FattyFats bops onto the street. A bit wary after the hysteria created by his last speech, he hopes this one creates just as much discussion, with a lot less controversy. In the background, George and Bruce are sitting quietly, listening.

Recently, a young thug came out calling Pharol a tyrant for killing her mother. Her mothers crime? Leaving the Sindicato Di Forza to join a family in Las Vegas. I won't going into the rights and wrongs of this, or the actions Pharol took (which were correct) as there is already a group of people speaking about this elsewhere. This situation has made me think of a few things. Name,y, what is the relationship between an associate and their family?

Where does the loyalty of an associate lie?

• An associate is recruited by their sponsor
• They pay tribute to their sponsor
• They speak to their sponsor on a daily basis
• The majority of the time, their CL or upper structure will barely speak to them
• Nor will they know who they are, or likely care
• For all intents and purposes, the sponsor is reasonable for their associate. Helping them get to Made Man

So taking the above into account, who should the associate be loyal to? And likewise, how responsible should the sponsor be for their associate?

For example, if the sponsor, for some reason, moves family, should the associate move across with him? Afterall, its unlikely he will know much about his family, but will know a lot, and be loyal, to his sponsor.

Likewise, if the associate is a naughty boy, should the sponsor be responsible and punished for his actions?

If a leader dies, should an associate move to whichever new family along with his sponsor?

Often, those mafioso who have no family history know no different. All families are the same. It is the sponsor who helps them.

These are just a couple of minor points. So the question stands...

Where does an associates relationship lie?

Well to be honest, the associate should be loyal to the Family they are associated with. The main reason for this being that it is the Family giving that gangster its protection, not the sponsor. Yes the sponsor is the one who reached out to them, taught them the ropes, and kept them safe, but he/she did that for the family and as an extension of the family.

I think ultimately an associates loyalty should lie with the family as a whole, not just to their sponsor. This loyalty between an associate and a specific family is gained through the sponsor, who should afterall be unquestionably loyal to the family and its head, seeing as they're a fully fledged member. That's my take on it anyway.

As for the punishment that has to be doled out if the associate royally buggers up? That's all dependant on what they've done. Less serious indiscretions, a fine for the both should suffice in my opinion, more serious offences? Death for the both of them. But then again this point is extremely subjective.

And really more often than not the sponsor is one of the most well known and trusted people to a associate so I'd expect them to follow that sponsor should their leader come to an unnatural end.

Dutch_Man listens to FattyFats Speech with a mix of curiosity and confusion. Curiosity to see what others of the community will say and Confusion as to why a question needs to be asked in the first place, as the answer seems so obvious to himself, he spies a pedestal FattyFats stood on and decides to step up and answer this question.

Hello ladies and gentelman of our fine world, my name is Dutch_Man, I have a long history on these shores but alas I have been absent for some years and coming back home I find new changes and still the same old questions! As far back as I can remember loyalty to ones family begins the moment the person decides to accept the protection of that family.

A sponsor's responsibility is to get to know the person he/she is looking to recruit, in most cases I would assume this will be someone with a previous bloodline the sponsor knows personally and can there for give an accurate opinion as to the benefit that recruit will have with the family. Now it is also the Sponsors responsibility to make certain the associate understands what is expected of them and the meaning of being with the family.

An associates role is to get to know the families that are around before deciding which they would like to join, once they have joined a family and written thier name on that bold line thier loyalty is to the Leader of that family...

Of course this is my take on it, and again my bloodline is old and set firm, maybe times have changed, I guess I will find out when others step up and let known their own opinion.

Dutch_Man stands back and allows others to stand and make their voices heard, while walking back to his table he searches vigilantly for the Mafia Returns Tribune only to find disappointment as it is no where to be found....

An associates loyalty should be more on the sponsors side above all else. Often the CL doesn't have much of a say who the sponsors bring in when they first bring them in. The rise and fall of most of them goes hand and hand with the sponsor who snagged them.

While there are rules to the family which you're not officially part of, the sponsor should be laying down the laws and making them known. The world for that associate hinges on the sponsors ability to communicate the ins and outs of OC. That there forms a bond above all else, everything changes once Made of course but for the time being the sponsor is in all honesty the "leader".

rw318, I mean no disrespect but I can not disagree more, Granted the Sponsor does interact with the Associate closer than a Crew Leader but that is the role of the Sponsor. If you take on the role of recruiter for your family then you are recruiting for your FAMILY, not your own interests. The Family is what protects that associate from harm. This is why you pledge your LOYALTY to the FAMILY and not the Sponsor.

The bonds between Sponsor and Associate are suppose to be close to make the Family stronger. Those early bonds are what lead to someone becoming a MadeMan in this thing of ours.

The Sponsor is a representitive of the Families Leader, not the leader him/her self. Blurring the lines of leadership leads to broken families which in turn lead to fallen families.

In the same sense the sponsor protected the associate from harm by bringing them under his wing. You know who he's an associate for, what family his sponsor works for so he's left alone. He's not a part of anything until he gets his button, he's slaving for the sponsor who in turn kicks up to the boss.

Sure he's working to become a part of the family, for the time being though the sponsor is what keeps him safe. He vouched for the associate so the associate is "his" (responsibility).

The sponsors loyalty is to the boss, the associates loyalty is to the sponsor, it all evens out in the end.

I am sorry, on this issue I guess we must agree to disagree, My loyalty lies with my family, my Sponsor may be who I go to concerning family questions and guidance but it is my Leader who offers protection... If protection is something my Sponsor could offer, would he not have his own Family?

Everyone in the family should have a role to play to make that family stronger, the bonds between each member are what make the family strong. my connection to my Sponsor binds me to my leader.

With your interpitation, if my Sponsor were to decide to go against the family then I being his associate should follow.... If that is the case then loyalty is held together by a short leash unless the Leader of theFamily does his/her own recruiting.

At the point in time you don't have a family because you're not officially part of anything is what I'm trying to get too. I don't have one either, my loyalty lies with that DonMorrison fellow and his loyalty is to his family and city of STL. So indirectly I'm loyal to those things as well.

You can always choose for yourself in that instance, I don't see loyalty as blindly following someone into whatever they want to take you into.

I see associates as nothing more than that, associates. They have nothing to do with the family, they're simply the errand boy of a man or woman who has made their bones with the resident family in that city or district. The associate is learning the ropes, the bare basics of what will be expected of them should they gain a footing and earn a position amongst the family.

Several people hit up on some points I'm in agreement with. Associates work for a family, but aren't official part of the organization. Given that, it's in the associates best interest to useful and loyal to his/her sponsor. The sponsor is the door to membership, I'd expect the family head to weigh the opinion of the sponsor when it comes to time to consider the associate for membership.

On the same token, sponsors need to be wary of who they fetch off the street. An embarrassing associate or two will reflect on the sponsor, which may reflect on the family as a whole.

I'm also in agreement, when/if a family dies, the assiociate should remain connected to the sponsor. (OOC: Realism)