as long as there is one city without a GF, then it can happen. And since there has never been 8 sitting GFs at the same time, there has always been a city to buy a HQ in that didn't have a Godfather.

I'm not sure I really understand what this is hoping to rectify.

How many people are actually prevented from getting Made Man in reality? > 1% of the users here I would guess, because nearly always someone, somewhere is either willing or naive enough to give them an opportunity.

All this really does is give someone the opportunity to throw away their account even earlier than if they had waited to be promoted by their boss. The reason for rogues becoming irrelevant isn't because of lack of ability to get to Made Man and setup a HQ, it is because they and most other activities short of 12 months of training, are destined to fail.

If we are really interested in restoring the fun and risk factor that accompanied rogues, it will be necessary to address the credit marketplace, the BG problems and witness statements. Until then, this will just be another method, seldom used, for people to shoot either extremely low ranked users or a handful of bodyguards belonging to high ranked users.

Apologies for putting a negative slant on this.

~C~

i must admit i am surprised either something about bodyguards which has been mulled over or the pp/whack stealth werent further ahead of this as dont see it as a needed change.

Totally agree with Chuckle here, I'm not exactly sure of the point in this. It's not going to make any difference whatsoever as to what rogues can do. It might tempt a few to use it to start with but they will come up short a couple of times and then not bother attempting it again.

Also, like Chuckle says, there are far more pressing issues to change if you really wanted to shake things up like bodyguards and witness statements. If you took away the failed wack witness statements (because I know you're never going to take away people's bodyguards) it would make things a lot more interesting simply because the rogues would last longer which means they would get more shots in and who knows... maybe even 1% someone.

(Before words are shoved in my mouth and taken the wrong way I would NEVER rogue.)

Hmm some negatives indeed but i am interested to see what will happen.

Be quite a feat if someone could set up and manage to keep the reigns. Though I dont see the family of said rogue dropped out of would take it quite well even if the intent is not to just start trying to wack random people. I understand that going rogue in an already Governed city but, a vacant city wouldn't even concern me so long they're not shooting at other cities.

but like i said the family they left wouldnt take to kindly to them just leaving, only way i could see it not ending in death is if said persons pays a very hefty amount of money for disrespecting them in such a manor. And managing to come to terms with the other cities GodFathers. Sorry if i rambled just speaking off the top of my head.

I think this gives great balance to the game as the insurmountable number of bodyguards that some players can purchase can be balanced out by 1% chance hitters.

WeedMaster, you do realize that no hitter should rely on a 1% chance to hit their target. Plus, this addition will, in no way, support the ability of users to make those shots, anyway.

This doesn't balance out anything, it just makes it seem like going rogue is easier to do, now.