Squishy, BG's and defence may be lower now than just a few months ago, but they are getting higher again. We are going to have at LEAST 2-3 months of stagnancy now which will only serve up more BG's and higher defences. How many BG's do we have now compared to lets say... after Orleans had been wiped out? I guarantee that number has risen ever since and now across the board all we have is allies of Roman and Prem so there will be no serious conflict for another few months, by which time we will be back to the ridiculously high defences, and ridiculously high number of bodyguards.

I feel you're being really short-sighted by just picking up on Grin's numbers, he made a lot of very valid points which the people who have replied to this thread have generally agreed with and all you've done is pick fault with his numbers.

I'm really disappointed that you've got so defensive over this, you seem to be taking this as an attack on you personally when it was actually aimed at improving the game. Grin, nor the users have demanded that you change all the features to suit his ideas... they are merely that... IDEAS

Sigh... talking to me like I'm an idiot now.

You're taking this far too personally so I won't utter another word on any issue that has been raised here.

I think people need to take a step back and let themselves get their emotions back in check.

Grins report was his opinions on the state of the game, made by a long term player based on his understandings, beliefs and various other things.

They may or may not be 100% accurate and as such should be treated like that. Numbers etc are highlight points and should not I imagine be taken as gospel.


This is from what I can see to be the primary issue that Izzy has with the report, and also the scaremongering that it may create when you see such large figures.

The unfortunate nature of the report is easily seen in this thread with people saying that "It needs acting on now", do something in haste and you can regret it at your leisure. I know the report itself has taken Grin a long time to prepare, there are a considerable element within the principles that I agree with, there are others I am not so certain about. As always there are a number of changes made to the game where I feel that the coders haven't done enough however I place my trust in them to do it right. I don't get the impression from reading some of these posts the same level of trust exists.

We are very much back to a balancing act for changes, areas where we need major changes will not be done until a reset, that is the way of the world. Considerable investment has gone into a vast number of accounts that you do not pull the plug on the game on the whim of someone who thinks a chance is necessary. Changes which will be hot fixed into this Beta version will be done to give the populace the chance to have an element of the same advantage that most have had. That is pure common sense.


I think the biggest issue Mafia Returns has had over the past 2 years has been Bodyguards and the demotion aspect of the game, it has been looked at a few times and the issue has been nibbled around the edge to try and fix it. A more significant fix I feel would be to hard code in the cost of your BGs are respective to the highest rank your character has attained. If you want an uber BG'd up account that means front up a fuckton of cash like anyone would need to of your rank or start a fresh.


Stats increasting into perpetuity can be fixed like most games use with stats, introducing an diminishing returns element. I am more than happy to discuss this principle with admins and coders if they want to.

When I was writing this, I hoped that it wouldn't just be a pebble thrown into the ocean and it would be more akin to a brick being tossed into a bathtub. I'm glad to see that it has garnered so much attention and I appreciate it is a contentious thing when someone appears to be highlights only the negatives. I wanted to voice what I felt about the game and to hopefully see changes enacted as a result of it, which would enable a better game to be played for all of us.

One of the main things that has been missed in all of this, is that I'm not a rabble-rouser trying to oust Roman and I'll cry if he doesn't quit. That isn't me and my argument is that whoever is at the top, including if it was me, these things would still be issues and would still necessitate change.

Squishy took the time to have a lengthy conversation with me last night and I appreciate that. He gave me information that I either didn't properly consider or didn't have access to when I did the report originally. It is a fair assessment from him to say that some of the "facts" I used in relation to the number of users actually undermined the points I was trying to make. I was pretty disappointed with that, as you can imagine, but that was my bad and I should have checked those points in regards to user numbers more carefully before making them.

With that being said, I never believed that I could produce something that would 100% be nailed on fact. It was never going to be a possibility, I don't code the game and (thankfully) I don't know how everything works. Equally, I don't know about every change that Squishy makes unless he tells us about them, because I'm not one of these people who lives on IRC, chats to him regularly or is his go to guy for things. I made what I could, with the information and knowledge that I have accumulated from my many years as a significant participant here. I can only produce it, see the response and then refine it, hoping to present as representative an opinion as I can.

I have now performed the necessary changes to the old Grin Report, making it as accurate as I can and I have included some real working examples to provide some evidence of the situations I was talking about. These are not merely wild speculations that I've plucked from the sky and whilst I may have miscalculated on some aspects in the original production, others remain factually correct as you can see. Much of the content remains the same and only the phraseology has been altered in some circumstances to provide clarity of meaning to some of the more ambiguous statements that I made. There have been additions, particularly in relation to IRC notifications and other smaller things.

A full list of changes between the original and the one that you can currently access, can be found here. I may have missed some, but I have tried to be as transparent as possible with what has been altered.

The main issues that I was trying to get across from all of this are still pertinent; regardless of the mistake over the amount of users. The groundswell of support for this, from across all levels of the game, demonstrate that. The fact that Squishy is taking action to rectify these matters, will be a big boost to a lot of these people as it is easy to become disillusioned with the game when you think that things are overwhelmingly stacked against you. It is equally the case when they are stacked for you.

I still believe that many of the issues raised, particularly in terms of effort and account length need to be addressed and brought back into line. I also don't think anyone doubts that changes are being made and if my document gave that impression, then it was never intended to. Obviously I take exception to accusations like using "incorrect numbers, poor logic, and stretched truths to try to convince people of what you are saying", because it all essentially boiled down to the same factual inaccuracy each time in relation to falling users. Much of the content remains factually accurate.

As you say, perception is one thing and reality is another. Your perception of the game from on high is not always an accurate reflection of the reality of playing it. A lot of things that could or may be done, when considered in terms of actual people playing the game, are very unlikely to ever come to fruition and that is one of the main reasons why I believe feedback like this from players is essential and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. We are the producers of the primary data, with real opinions and beliefs as a result of playing, even when you don't like what those opinions are.

It is easy to assume that many veteran players have become jaded, misinformed to the point they are self defeating, lazy or self entitled, because some are. Some. There are however, still plenty of veterans who help to keep this game going and if you look around the hierarchy of the game, you will see a lot of familiar faces in there. Not every concern can be attributed to misconception, because plenty are valid.

~C~

Euphegenia trots past smiling as usual greeting everyone as she walks past. She then notices 'Grins Report' her face drops and she no longer smiles. She sighs and continues to do her grocery shopping. While doing her grocery shopping she over hears El_Nino say something about 'Hard Coding BG prices to the highest rank attained on that char'. She suddenly springs back to life smiling and nods her head in agreement with the idea.. WHILE doing her grocery shopping.

What has to be remembered is what made this game great?

Simplicity

Secrets

The hope of being the best (whtether it be best killer, JBer, street talker, Pro'er, Ranker, etc)

Get these 3 right, and you have a fair fun game again!

D'aw! I know I make this game great! So sweet of you!

Okay, jokes aside, even though that would be amazing if he did mean me. I'm quite happy to see that someone actually put a lot of effort into writing out what he felt was wrong and didn't just make a post complaining about it. Chuckle made a very long and well written document that went into depth about each issue he found. This had to of taken quite some time and I myself know it took a lot of thought. You couldn't just write something like that in an hour or maybe even in one day! It is nice to see someone who cares so much about this game that he actually takes the time to put forth this kind of effort to make it better.

I'm also happy to see that Squishy didn't just throw it to the side! Not everything can be perfect and in any type of work, game, or business there is always room for improvement. It is always nice to see that those here aren't closed minded and will take suggestions. Granted, things may have been wrong in the document, but it's wonderful to see that you are going forth to make changes! If you show people that you care then they are more likely to enjoy being around and continuing on with this game.

I commend both of you and other's who brought things forth on this topic. I'm here to just say that it is nice to see people working together to make this game better. Thanks!

I think that it is a good thing that Grin took the time to compile the report - it goes to show that there are many dedicated members in this community.  I also think it's good that Squishy took the time to respond - this shows that we have a fair-minded and highly decent owner.  And this is a community.

What I think goes wrong from time to time is a conflict between systemic concerns and cultural concerns.  Squishy creates the system; the players create the culture.  So, for example, a year ago you would die for "member whoring".  Now you don't.

There have been a spate of killings for posting in a funeral - this might not have happened in the past; the culture that we have at the moment means that it does (I have nothing to say on this one way or the other, just saying it as an example).

As the game has gone on, more people have played for longer - and in doing so have picked up hints and tips. 

If we think back a lot of years, a real bugbear of mine was logging in and finding yourself dead; the result of a city takedown - this doesn't happen so often any more (though it does sometimes).

Squishy works damn hard to create a very good game for all of us to play - to put it bluntly, he deserves something in return.  I think that buying credits is fine

BUT - Grin makes a good point, a very good point in fact.  We are the mafia - maybe there should be a mechanism whereby you can't use the credit marketplace to trade with above Made if you['re below Made .  OR maybe you need to pay a tax - this would increase blackmarket trades, without the protection of the marketplace - which would lead to realism, intelligence gathering, rip-offs, feuds and general intruige.

What do you think, guys?

Whilst I think it would definitely add authenticity if deals for credits sometimes went awry, knowing how most of the players are here and their sensitivity over credits, it would probably be opening up a whole can of worms for the owners.

Although with that said, the game did used to function on trades without the marketplace and I think some people still do their own deals, so maybe it could work?

~C~

I think it would work just fine.  For example, and please don't take offence, I'd rip you off, Chuckle, and then tell everyone in the Streets about it - but RJFuller, for example, I would not dare to do the dirty on him.

The reason for my hesitance is whilst I would happily accept that if I got ripped off, then that is my own fault, most of the people here, I don't think, would accept that. Instead, I think they would immediately run to Squishy demanding that their credits are restored and the culprits punished.

Worms, everywhere.

~C~

Yeah, there would need to be a firm protocol in place

You mean some sort of designated way to trade credits for cash, to keep people from running to Squishy every time they got ripped off in an uncontrolled transaction?

Not quite - an understanding universal across the game - seperate to the marketplace.

Would be thinkable to limit  the amount of cash that each rank can be sent? now, im not a MR think tank like chuckle and this is juts a off the top of the head thought but it would help assist with the bg problem. I dont know it could be the lower ranks can be sent more cash, simply because with the higher ranks, there is more chance to earn cash. we could lower the price of bgs to help balance out both sides of the coin, also giving people the chance to buy bgs with game cahs.

i could be way off the mark here,and it would need a massive overhall, but i just thought id give it a shot.

I tip my hat to Grin, i'm astonished at the amount of work and effort he's put into this. I'm amazed he had the time to pull this together with RL committments, as i'm sure it tooks days and weeks to compile plus reading and re-reading. I think this highlights that people aswell as the admins and coders have a genuine love of this game and want to see it thriv

Some of the idea's to come from this which relate to the game features I believe will only enhance our overall day to day game playing experience, I really do. Especially relating to making more realism out of the DFP feature and the credit marketplace. Tieing the DFP feature into the Business District, will inject a bit of life into the BD, which to be frank has a poor showing these days. Aswell as making DFP owners work a bit harder for their money, which is really money for old rope at moment, and has no stimulation or buzz to the feature.

I also appluad Squishy for coming out and being so open instead of brushing it under the carpet, I know, I like many others aren't privy to whats going on in the background. I think everyone should also realize that there are only so many hrs in the day and so much man-power to get things done. Not everything can rolled out overnight. I think the recent changes are a step in the right direcion though. Its good to see that everybody is pushing in the right direction

I think in the case of veterans, one of which id class myself as, Many become disillusioned. When you consider as outlined by someone else its going to take months of solid work (6 months @ 5 kills per day= around 900 kills) and even then if you have dodged WB there is still no guarantee you could hit someone with 250+ BGs and even when you consider the other option of waving BGs its not viably possible for a group outside of crew ties to sufficiently drop someone's level of BGs enough to take them out. Judging from experience it takes 80+ kills after maxing ranges to hit a Don/GF's Bodygaurds and even then if you did get together 20 people with those 80+ kills under their belts the chances of you all getting more than 3 or 4 shots off without being caught especially now when you factor in IRC notifications and the new BG witnessing feature. Starting again now seems so much more daunting than ever before.

This isnt me saying that saying that nothing is being done and I appreciate that the only way to correct all those issues outlined in Grins report instantly is a reset which isnt really a viable option but I know the admins and coders are listening and are trying to rectify the situation. Thats one of the things ive always respected and liked the administration staff both here and on old Mafia.org, the admins listen to the user base and thats why although I will be taking a break when this character reaches 48 hours old but I will certainly be back.

Not read it all yet, here's the best point for me though:

"This [account length] is not right and it should be no surprise to anyone that new users are not sucked in by a system that requires such dedication to even achieve middling success.

It's always the case that put most work in should get most work out, but the way things were when I left it was pretty much all or nothing. You couldn't be a 'casual' player and get some return really. It's the reason I left the game and don't intend to stay around because I ultimately know that if I dedicate say 4 hours a day to the site, I know I'm not really achieving anything. I may have fun on the streets and with posting etc., but in years gone by you got out what you put in. The way things were last time I played seriously, you didn't, because the old accounts were so well established that even playing say 3-4 hours a day for 6 months made such a small dint that your account wouldn't be significantly better than a new account.