walking through the busy streets you notice a small crowd listening to a man speak outside a local cafe. The group were obviously mobsters and other passing civilians took one glance and quickened their pace to avoid them. Walking forward you recognise the Made Man from Detroit speaking, it is Leo.

As of late I have heard a lot on the matter of rank alongside with position of power. How can a gangster give orders to bosses just because he is a right hand? There is one simple answer, because he was chosen by your boss to give out orders. The hands chosen by leaders should have no obligation to be at any rank. They were not chosen because they make money or because they have achieved high rank status. They were chosen because they know how to run a family.

The skills required to run a family are completely different from the skills required to rank. I have met Consigs hands run worse families than thug hands. It's not about how many units you can carry, It's about knowing how to teach and build and inspire. These things make a good hand, regardless of rank.

As for the "inner circle" requirement of made man, I am sure that every Mafioso out there has one or another associate that they share most with. This person is usually a friend that has known your father and his father and so forth. Just because they may still be working towards their button does not mean they are any less trustworthy. It definitely does not mean they would make a bad hand.

This brings me back to my original point, who is to question any leader for having a non button hand? The hand positions are exactly what they imply, positions. Position and rank are separate things, rank is a show of what you have achieved whereas position is a role you take.

Leo finished and took a sip of his coffee.

I really agree with you as you probably noticed since you seem to be up to speed that we have been discussing this elsewhere.

I'm wondering, though... why didn't you voice your opinion over there since we were already discussing the topic?

Brilliantly put. I think this was a great input to the discussion that has been going on for a few days. I too was wondering why you didn't speak up during the other conversation, but I am glad it was said either way.

....we've really made a fucking mess out of ranks if people are talking like this. It's a shame.

SpookzBoyToy,

May I ask for you to elaborate on your thoughts a bit. What exactly do you mean?
What is your thoughts and feelings on this matter?

As the first head of the family to speak in this discussion, I think it would be very beneficial for us all to hear it from that side of the table.

What was the thought process, reasoning and overall factors that effecting your decision in selecting your hands?

Trunks approaches the growing crowd and listens to what Leo has to say, upon hearing him and a few others give there opinions on the matter he decides to step forward and voice his own suggestion on the topic.

Leo I think you pretty much summed it up there, knowledge is handed down from generation to generation, the more knowledge and trust a family line has gained I think defiantly betters you chances for landing such a position if a close friend or something makes it to the top.

Though I don’t find it the least bit respectable for anyone to question any leader of our cities about why they have a specific person set as there hand, id like to think there is some kind of reasoning being every decision and if that’s the choice they make then it should respected, even if you particularly might not like it.

Great speech leo.

Trunks walks back into the crowd and waits around to here some other opinions…

" ....we've really made a fucking mess out of ranks if people are talking like this. It's a shame."

I'm not sure if this is a reference to the speech I have made on the topic of ranks, or some sort of dig at my own personal rank and how the speech was given.

Either way I am happy with how I speak in these streets and most of the time receive positive comments. I am here just to give my opinion on the matter, I chose to give a speech rather than just comment.

To be honest Leo, attempting to start another conversation on a topic that has already received a large amount of attention is rather pitiful in my eyes. Rather than contributing to the discussion that was already at hand by doing this you have tried to do nothing more than to bring your own name into the spotlight rather than shed a differently light on the topic.

WhereWasI listens to the crowd and steps forward,

"Position and rank are separate things, rank is a show of what you have achieved whereas position is a role you take."

I don't know about SpookzBoyToy, but I find issue with that part specifically. Rank SHOULD mean much more than it does. Having the required units and occassionally speaking in the streets shouldn't be the necessary acheivements for rank. Rank and Position are supposed to be based in a leaders utmost respect and trust for the individual and nothing more. I believe that "position" is one of the highest forms of rank a CL can give their member. Sorry if I don't believe in easy roads to high ranks and that offends some people, but after you start putting in large amounts of hours supporting a leader in ways that no one will ever hear of you'll understand why some people are disgusted at the current rank system.

There are many ways you can prove loyalty to your leader, I understand, but the current standards seem low to me. It's no one leader's fault, but how many families can say that all of their made men are capable of handling minor inter-family problems? How many people would say every Consigliere or Don over the past year is or was unquestionably capable of handling little pick pocket squabbles or communicating with another family to enforce some rule or agreement in a professional manner? It saddens me to see what rank means to people nowadays.

And before I get another group of mails telling me I shouldn't offend the CLs for saying there are people with undeserved ranks, let me say something. The point of a leader is to make difficult decisions. A leader makes decisions often enough that they're usually going to do what's best for their family in the short run at the expense of the entire community, which isn't a bad characteristic. Mistakes happen people, if expressing a view that CLs make mistakes offends a CL I'm sorry but I don't care. I respect CLs for the work they've done to get their position, but don't tell yourself CLs don't make mistakes. Any one who does is either lying to themselves or a blind kiss ass.

P.S. I wish I could say all that in one sentence like SpookzBoyToy's bloodline has done regularly from the time I've known him. If I had to try, I'd say that highlited statement shows you don't understand that rank and position used to be based in the same things and should be closesly related. I don't want to offend you but sugar coating it really doesn't get the point across as well.

P.P.S. Down with the Scouse Monkey Lord! No matter what we argue over in the streets, that is a far more important problem than any I've seen in my young life time.

Dante, if you listen to the speech made entitled "Hands and Hired help" you would realise that the two views on the subject put forward are opposites. Why would I argue with someone else's view when I can come out here and give my own?

I am very much in the camp that 'Hands' should be button men.

I know that it is up to the leader and he wants his most trusted mates to be his Hands. I get it. As people have pointed out knowledge is passed from generation. New people need to learn the ropes. The ONLY way they learn the ropes is by doing the job. Seeing people arrive on these shores and move in to positions of great power is not going to help that.

I know I stand here against it. But I do understand that these people have to be trust worthy. A Hand being an idiot can lead to a quick death so why wouldn't you have someone you don't trust?

But again. As said before. Ranks are now pretty much meaningless. They are just ways forward for the amount of drugs you can ram in your pockets and the little perks you get. It shouldn't be that way but the way the world is now set up and run it would be very very hard to get away from that. Mores the shame but other circumstances, understandable circumstances, dictate that thats the way it has to be.

My opinion on the matter is that rank outside of a few exceptions should play a MAJOR factor in damn near EVERYTHING, especially positions of power. It's the way the world is supposed to turn but we've managed to knock it off it's axis and blur every line that's supposed to be bold. Rank is what we strive for, you strive to gain the respect, money and power that comes with it.

Lets not make excuses for something we've completely fucking butchered. With rank, is supposed to come positions of power. We're handing out power to nobodies and promoting people for shits and fucking giggles. We're destroying something sacred and making excuses as to why it doesn't matter anymore. The thought process is defying our reality.

With rank also comes trust, you should not have a consigliere or boss in your family that you barely know. Those are more so ranks of trust than MM and capo but you still should have a damn decent amount of trust in those as well. You should know their dedication to the family is unwavering.

What we lack is communication from the top down to the bottom. I understand it's hard to keep in touch with 50 people but that's where a structure comes into play. Also, people who are serious will come to the CL or stay in contact with the hands often, which will eventually lead to the CL. Everyone is fighting to be "seen" that's what this is all about.

Also, if rank was an unimportant factor how come thugs aren't running families? A CL is in a position of power. That should just about settle it.



This issue has really only ever been a bother to me when talking on established crews. There's obviously a massive difference between an established crew and one still trying to find it's way. It's hard to build up trust through the ranks when there are none.