Duke walked to the streets carrying a Dr. Pepper crate and a rather large book, with a piece of paper sticking out the top about halfway through the book. Duke sat down the crate, and then to book on top of it. He stepped up and looked out over the bustling sidewalk, and busy street. Duke cleared his throat, and waved in an audience… 

"Loyalty, It is demanded, required, enforced, expected, but few actually follow it. Who are we suppose to be loyal to, Our Crew Leader, Godfather, or both? If contradicting orders are given who do we follow? If we don't follow a certain order are we a traitor? If our plans for power, control, and the need for change crosses those that gave us shelter, are we traitors? Or are they, the people who house us, the ones in the wrong? Now I know this is the point were some of you may be shouting history is written by the victor, that is true, but with the amount of news papers on the corners, and the radio programs on the airwaves it seems both sides and even the losers side is heard just as much as the victors. As the most recent war has shown us, no one is invincible. Now I'm not here to call out certain people, but I am here to discuss the actions. When it came down to it, most of us probably wanted to see a change in the upper structure, but when the time came it was clear where the sides were drawn. How is one to decide if turning on those that gave us shelter the right or wrong choice? These people that turn, can they labeled as traitors, or as heroes? Maybe if we look at the definition of traitor we could be a bit more enlightened."


Duke bent down and picked up the book. The cover was well worn, and Duke flipped to the page he had marked.


"According to my dictionary the definition of traitor is one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty."


This brings me to my next question, what is the obligation and duty of the Mafioso around these parts. You all should be able to recite what it is, and if not they are pinned up all over your HQ.


Duke held up his palm where self-inflicted laceration was just starting to heal…


"This is my dedication to my boss that I shall remain loyal to her until my death, I know many of you may have one of these, or a scar to remind you. So why are certain people applauded for being a traitor?

Although there may be many gray areas in terms of loyalty, but there is one definite.  You should always be loyal to your crew leader, your family, and put them before everything and anybody else. 

Crew leader and godfather relationships are more complicated, but one should never leave their family until their last dying breaths.

In the most recent war, my opinion is that many people were disloyal and flee'd when things began to turn dim. 

From a distance, doogle listens to Duke speak and chews on his words for a long while before speaking his own opinion.

It has been widely debated on a routine basis - where does loyalty reside, with Crew Leaders of with the Godfather? I think the answer is both. We have all chosen this way of life and have also choose who to live our lives under. Our intent, from the beginning, is to thrive under the leadership, guidance and protection of both our family and our city -- CL and GF. 

Over time, it becomes more and more clear who you would follow into war. Of course, this depends on your situation. My particular situation was very clear. Did some leaders "betray" their Godfathers? Maybe. But you know what -- it was for the benefit of whom they are loyal to -- the little guys like me and you. If a Godfather puts forth the effort I see my Crewleader putting forth, then it may be a difficult decision. 

Do I fight for a stranger who leads with an iron fist, uses power to threaten his own, has never spoken to me or my father, and fails to effective communicate with an entire city? Or do I follow a man with a vision, with whom I communicate with on a regular basis and trust with my life. The answer is clear. 

Lighting a cigar, doogle ponders on his own words..

A lavish leader with ample protection who feasts on steak and allows those under him to simply maintain, even in these booming times, is sure to fail. The discontent amongst the masses is sure to boil over at some point - and it did. I consider those who led the charge ... led the change ... as revolutionists. Heroes. Real Leaders. 

Now I may catch fire for my opinion but understand it is only that - my opinion. Positions of power only possess power because those beneath that possession allow it. Keep the underlings happy and remain at the top. 

I know where my loyalty resides. It is with my city and my Crew Leader. Will that change in the future? Maybe - I will be loyal to whomever is deserving, whether that be a Godfather or a Crew Leader. Above all else though, my loyalty is and will always be with the city itself regardless of who is running it. Just so happens recent history forced me to gravitate me towards the better leader. 

I think your first loyalty should be to thig thing of ours.  Sometimes, in this thing of ours, the boss or bosses need taken out.  When that's done - is it always disloyalty?  If so, a lot of the very high ranking people in the 8 cities right now are disloyal.  Loyalty is subjective.  Prem and Roman were Godfathers but their own Dons turned against them - those Dons were loyal to their city - and in order to enact that loyalty, that had to turn against the Godfathers.

But bluntly, in this occassion, they remained loyal.  They didn't desert their Godfathers; their Godfathers deserted them.

Interesting speech SuperDuke.

When it comes down to loyalty, firstly you must start off by being loyal to yourself. If you cannot even be loyal to yourself and your very own morals then there is no way you can possibly show loyalty to another. Loyalty doesn't need to be drilled into us, any respectful mobster will automatically apply this to their way of life. Loyalty can then be applied to your friends, family and city. Let's face it, you need not shot loyalty to anyone outside of your home city. We all know how to be both loyal and dis-loyal, it is common sense.

As for the traitor matter, well, it depends on the situation. Lets take the recent war for example, would you class the cities of NY and Chicago as traitors because your dictionary says: "the definition of traitor is one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty."

Were those leaders traitors to their Godfather? Yes, they was. But most importantly if they never done what they did they would have been traitors to their individual families. They would have failed their duty of care to their members, themselves included actually.

They traitored one individual man but were heroes to hundreds. That is the important difference, they done what they needed to do.

Another example would be someone leaving their family, setting up and going what we call 'rogue' That is dis-loyalty. The person who put the rogue in a bodybag would be the hero, also loyal as he protected innocent people whose lives were at risk.

Your family should ALWAYS come first, before anything else.

Loyalty, It is demanded, required, enforced, expected, but few actually follow it. Who are we suppose to be loyal to, Our Crew Leader, Godfather, or both? If contradicting orders are given who do we follow?

Situations are always the reason of why we should choose which side. First off if you dont like where you are why not leave? Secondly you have to choose between your Crew Leader and Godfather? Well why would that be what did the other one do that makes the other one so angry? Originally the case was you always side with your Godfather but i think throughout time bloodlines raised together became close friends and that whole idea that one deserves more loyalty than the other became a part of the past. See everyone will pretty much say the same thing, Oh Godfather of course! Even if its crew leader i still find it bull. You should find loyalty to the life not a man in a bold suit. If you dont want to put on your suit and get into these streets everyday somethings wrong. I dont believe loyalty should be requried or demanded or enforced that sounds like a tyrant i think loyalty should be freely given something that is earned through the trust of both parties. The fact is that the crew leader is the one that nurses the young mafioso and the godfather is the one who allows them to become made men. Its the godfather however that provides the most protection for the city and for his followers, but if the godfather never steps down from his place on high to speak with the lowly of his city how will anyone ever be loyal to such a man? If he can not forgive the past bloodlines mistakes and would rather have one as an earner than a friend how can one be loyal? The loyalty in my opinon shouldnt go to the one with the most units, or the one who has absolutely no life so he just trains his gun all day, it should go to the actual leader. The actual leader is the one who makes people feel wanted and included in the family. That when they put that suit of theirs on they always appreciated even if they have a horrible speech impediment. The true leader will risk everything so that his family will actually have a good time wearing their suit.

According to my dictionary the definition of traitor is one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty.

Every crew leader is sworn to help make his or her city prosper and to protect it with their life. They now know if war comes there is a bulls eye on their back, if a rogue strikes they are a possiblity to be taken out. Their life is on the line as well. To find people willing to be a crew leader that actually recognizes the work that will be before them and the possible dangers of losing all you have worked for is huge. The crew leaders obligation is the city not just the godfather and the duty of serving him. The leader recognizes whats infront of him not what could be infront of him and so he takes his moments with that which is on his plate and he provides for it. How can one be false to an obligation when he is actually bettering the life of so many mafioso? The actual betrayel of trust lies in that of the leader who watches his people moan and groan about how boring life is and how he wishes for change.

This is my dedication to my boss that I shall remain loyal to her until my death, I know many of you may have one of these, or a scar to remind you. So why are certain people applauded for being a traitor?

I guess the real question here is what did the "traitors" actually betray? The definition you carry is different from mine. My definition of traitor is; one who manipulates another for his own gain, this is because the idea of friendship and loyalty never existed so he puts on a facade to hide the realness of him and objectifies the other. If a gangster goes and shoots another gangster the crew leader immediately kills him and everyones ok with that but when the realization comes that a godfather is actually hurting the way of life rather than contributing positivity to it, he is the one who betrayed everyone else. Let me answer this question now, people are applauded for being a traitor because they have betrayed, to your definition, the ways of the old.

There is something people seem to forget around here. What we do isn't a peaceful job. I can tell you now we won't be at the front of the line to get into heaven after we die. The world of mafia is a ruthless place and we are here for the easy money and the thrill of the ride. Nothing wrong with being loyal, but undying loyalty may well just get you killed if declared to the wrong person. I saw mentions in the streets about our way of life being compared with a Shepard and his herd of sheep. To me that is complete crap. If anything we are more of a wolf pack.

To the wolf pack all that matters is the overall well-being of the pack. Of course there is a leader, the alpha wolf. The other wolves follow the alpha wolfs orders. The Alpha wolf leads the packs on hunts, it keeps the other young wolves in check, it protects its pack and their territory. When the alpha wolf leads well the pack is happy and content. But what happens when the pack starts to slack? Food starts to get short, others of the pack begin to die. Other packs start to invade their lands. The alpha wolf isn't doing their job anymore, they have become old, slow, their vision is blurry. They no longer lead the pack on hunts. Do the other wolves just sit there and accept the slow decline of the pack they love? No, a young wolf rises from the ranks with the support of some if not most of the pack and the old alpha wolf is removed.

The power of each crew leader lies within the people they lead. They don't serve you but you serve them. If you fuck things up they shouldn't just accept that there is nothing else that can be done. They should instead remove what is causing the problems. I'd expect my own people to remove me if I ever become slack and IA causing the city to suffer. It is what is to be expected if you fail your people. At the end of the day we are all supporting our own city, we want our city to grow and prosper in order for ourselves to prosper and we will remove anything that effects it in a negative way. It is only natural. I will continue to work my ass off for my guys and my city and will do anything I have to again to remove what hurts the city I love.

This is a pointless conversation as loyalty is not important around here anymore. Sure people will twist things to make it look like loyalty is one of their core values but it's not and it really doesn't even exist in these parts anymore for the most part. Of course no one is going to admit they're not loyal but actions speak louder than words and we've seen people turn on their brothers and sisters time and again to save their asses. Sure there are a few that remain loyal but with every person that turns on their leader or their city it makes it that much easier for more to follow that trend. The bottom line is if you're counting on loyalty, you've already got one foot in the grave.

Mr. Kanamycin, im not sure people fled because of fear i think people switched sides because their loyalties may have change as well. When the people they were loyal to died, they no longer felt loyal to the side they origianlly joined.

Mr Doogle, im sure this has been debated quiet often, but i felt this was the appropriate time with the recent war. I agree with your statement our loyalties do lie with both the crew leader and GF, but they just may come at different times. My father was Loyal to his CL, then she died, so his loyalties went to the next person in power above him, which would have been the late Godfather -Premeir. War proves a lot of thing and especialy who we align with.

Mr. KukuJunior, I see you are loyal to this thing of ours, and that may be admirable or something. Don't you think if you put your loyalties back into a crew, or leader you would prosper a little better?

Thor God of Thunder, you brought up a valid point about being loyal to yourself before you can be loyal to someone else. I like it. I think i am loyal to my family, acting GF, and my city.Maybe i am too loyal, and i spread it to thin? is that possible? I guess being loyal and or a traitor is definitely a subject/ perspective issues.

The_Singer, i never claimed to be unhappy in my city, in fact i am quite happy where i am. My father left some question in his journal, and i felt it as my duty to him to come to the streets and ask them on his behalf. However i can agree with almost everything else you said

i have heard some pretty good ones so far. Thank you Don Stallion for coming out to the streets and shedding some light on this from the side of the "attackers" it is much appreciated. I think the wolf pack analogy really explains a lot of what goes on in the mafia, and like Don Stallion mentioned we are not all about fun and games. This is the mafia, and we kill people for a living. So this makes me think the being loyal and having loyal members is a delicacy, a rarity, but not something necessary. Do we even need loyal people at all? Surely even people like rogues or groups trying to change the stagnation of the game have to have some form of loyalty, or do they just gather together in the common goal?

Now that i have spent some time rading through these opinions it seems you all are echoing similiar views. Does anyone else have a different view on loyalties?

Stan JR steps onto the box.

" My Father died during the war his Loyalty was to Cadoras and Cadoras family 1st and formost, Now Cadoras had his reasons to side with the Horde that i have no doubt as did many others that i can respect, Theres no kid gloves in this thing of ours. The takedown was Buisness pure and simple no matter what way you slice it. Now switching sides mid battle? That sickens me to the pit of my Stomach just to save your own skin That my freinds is INEXCUSABLE not only does it show lack of LOYALTY, Its cowardly those peole should not have been given a home let Alone still be breathing. How can you respect that?"

Most of the times people join a crew based on the interaction with that crewleader without regard to the Godfather of the city?  Who would think to message a Godfather and say, "I'm think of joining So-And-So, but I want to see what you're like as a Godfather first."  Not gonna happen.  The crew should be loyal to their crewleader.  The crewleader should be loyal to the Godfather.  It will trickle down from there.  If the crew is loyal to their leader, and their leader is loyal to the Godfather, it stands to reason that the crew is loyal to the Godfather.

However, if the crewleader should go against the Godfather, then that crew falls into an interesting state of affairs . . . loyalty to your boss, or your boss' boss?  There's the rub.  I really am not sure what is right.  If I were a crewleader in the midst of a rebellion, and one of my members felt their loyalty to the Godfather was greater, are they a traitor to a traitor which means they're loyal?

As far as personal definitions of words, words have meanings for a reason . . .

One who manipulates another for their own gain.

. . . Is not the definition of a traitor.  That's just a woman.  At least the ones who hang out with me.

Don Stallion used the comparison of wolves and that reminds me of a saying i believe sums it up perfectly

'you feed the wolves or the wolves will feed on you'

I tend to believe in loyalty to firstly my crewleader then secondly my godfather and third the city i live in.   At present i have neither of the first two as i weigh up my options. 

My uncle started fighting under one leader who died early on in the war, as he could not be housed in his own city he quickly moved to the cities closest ally while attempting to set up crews in the former city to house the homeless.  This a rogue move of the time which gave birth to two new crews but both had served the city well and deserved the reward especially the hoped boosts they could gain from running a crew.

He continued to fight the war from a neighbouring city keeping his loyalty to the city, crewleader and godfather.  He eventually died but has he had given his oath when he got made he believed in this as his loyalty and i would hope to be the same if i decide this is the life for me.

To me you have to not just be loyal to those you are serving, it is a two way street where your boss will protect, develop and motivate you; and you would bring to the crew your skills and further develop them to serve the family better down the line.  A family is such a complex thing as need multiple skills, abilities to run it but for its survival loyalty can be shown on simple levels as following rules or kicking up tribute.

The problem is this how does protecting your family change with time and how far will you go to protect them?

My uncle served as i would knowing the dangers down the line he fought with the idea of protecting the long term goals of the city and the hope of protecting the members.  With more and more people dissapearing for their comments in the street even if inconsequential to others or just due to paranoia that they may done something it made a dangerous business worse.  I think the truth of the matter is, although my uncle's city was lucky not to lose members to the purges for street chatter or paranoia sooner or later some excuse would appear down the line.

As a business the combined cities working together can offer great direction, wealth, achievements but when one part breaks, or the rules dont apply to them suddenly you have to take a look and re-evaluate whats best for you and your members future.  The end result is not gonna be something everyone will agree with but if they serve a family whether associate or made member they should remember the protection they have been afforded so far.  A families strength should be it's loyalty and unity and i believe those of rank should go down with the ship at least protecting the honour they were given or it becomes meaningless.

I understand people retiring from their business is a form of loyalty when their boss dies, personally if a boss feels slightly by their godfather i do not see the retirement as loyalty to their members if it leaves them vulnerable.  If however they re-house their members first and retire and will protect them, or they decide to strike against the godfather i can understand the loyalties changed due to the conditions they live under.

Is a hard choice but loyalties will always change due to conditions, allies and landscapes of power.  Gun accidents will happen, people will retire and your circle of friends will increase and decrease but if your not willing to die down the line for your family or fight to defend it...maybe your in the wrong business.