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| A Leader and his Captain | Started by: Fiddler on Jun 22, '08 07:53 |
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The relationship between a leader and his captain... I have had some more thoughts. Yah you all shout out! After the recent death of Callum, something was bugging me, and I couldnt work out what it was. Then, just as I was making my tuna-mayo sandwich, it hit me, and now I am going to attempt to explain it. Callum was a captain of the UN. K-Dawg was his leader. Now when the war was going on, K-Dawg took a step back, as he agreed with the fact Callum should go. But what for his members? Callums members were part of the UN. K-Dawg was their leader as well. But did they recieve protection? I have seen, in the past, a leader turn round to a gangster and say 'sorry, no space in my HQ, but join my captain and you will still be a apart of the family.' So lets say Jimmy, he asked to join K-Dawg, K-Dawg told him to join Callum. Now all Jimmy wanted to be was part of the UN. He respect the family, respected the values. So whilst he was upset he couldnt get into K-Dawgs family, he was pleased to still be part of the UN. Now Callum did what Callum did, and all of a sudden, Jimmy find himself taking shots. But why? He is a member of UN, and his leader is K-Dwag, not Callum, who is merely is captain. If a leaders captain has done wrong, and the leader agrees he should be taken down, should the leader still be obliged to look after the captains members, protect them? Afterall, they are still part of HIS family. He is still there LEADER. Yet more foten then not, he will sit their idleing whilst HIS members are considered colateral damage. Surely it would be better for the Leader to demand that he release all his members, or be HQ'd (ooc: I dont know if this can happen, but if a captain is considered as being under his leader, then its a suggestion for the gods? All I am trying to say is does a LEADER of a FAMILY have an OBLIGATION to his captains members to protect them? Afterall, they are FAMILY as well Thoughts? ps: this is not an attack on K-Dawg (it is jsut a recent example), just thoughts of the relationship between a Leader, a captain, his members, and should the leader try and protect his captains members? |
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When the gods have a captain set up so that by all of the god's ways he is truly a captain, the leader has the power to hq his captain thereby protecting the members, being able to take them in or ask other families to do so. unfortunately in this case 2 things occured, the gods have been too busy on Mount Olympus to have done their part in the captaincy and also Callum's leader was not on when he did this. Also, these members chose to ollow Callum despite K-Dawg's family not being involved, so basically they were part of the fight and taken out accordingly. You have a few valid points however -interesting for discussion, if you are a member of a sub-cre, Captaincy and he does something without his leader's knowledge or permission, do you refuse? After all, he has the power to rid the world of you and he is the highest chain of command in your part of the crew. So many potential opinions Would love to see some more discussion regarding this |
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| Reply by: Alessia at Jun 22, '08 08:01 | |
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Fiddler, I realize that the point of this speech isn't to touch on the details of the situation with Callum and The United Nations. However, I do feel it necessary to educate you on some of those details that you were either misinformed about or made up.
uum, when did 'K-Dawg take a step back?' I just need to point out that K-Dawg doesn't even know his Captain went rogue and died yet...as he has been away on business for a couple days..so how could he have "taken a step back as he agreed with [it]"...I know I know, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that when you say K-Dawg, you are talking about the entire family. Even if that is the case, your still mistaken as I personally killed one of the first five people that died in that war. as far as "not protecting members of the family" I agree that it sucks, i wish i could have saved them all. but how many were available to be saved...would Cal have auth'd the drop so K-Dawg could pick them up...if not did they have money...even if all these things mentioned worked out, and people were able to get out of his family unharmed...then what? They would be unsponsored, because as I said before the boss is on vacation...and the RHM was sleeping. We all know that making the family smaller makes the Boss easier to kill, I wasn't willing to allow a Rogue to continue all night killing other families because I want to save a my family...who is to say that my folks are more important than, say Animals family? In my eyes they are, but would Animal or Jonnie or anyone else risk their families lives, so I could save members of mine? I doubt it. I would also like to add, to the others that think we "sold out our family" or "Kissed Jonnie's ass so he wouldn't kill us too" Your fucked up in the head....find me ONE leader that would take the side of a Rogue that came from their family...They wouldn't they would be disappointed and they would punish...because THATS what you do. A gangster in your family takes a shot at a sponsored Earner in another family...you fucking kill him...just because Callum was wearing a nicer suit doesn't mean this rule doesn't apply. it fucking sucked...and I hated it. but, rules are rules...and he broke them. end of. |
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| Reply by: PR_Rep at Jun 22, '08 09:30 | |
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"Fiddler, I realize that the point of this speech isn't to touch on the details of the situation with Callum and The United Nations." after saying that, how about you just stick to what i was asking. i do not know the full facts of the k-dawg/callum/JR fued and what exactly happened. I WAS USING IT AS A LOOSE EXAMPLE. However, I will take into account for the future that I should get my examples 100% factual so as to not get you ranting again. You seem to of only skirted over the issue that I was addressing. I am sure that K-Dawg (using it as an EXAMPLE) would of had the cash to help the majority of Callums crew buy-out. This wouldve been simple. As Ive said, I am not here to debate the EXACT situation, but to debate what should happen when the captain go's against the leader. but if you missed that and are unwilling to have a constructive debate about what YOU think a leader should do when a captain desobeys, then thats ok. Thanks for your input. |
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| Reply by: Fiddler at Jun 22, '08 09:59 | |
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The family head should have disciplined his own Capo. If that wasn't an option (and I assume in this example it wasn't) then only the rogue Capo (which is the term being given to this example) should have felt the consequences. The members belonged to the United Nations. If they condoned the actions of the Capo, they should have supported him. If they did not they should have removed him with minimal loss of life to their members. As it happens I guess most of the Captain's members were sent there by the head of the family. |
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| Reply by: Argon at Jun 22, '08 10:04 | |
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Ideally Fiddler, what you said is correct. A captain is an extension of the Boss's family, and such, the Boss is obligated to protect all members of the family. This isn't the first time we have heard that a Captain went against the wishes of the Boss, and I hope this will be the last time it happens. If only the Captain was at fault for whatever reason, I think it would be reasonable to only take out the Captain, and message in the meantime the rest of the members to get back home, while telling everyone else that none of the tagged members should be shot. However, when you have the following situations where 1. killing members weakens one's defense (so that the leader/rogue can be killed) and 2. Several people besides the Captain are involved in the plot, it grows increasingly difficult to distinguish and spare members who had no involvement. Sometimes, like PR_Rep said, to save the lives of many, you have to take the lives of a few, and hope that they understand what happened. How can we prevent this from happening? I don't think we can; that lies between the Boss and his/her Captain, to be able to trust that the Capt. will serve with the Family's best interests in mind. |
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| Reply by: Kira_Esposito at Jun 22, '08 10:38 | |
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Kira, It's easy to condone the killing of your family when you're the only one that was allowed to survive, huh? You seem to have jumped ship with ease. Hands Kira a dictionary 'Honor' is under 'H', you can find 'Loyalty' all on your own. |
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| Reply by: TimmyToothpick at Jun 22, '08 18:48 | |
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"Sometimes, like PR_Rep said, to save the lives of many, you have to take the lives of a few, and hope that they understand what happened." Unbelievable. You were the LHW of a family and you're standing on a street corner condoning the killing of that family..... You should never, ever be allowed to forget your lack of integrity. |
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| Reply by: TimmyToothpick at Jun 22, '08 19:16 | |
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TIMMEH!! Sorry, just had to say that once. "It's easy to condone the killing of your family when you're the only one that was allowed to survive, huh? You seem to have jumped ship with ease." and "Unbelievable. You were the LHW of a family and you're standing on a street corner condoning the killing of that family..... You should never, ever be allowed to forget your lack of integrity." When most of the "crew" is shooting against their own family, and I say against because the UN family was against Callum, what other option do you think there was? Not shoot Callum's members when most of them if not all were going against K-Dawg's and United Nations wishes? Callum's RHM told the crew they were at war but he failed to tell them Callum fucked up and that the war was never sanctioned by the United Nations, so yes...all of them were casualties of war, all of those who followed Callum's and his RH's orders instead of the orders given by the head family. And quite frankly, the only one (or was there more?) that survived was actually the one(s) following said orders by the head family. Loyalty, Honor and integrity still intact. And fact is, Callum took in one of the CP hitters to his family when he started his little war, just that is a slap in the face to his Boss, taking in someone that the UN family and the other families considered a threat to their way of life, and also caused the death of a newly authed Captain. |
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| Reply by: Valiant_Luciano at Jun 22, '08 21:35 | |
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Its a tough one.. In reality, the leader (K-Dawg) or his RHM should have disciplined his captain (Callum). I do not know the details about if Domanic was online, but I believe he could have been HQ wacked by the RHM? It gets tough because he was out on business (K-Dawg), but if high ranking officals in his family worked with those taking Callum down then I guess its legit.. As long as every other family is not killing K-Dawg's Captains family without ranked officals in the United Nations knowing - then sometimes what has to be done has to be done. Did the whole family need to be slaughtered..Well thats the opinions of every mafioso..Some will say they were all a threat and sure we can run with that.. reality is sometimes different but what is done is done and noone will come back to life from the dead (well not usually..except for our high ranked mafioso who are very young) Respecting the family of another and being able to disciple your own members is priority in our world..sometimes threats must be killed quickly..but then that depends who threatens you :) |
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| Reply by: Alonzo at Jun 23, '08 00:42 | |
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Valiant_Luciano, Kira was one of a handful of 'real' members of Callum's family (i.e. Made and above) and was nominally his LHW. She basically fucked off to one of the families Callum was at war with and left the remaining family associates to be slaughtered. 'Cowardly, dishonorable and morally corrupt' would be five words to describe her actions perfectly. Or are we now saying that integrity, loyalty and honor only apply when you agree with your bosses actions? How will Animal know that Kira won't do the same to him if he makes a decision that she doesn't like? Anyway, I've made my feelings on her actions perfectly clear and I'm far from the only one to feel that way. |
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| Reply by: TimmyToothpick at Jun 23, '08 05:48 | |
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You don't seem to get it through that thick skull of yours. Callum was at war against her AND his own family as well, so she chose not to fight her own family which at the time was United Nations.... You mean to tell me not going against her own family, is 'Cowardly, dishonorable and morally corrupt' as you so eloquently put it? Your priorities are completely fucked up if that's the way you think, Callum was a Captain, not a CL, he was never ordered to shoot at Jonnie Reese and start a war he could not win, that was his choice, and he doomed his "crew" members to death because of this, he hid behind his protection while his crew was slaughtered, if you want to speak of 'Cowardly, dishonorable and morally corrupt' then there's your man to aim those five words at. Had he not so cowardly hid and fucked off for the night to let his members die one by one, he would have been dead and most of them would have found new homes. Now... How come this was never brought up before? When Intervention also a Captain went awol and killed Cab Tufting, all of those Made Men and above who joined different families from Tufting's family, and all of those Made Men who did not fight by Intervention's side (because his leader PrinceOfCheese was NOT warring Cab Tufting) and joined different families after Intervention's death, she was one among those back then, so since you seem to be stuck on this shit now when clearly you have no reason to, why was it okay back then, was it because every family was lead by a CP or a CP ass kissing moron? Give me a good reason to why you open your mouth now and I'll shut it for you. Let's not forget all the Made Men and above who fucked off to different families from TheLoveDoctor's family, where's your bitching there? Yeah, it's clear that you have something against Kira, and not the shit you seem to try and preach about, if it was about honor, loyalty and integrity you would have kept your shit objective and not singled out someone who actually did the right thing and followed orders from her family and not the renegade Captain. |
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| Reply by: Valiant_Luciano at Jun 23, '08 06:30 | |
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So she didn't leave United Nations entirely then? Rather than use the "everyone else does it so why can't Kira" line (which is bullshit btw), call the other guilty ones out? Especially the ones who were part of the family leadership before they deserted the sinking ship. PS I didn't have anything again Kira before she ran like a coward. Always seemed like a decent person before. And how, exactly, are you going to 'shut my mouth'? Intimidating, you ain't. |
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| Reply by: TimmyToothpick at Jun 23, '08 08:45 | |
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You know what Timmy? Since you choose to talk out of your ass instead of talking based on facts, I was just going to let you run your mouth and expose you for the immature person that you are. But then I realized, maybe you don't know the facts. My orders came from the Boss of New Orleans to assist Callum with his CREW in New Orleans. So your argument of how I left the "Family" is incorrect. When I joined I.C.o.Ns, there was a lot of talk about Callum because of who he chose for his RHM. It was known through the grapevine Mikado had a grudge against Jonnie Reese, and people speculated that he would influence Callum to take action. I did my duties as a LHW, and after talking with the members, helped to organize a mugging competition that we were in the middle of when I got a mail from the RH saying that we were at war with Jonnie Resse. So, right there you could tell that even though I had the title of LHW, I wasn't seen as a "real" LH, for if we were going to war...don't you think I would have known before the general mass mail that went to all members? If you had a LH in your structure, wouldn't you inform him or her on what was taking place? Maybe you wouldn't; as I said you have proven yourself to be immature. As Pr_Rep has stated, Jonnie asked him about what was going on, etc. So, should have I stayed to fight with someone who went against the orders of the main family, even though my orders to even go to the Captain crew came from the boss himself, and to place me at my position? That is something I would like for you to answer, Timmy. My options. I could have bought out and set up a temporary shelter for the crew. But since I wasn't authorized to do so, I would have been perceived as a threat to both Callum and everyone involved in warring Callum. If I had stayed, it would have looked that I was affiliated with their actions, even though the war wasn't authorized by the Boss. Thus, the option that I took was to leave the crew. And since the Boss nor the RH was around at the time this was taking place, all of the leaders sent me invites. It was horrible that everyone died due to some personal grudges. I even spoke to a few of the children of the fallen crew members when they came back. I believe that they could have kept majority of the crew members alive. But as I said, it didn't help that neither the Boss or the RH was around to send invites, and that I wasn't the one calling the shots as to who lived and who should be killed. I think your main issue Timmy is that you don't understand the difference between "crew" and "family". You don't like my actions? That's fine, for you are entitled to your views and opinions. But for you to keep spewing shit about dishonor and lack of integrity? I'm pretty sure if you look in the mirror you will find the person staring back at you lacks honor, integrity, and everything else you wrongly accused me with. You want to talk about who has blood on their hands? (referring to what you said in my cookie shop in New Orleans) Try looking at who was responsible for all of those crew members dying. You don't give a shit about family or a crew; you just want to use it as a vehicle to have a go at me...for whatever reasons you have an issue with me. I seriously doubt it was about the crew since despite Luciano's previous statements, you seem to have a "broken record" mentality. |
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| Reply by: Kira_Esposito at Jun 23, '08 09:14 | |
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"PS I didn't have anything again Kira before she ran like a coward. Always seemed like a decent person before." Yes...that's why you chose to slate me in public, and harass me at my place of business. Rather than asking me what happened privately, and then make your conclusions after you had the viewpoints of all sides involved. Sure you didn't. |
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| Reply by: Kira_Esposito at Jun 23, '08 09:15 | |
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Did you mail everyone else in Callum's family to let them know that their LHW would be leaving in the middle of a war, why you were leaving and that it was pretty much every man for himself? Thought not. |
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| Reply by: TimmyToothpick at Jun 23, '08 09:54 | |
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"call the other guilty ones out?" I'm wondering why you haven't since you say this isn't anything against "Kira". But since you insist, I'll give you a name, even though he's dead already... you didn't ask for living names, Numbers4Glory the oh-so honorable leader. He's as guilty of this as any of the people you want me to name, but you knew that already. And since you're clearly the descendant of some disgruntled ex Callum member, we could call Callum's name to the stand as well. I mean after all, he WAS in a CP family before he switched sides during the war after his CL died, wasn't he? A bit hypocritical aren't you? Trying to smear the reputation of one person, while the one you say was what, disgraced by her actions? Is a man who did the same thing you accuse her of doing....? Lolz #3 ? |
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| Reply by: Valiant_Luciano at Jun 23, '08 10:01 | |
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There's another two. If it was for personal reasons and not ideological reasons then I think it's pathetic too. Any more? They're both dead now though so it seems a bit pointless telling them what I think. |
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| Reply by: TimmyToothpick at Jun 23, '08 10:05 | |
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"And how, exactly, are you going to 'shut my mouth'?" Done. |
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| Reply by: Valiant_Luciano at Jun 23, '08 10:09 | |
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