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| Respect - goes both ways? | Started by: Kira_Esposito on Jul 09, '08 04:37 |
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While waiting for someone to pick her up, Kira got caught up in a conversation with a few people outside an apartment building. Thinking of what had happened the other night, she decided to bring it up in the conversation. I was at a bar the other night, and I heard two people talking over some drinks. Now, they were saying some things that you shouldn't really talk about in public, but I guess that's what happens when you don't know how to hold your liquor. But something caught my interest, and I'll repeat it to you now. One of the guys said, "A soldier can bad mouth an associate all he wants. It's part of the perks of being Made, it's a license to abuse down right. However, if a soldier wants loyal associates to help him in his schemes, he'll respect them." As of late, we have seen people talk about how leaders should treat their members, and how lower ranked people should talk to those higher on the totem pole than them. Even I on several occasions have spoken up when I see disrespect towards leaders in Our Thing. So, let's flip the issue. There are people who would say that people who are not Made should show respect to those who are. But do those who are Made and above (including leaders) have the right, or as the guy in the bar said, license...to talk down to those who aren't? I am sure we have all been in situations where someone had less than stellar things to say to us. So my follow up question is, if someone who was a higher rank than you disrespected you,how would you feel? And what would you do, if anything? |
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This is an excellent question Ms. Esposito and a matter which needs to be discussed. I think it is important and also necesarry that soldiers or the mafiosi/mafiosa in the higher structure respect their associates. Not just because they make a lot of money 'cause they are the biggest part of the family. What would a family be without respect no matter who you are in this family. But of course respect isn't given, it's earned and I think if you take someone under your wings there is already a certain amount of respect. Respect is everything in this thing of ours and if you disrespect someone it sure can end in your death, that's why it is a very dangerous thing. A leader needs to respect the associates like the associates need to respect their leader... These were my two cents, Sal Licata |
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| Reply by: Salvatore_Licata at Jul 09, '08 04:47 | |
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Walking down the street Johnny over hears a lovely voice on an interesting matter and stops to add his tid bits of words. I myself have always been a very blunt and opiniated person. I don't like being talked down to no matter what circumstances. My bloodline has been here awhile and has learned in harsh ways when to bit their tongue and just walk away. The way I see it is if I were say Made Man. People belong me boast up to me and I boast myself and them up to the Crew Leader or higher ranking members. Respect should always be shown even if it's to a thug. Then again I have myself put smart mouthed people in watery graves for being disrespectful but they were typically young gangsters not knowing whats right and think that they're the next big thing before they're anything. Respect needs to go both ways but if you're younger you will always feel like you're being talked down to if it's about something you're not as experienced in. It's all about who the mafioso(s) are that are involved with the matter. Johnny walks off to go get some chocolate chip cookies. |
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| Reply by: Johnny3Tears at Jul 09, '08 04:50 | |
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Does a mademan have to respect an associate? No. End of discussion. Should a mademan respect an associate? Perhaps. That associate might be able to help that mademan, or might live long enough to be an equal to that mademan some day. If that is the case, it would serve that mademan to have treated the associate well while the associate was coming up. So, is the questions "should a mademan" or "must a mademan"? Nothing requires a mademan to treat anyone who is not made like anything other than a piece of shit...but showing some respect might benefit him in the long run. |
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| Reply by: FlyingPig at Jul 09, '08 05:01 | |
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I'll have to agree with Sal as well. Even though you've received the honor of being ushered into Made Man, that doesn't give you the right to disrespect someone lower on the food chain than you. You won't keep alive long if you make it a habit of insulting those who are of a lower rank than you. Having a higher rank does not give you a permit to go about stepping on other people's toes. If someone in that capacity and rank frequently insults or unfairly deplores ones that aren't condign of such punishment, they don't deserve the honor of being a made man. |
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| Reply by: Vic_Mackey at Jul 09, '08 05:01 | |
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Even though you've received the honor of being ushered into Made Man, that doesn't give you the right to disrespect someone lower on the food chain than you. Actually, yes it does. It gives you the right to do whatever you want to where associates are concerned. A mademan, in theory, can shoot an associate just for looking at him cross-eyed. Becoming made carries certain benefits. Most importantly, it means you are untouchable. No one can lay a finger on you without permission from the highest rank in the family. Of course, these days we don't give the rank the homage it is meant to contain. So, again, are we talking about how the rank SHOULD be treated, or how it IS treated? |
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| Reply by: FlyingPig at Jul 09, '08 05:11 | |
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| That's a good point FlyingPig. I agree with you about that, there's a big difference about should and is treated. That's right, of course a made man has the power and most likly the right to disrespect those lower in the food chain so I think a made man or above SHOULD treat the associates with respect or else it could get dangerous, that's what I think. | |
| Reply by: Salvatore_Licata at Jul 09, '08 05:20 | |
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And on the subject of rank and homage, you have people who have been demoted or either killed for shooting someone that has been walking the streets for under two days. So yes, the title of made man has lost its value over time. Nowadays, I'm willing to bet if a made man decided to go trigger happy on an associate or two for no legitimate reason, he would end up in the obituaries. I'm referring to people who make it a point to go out of their way to harass an associate; I'm not saying that you have to kiss the ass of every man or woman who crosses your path, but generally being unfairly spiteful with associates of your own family will usually end badly. |
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| Reply by: Vic_Mackey at Jul 09, '08 05:29 | |
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I tend to agree with my fellow Pig in this case. Respect is something that is earned. It is not given to you just because you exist. So you haven't screwed up yet, congratulations. You've earned a right to survival--nothing more. Once you get to the rank of Made Man, that should mean something, at least in theory. It means that the Don trusted you enough to make you a full-fledged Member. It means that you've done something worthy of respect. Of course, to wear the bold suit is the greatest honor a Mafioso can bear. It should be treated with the sort of reverence one would reserve for a god among men. Again, this is rarely the case in practice. Now, can a lower-ranked associate earn the respect of a Made Man? Most certainly. But that is a privilege, not a right. |
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| Reply by: SpiderPig at Jul 09, '08 10:23 | |
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FlyingPig brings up great points in this matter. As respect is earned and not given, Made Men should be respected. Being made means you're untouchable like Pig said. The local gangsters and earners are just wannabes compared to you. You have earned your button, you have earned the Boss's trust. Made Men should be respected but don't need to show it all the time. |
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| Reply by: Batista at Jul 09, '08 10:28 | |
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I gotta say that I agree completely with what FlyingPig has said here. Respect should always be shown for those who are ranked made or up, they've put in the time for their families, done all the nasty jobs they have needed to do to get where they are while facing whatever trials that have been set before them along the way. Some young earner(in this case as I know that you yourself Kira has come across such disrespect in the past few days) should not be allowed to get away with saying such things and yourself being the rank you are had no obligation to respond with respect. Whether respect goes both ways is one thing, while it is encouraged it all depends on the person you are. Some like to give off a certain decorum when they are walking the streets, some are just so long in the tooth that they don't have the energy to get down in the gutter and start slugging it out. Then there are those who take the strong arm view of I've done this, I've gotten here, why the fuck should I give anything to those lower than me. But then you've gotta wonder, what way where they treated when they were coming through the ranks, did they get the respect they thought they deserved. Who knows, we all know that at some point our thoughts on our rank changes greatly, we go from being just another money maker to someone with a bit of responsibility. |
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| Reply by: Indigo at Jul 09, '08 10:54 | |
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| In one way, I can agree with what FlyingPig said about Made guys not having to respect those beneath them, but in another I disagree. I disagree simply because you may have an associate that's extremely well connected and they're not just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and let you disrespect them, especially if their bloodline has accomplished more. If they are well connected, that made man can be dead. Real world mafia rules dictate that a made guy can do whatever they want but in this world it doesn't matter who you are, if you disrespect people you're eventually going to get it. How many people actually live long enough to Godfather or Don or even made man? | |
| Reply by: Justino at Jul 09, '08 11:33 | |
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I disagree simply because you may have an associate that's extremely well connected and they're not just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and let you disrespect them, especially if their bloodline has accomplished more. Justino, I have to disagree with you here. What someones bloodline has accomplished counts for nothing, the son is not the father/grandfather/grandmother/whatever. When you get off the boat you only have what you bring with you and that is yourself. Not what some long dead relative did many moons ago. Yes the associate may be well connected but that only gives them a foot on the ladder, it doesn't give them the protection afforded to those who are made and above. |
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| Reply by: Indigo at Jul 09, '08 11:48 | |
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A well dressed gentlemen hears the discussion whilst waiting for his ride and decides to offer his views. I believe that respect goes both ways regardless of rank. If you are Made and an associate shows you nothing but respect, than it is your duty to respect them back, it goes the same way as politeness, if someone is polite to you than you should be polite back. Made men and Women have been trusted to help the family and help them forward through both business and family unity in times of trouble, if they show disrespect to the associates that have shown them respect in turn, then they are doing their family a disservice, these are the people that work for the family earning money and can be valuable in times of hard ship and war, if you discard them like they are worthless pieces of shit, then they can turn your back on you leading to all sorts of re-percussions. All it would have taken was a little bit of respect and things may have turned out different. However ... If you get an arrogant, disrespectful little shit that thinks he is made before his time and untouchable when in fact he is fresh off the boat, is wondering around the city streets homeless or even in a family and risking them by being disrespectful to more powerful members of the community or even their underlings, They need to be dealt with quickly and efficiently! The only way individuals like this will learn is the hard way, once they are disrespectful they can do no amount of work to earn any themselves, in turn they will not be trusted by family and will often end up disrespecting to an even greater scale. Hearing the roar of an engine and turning to see his driver, Noodles tips his hat to the gathered and walks to his ride |
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| Reply by: Noodles at Jul 09, '08 12:36 | |
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"What someones bloodline has accomplished counts for nothing, the son is not the father/grandfather/grandmother/whatever. When you get off the boat you only have what you bring with you and that is yourself. Not what some long dead relative did many moons ago." That's the way it should be but never will be. I see many good men fall, let's say a RHM to a powerful Don dies for whatever reason. His son comes back as the rhight hand as his father was. Happens all the time so you can't say that it doesn't count who your father/grandfather/grandmother/whatever was. Back to the topic, I see many young ones, just started as thug or just did enough to be called a gangster but they immediately get the honor of the position of RHM, the second in command, does this automatically makes you a made man? You did nothing, you just got a high position because your father was a great one. In a a case like that, let's say this lowly ranked RH would disrespect you, a made man, one of the inner circle of the family, would you go and kill him because you have the right to do so? What's worth more, the rank or the position? |
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| Reply by: Salvatore_Licata at Jul 09, '08 12:52 | |
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Salvatore_Licata, the matter of RH is completely different. Those who are chosen to do that are done so based on their relationship with the boss of the family. To put someone in that role just because they have the rank is foolhardy in my opinion. Now just because someone is a low ranked RH, they are only given their respect because of their status as RH. This however does not mean a mademan from another family can not call them out on something. Certainly it is not a wise step to take, but if done in the proper fashion there should be no problem with it. Also if a CL is going to let their RH run their mouth at those higher ranked than them, maybe it's time to look at the CL and wonder where it all stems from. |
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| Reply by: Indigo at Jul 09, '08 14:15 | |
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Personally, since I was taught to show respect towards people until they do something to not warrant it, I don't have a problem being kind towards others who may not be full members of Cosa Nostra. I believe that people who are unnecessarily rude have self esteem issues, that they would need to belittle someone lower ranked than them to make them feel good. Or, maybe they had a bad day, and instead of doing more constructive things, they take it out on a gangster or goomba. I'm in this business to make money, and pissing off potential clients means lower profit margins for me...get my drift? On the issue regarding bloodlines...anyone who feels entitled that they should be able to do as they please because of what their ancestors has done, you would think they would be able to replicate something of what they did to earn that respect, right? Instead, you see those offspring act like spoiled brats. But I don't blame them...I blame those who indulge them and make them believe that they are worth something. Salvatore, in any case that a Right Hand of a Family starts insulting other members in Cosa Nostra, regardless of what rank they are, it makes the Family look bad. And if enough people get pissed off, then let's say you won't see that family up much longer. |
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| Reply by: Kira_Esposito at Jul 09, '08 16:06 | |
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Respect is earned regardless of rank. Even people in bold have to earn it, but that should be done before they even get their bold suit which is easier said than done. You see, even if someone is Made that doesn't stop them from acting like a bunch of morons, nor does the rank even mean someone earned their respect, we've seen that with both family members and leaders in the past and probably present. So the rank is no longer tied to what it used to mean to be a Man of Honor, at least it hasn't been for a long time now. The person carrying the rank will show by his or her own actions and words if they truly earned to be respected as Made Men or Women. But respect is also in two different levels, sadly. You have the respect earned within your family, and then you have the respect earned out here. Which is two totally different things, but the first is the most important one and also the one which leads to the second, a respected Mafiosi within a family is more likely to be respected by other peers than his or her own associates on the outside if they've been brought up to show respect in order to earn it, everyone starts off by earning their respect within their respective families. But it's rare to see someone come out here to earn it unless they do it in bold, rare but not impossible to find someone who accomplished it. There's been a lot of low ranks that my bloodline has had the honor of serving with, that they respected more than a lot of Made Men or above out there, because they acted and talked in a manner that was always respectful regardless of who they talked to. But at the same time when disrespected they never backed down and kept moving forward, that's Men of Honor to me regardless of who they are or what rank they hold. Being a RHM is a privilege not many have the honor of getting unless they're experienced and known by their leader, respect should go out to them, but like anyone else... They have to earn that, acting like a idiot only means they disgrace their own family and most likely get themselves killed or their Boss as well. Then we have leaders who believe their suit earned them respect, which it doesn't really... If your only goal was to get a bold suit and you thought that gave you the right or privilege to disrespect another high rank from a different family, then you have another thing coming. If you don't show that you really earned the suit you got, by being a Man of Honor, which also stands for being a Man of Respect, then you probably haven't earned it, and you would most likely be a hypocritical leader if you say you want to be treated with respect but show none yourself. Be it with your actions or your words, one way or another in the end, their true colors appear. What a rant eh? Thank you. |
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| Reply by: Valiant_Luciano at Jul 10, '08 16:31 | |
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