To any prospective members of MichaelMyers' family, although I note at the time of writing he currently has zero members, you should be aware that your would-be boss is a bitch.

We can be rivals, we can be enemies, but we should never be bitches. To quote my inner Sally G, the Mafia is supposed to hold honour, loyalty and respect as some of its key principles. Tell me with a straight face who respects MichaelMyers? Find me one guy and I'll show you a liar. There is always gratitude when you get information like that handed to you on a platter, correct or otherwise, especially when you were planning the same yourselves, but afterwards, what is left? Who is going to tell this guy anything ever again moving forwards? He can't hold his own piss and you're going to stand next to him? Not a chance. 

These type of actions leave a stain which time rarely washes away. Have a bust up in a coffee shop or in the Streets and people will get over it. Rogue once, twice, whatever; it'll eventually be forgiven. Even Spike nearly made it past Wise Guy. Little bitches though, people remember that shit. It is marked on his authorisation announcement for all time, but for the avoidance of doubt let it be known from this day forth that MichaelMyers will forever be remembered as a bitch. 

I echo the words of Grin26, but I may go even further. Call him a bitch is too complimentary. He is the lowest of the low. I don't think there is a single word that can describe the kind of person he is.

How can one call himself a man of honour, a man of dignity or a man that can be trusted, when he not only turns on the people he swore an oath of loyalty to, but also sat on the sidelines while the people he turned to did all the fighting and dying? As Grin26 asked: is that someone you would want to stand next to? 

BigMichaelMichael, a man so cool you had to say his name twice, sat in the crowd and ate his popcorn.

I can't pretend to know exactly what we're talking about here but it appears MichaelMyers played the political game well enough to still be standing here, so he seems to have outsmarted you! I say good for him. 

maniac, you are confusing intelligence with cowardice. In the mafia, being a rat is not a "political game". Like Grin stated, it's a stain that is not going away any time soon. Let's see if you still think he is a tactical genius when he is killed very soon by the same people he attempted to gain favor with, for the simple reason that he has already shown he is someone who is disloyal, cannot be trusted, and would turn his back on his family in a heartbeat.  Those types of people do not do well. You're not very smart, either.

John, a Don was told of the plan by their Godfather not some random gangster. I think that is pretty self-explanatory in terms of them being part of the need-to-know. Even so, I would still personally prefer a world where a Godfather trusts their Don and loops them in on a plan rather than restricts it to generational chums regardless of the outcome. 

Wherever you want to point the finger of blame, nothing can or will ever change the fact that MichaelMyers is a bitch. He was trusted with information as a Don leading a family by his Godfather and he ran off to leak it. No amount of mental gymnastics can cartwheel us into that being anything other than a bitch move. He also let virtually his whole crew die as part of whatever misguided deception he believed he was perpetrating. Not just a traitor to his Godfather, but to all of his members as well. 

maniac, if MichaelMyers had kept his mouth shut and stayed loyal then he would very likely be significantly better placed than he is now. His reputation is in tatters, his name is mud and he doesn't even have the respect of his new friends because they are the ones who disclosed it was him who leaked it. That is hardly the move of a political savant. 

John_Price, what are you talking about? 

If you swear an oath of loyalty to your Godfather and you are then authed under him - who else should you be loyal to?

If you cannot be trusted to receive information in such circumstances, can you truly call yourself a man of honour and is that the way you'd like to see cities operated?

Also, I wonder how favourably his new chums will look on him as he ran and sat on the opposite coast under protection, once it was revealed that he was the turncoat, while they sacrificed their lives and worked tirelessly for their cause. 

Is that someone any of you would trust?

Why wouldn't they disclose it? Wouldn't it be obvious by the fact he's still standing? And who hasn't deceived those above and below them before? When a crewleader purges their made members, they're betraying the bonds that tie them together. Maybe Michael had a legitimate disagreement with the way his former colleagues were running things. Maybe he felt like he didn't have long under them either. It sounds like you two are just really upset that he outsmarted you. 

What honor is there exactly in wanting to bring another fight to these shores in two weeks time over a group of people that were like newly arrived to these shores? You talk a lot about honor but all I see is pettiness and long time bloodline feuds held by your line. 

Less then Two weeks. That’s how long it took for your people to start planning the next deaths.

I mean, Imagine getting set up to help rebuild after a massive war then finding out that your city heads were about to betray two hero’s from that previous battle. A battle that lasted as long as this one.

Imagine what implications that would have on your future.

Hell.. Imagine being brave enough to break the cycle of betrayal, backstabbing and purging.

You’re upset something leaked from your back rooms instead of the other way around. If this were the other way you’d crow about having a spy.

Michael earned his place with the integrity of seeing something wrong and not standing by.. despite the fact that it would have benefited him to stay silent. Instead we’re rebuilding. Again. Because you couldn’t help but betray allies that carried a large chunk of the last war. I’d rather stand with him. 
 

This needless, endless slaughter will continue until there is a regular CL meeting, staffed by a secretariat of permanent members

Why are you guys trying to muddy the waters with this shit? Where does the honour or lack thereof of anyone else come into anything? My, Soseki, Jesus or anyone else's honour or lack thereof has absolutely no bearing or whether or not MichaelMyers is a bitch. These things are not mutually exclusive. 

Let us review the evidence one more time for the hard of hearing at the back:

• Trusted to be Made
• Trusted to become a Crewleader
• Trusted to be included in the plans
• Betrayed that trust to his Godfather's enemy by revealing the plans
• Safelisted by that enemy but pretended to be innocent
• Did nothing to assist them in their war remaining on the wrong coast and let his entire crew die
• Currently has 0 members

You can think his Soseki and all of his allies were pieces of shit. That's fine. You can pretend that NY were not also intending to make the exact same move if you want. That's also fine. Now please, Engel, Lissa, with a straight face, tell me that it is not a bitch move to rat out your Godfather to their enemy, stay as a crewleader and let every single member who worked for you be murdered. 

If you can't do that, you know as well as I do that MichaelMyers is a bitch. 

Engel, that would be a fair enough argument if any of those platitudes had anything to do with Michael's reason for being a rat. Let's not be absurd, though, ok? I see a guy in a hockey mask, not an emissary of diplomacy. I see a guy who hid out on the west coast and did everything he could to save his own skin, both against his own people and also against those he was selling out to. Not someone looking to save us from ourselves. Cowardly actions such as those are not the actions of someone looking out for the best interest of all involved. Nice try though.

Worst of all, I see the exact type of person who has far too often embodied the worst types of leaders we have had in recent years - cowards whose only goal is to survive conflicts, not to put themselves at risk in defence of their own family. Far too often those in charge are in charge only because they hid out and kept their heads low when their family needed them. Great leaders lead, not hide and serve their own self-interest.

This is a time for reconciliation, so these old grudges that Lissa so rightly pointed out can be buried. Thank you, Lissa, for your common sense. I would love to hear more from your perspective. There seems to be a lot of anger here but I'm not informed enough of the background facts to gauge whether it's coming from a place of MichaelMyers being scapegoated or folks being upset that Myers outsmarted them. In either case, it seems unfair that he's become a lightning rod for these fallen factions, based on hearsay and conjecture. We need to rebuild this community into something we can all be proud of when we go home at night and that starts with leaving this bitterness behind. 

Grin aren't you muddying the waters when you put words in people's mouths? Where did I call Soseki and his friends pieces of shit? I did not. I said petty over a bloodline feud. They were about to drag everyone back into a war and betray people that helped them in the last one merely two weeks previously over it. 

You may not like Michael's actions and I honestly do not know the guy, but clearly he had a better vision for these shores than Soseki and friends. That much seems evident by how quickly they were willing to betray the people that helped keep them alive last time.

What makes their betrayal more acceptable than the betrayal you claim Michael did upon Soseki and allies?  Seems a little hypocritical to me at the end of the day. 

This isn't about bitterness. This isn't about pettiness. The discussion, at its core, is about Cosa Nostra principles. It descended into an absurd justification of abhorrent actions, thanks to those of you who do not understand those principles or much of anything else related to our secret society.

Lissa said "Clearly he had a better vision".

Lissa, please, what is clear about it and what was his vision? You said it was clear, so assumptions won't be necessary. A simply explanation from you will suffice. Let's discuss this with some intelligence, logic, and actual common sense, if you do not mind. If you do not know what his vision was, then it was not "clear". If you think he had an actual vision and was not just acting out of self-interest, you're naive at best. That's being kind.

Sometimes when you try to be persuasive, you have to make sure that you're not grasping at straws and simply saying things that you hope others will believe, even if you do not believe it yourself. The reason for that, if you can't figure it out, is because for your argument to be taken as sincere, it's necessary, by definition, that you must believe it yourself.  In other words, you are coming out here expressing your belief that MichaelMyers was acting altruistically.  Say the words, Lissa. Say "MichaelMyers was acting altruistically". Say it. Just say it. Show us how smart you are.

If you don't believe your own argument, why should anyone listen to you, take you seriously, or ever believe you?

No, because I wasn't putting words in people's mouths, and I didn't say that is what you said. I was saying to you that you could conjure up any opinion you wanted to about the other people involved and it would not invalidate the assessment of MichaelMyers being a bitch because his actions are objectively, indefensibly those of a bitch. I'll show you. 

Let's ignore the reality of the situation in that both sides were contemplating the same move and assume the very worst case scenario is true. Soseki, Nevaa, SoWeakWayne too/exclusively if you like et. al were all just warmongering fuckwads who wanted to betray people who fought a war with them without any provocation or justification whatsoever; 'the bad guys'. [br]Odin and TNT were completely innocent and peacefully minding their own business; 'the good guys'. 

In that scenario, I can see how you might try to convince yourself that it allows MichaelMyers to be forgiven for betraying his oath upon becoming a Made Man, his duty to his Godfather as his CL and for you to defend his decision to leak a war to the good guys. I don't agree because these are the things a family is supposed to be built upon, but fine. 

The part which cannot be reconciled under any circumstances are the decisions to:

1. Only get himself safelisted
2. Proceed to sit on the wrong coast and contribute nothing towards to the war effort whose noble cause he believed in so wholeheartedly 
3. Remain a crewleader and watch all of his members die to his own side's guns

I have no interest whatsoever in discussing the political landscape at the time or the reasons behind the decision from one side to attack another. That is not in question here. The victors can and will creative whatever narrative they like, which is completely fine. There is no recourse available to that line of questioning because I've already conceded you're allowed to think the very worst of the people Michael betrayed. With all of that said, without any meandering or prevarication, please explain to me how actions 1-3 above are not the actions of a bitch?

When you've finished explaining that, I'd be very interested in what you believe the vision of a person who took actions 1-3 is likely to be for these shores and why it'll be positive? Seems to me like they'd be pretty bitchy.