For some time now I've had thoughts on how the game is played by the majority of the players and there are things to me that just don't seem right. What happened with Grin and NO last night was just one of those things but it was enough to jump start my thought process into creating this thread I would like to share these thoughts with you now and I would also ask that instead of just dismissing them think about them for a neutral stand point.

First I'll talk about the amount of crews in our cities against the amount of cities. At present we have 19 crews, 10 of these crews have over 30 members, 6 of these crews have between 10 and 20 members and 3 have less than 10. Now we have 7 cities as our own personal play ground out of these 7 cities only 5 have crews. So this is an average of 4 per city, 1 more auth would make it a nice even 5. There is no reason in my eyes to have that many in one city while other cities lie empty. I can understand the need to secure you and to keep your good people close by. But that to me is something that is taking away from the game as a whole and I will explain this more in my next bit.

Ranks, we all have them. With the ability to tip now we can build up the units so that we know when we hit the age required we will get our next rank. I'll use me as an example I got my 30th unit while I was a goomba, I keep this up and by the time I'm made I could have the units to be ranked Don. To me this cheapens rank, getting to made man should be an achievement in itself. Now it's just bust your balls jail breaking at a young rank, buy all the tips at the reduced price and then all you have to do is keep your head down long enough and voila 11 days later and you get your made man badge. Who knows, stay alive 40 days and you'll get Don, whoa wait a minute. You can be Don and not a family head? What the hell, no one in my opinion should ever be ranked the same as their crew leader, if your crew leader is a Don the highest you should be able to get is Consig. The CL is the head of the family and no one should be ranked the same as them as this shows equality, the only people who should be equal to crew leaders should be other crew leaders. Yes there are crew leaders who won't just click the button because it's there, but there are also those who will.

Why do some people click the button to promote and some don't, do they do it because the person has earned it, maybe, but I think it is more because they want their people ranked up as high as they can to make more money so that the CL can afford to buy the pretty things like fortifications, bodyguards and many more things. But then people don't need to be ranked made and above to make vast sums of money. With credits, dfp's, CA's and the casinos (if you can play them right, I'm terrible at it lol) it's possibly for anyone ranked below made man to become a millionaire in a matter of minutes. To me this is something that is seriously wrong, whoever heard of a goomba running around with a couple of mill in the bank, sure they could be involved in a big score but they are never going to make that kind of money and if they are making that kind of money and flashing it around surely those ranked above them are going to ask questions as to how they made this money and why they aren't kicking more up the family.

Another thing that for me is killing the status of ranks is demotions for bodyguards. A demotion come from the word demote which by definition means: To reduce in grade, rank, or status. Now in our world it doesn't mean that at all, it's a reward. You've busted your hump to hit ranks on minimum time, built up a cannon and if your friends with the right people then voila you get busted back down to gangster, get to buy a ton of bodyguards at knock down price, then rinse and repeat with the jail breaks and you can be back at Don in 40 days' time. Is it just me or does anyone else see the flaw in this logic? Allow me to explain this flaw with the comparison to other games online. In World of Warcraft great gear/ flyers/ whatever small trinkets you need to complete your set require a lot of money. There is no way to get round paying out the money by busting yourself back down to get it for cheap. Pick any other MMORPG and you'll see that this is the same. I don't have much experience with other games like MR although I'd be surprised to find that others have the same system in place as what we do.

Gangsters should not be running around with 100+ bodyguards, hell people under the rank of made man should not be running around with 100+ bodyguards. This however is my own personal opinion and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of you will disagree with this. Take a step back and think about it from a logical view, rather than a selfish view as to how it could hurt your own account to not have all those guards then come back and tell me I'm wrong.

Oh and I can understand the need for all these guards as the amount of targets and the amount of cannons running around is at a ridiculously high level. Simple idea buy buy Tyler Durden, just have mia's and ria's. Again another thing which most will disagree with, otherwise where would you get your wackgasm. Think about it Marston died with a gun of over 1000, who in the name of fuck needs that many kills? Seriously, is it actually required, or has over world turned into Looney tune land cause seeing numbers like that on kill lists, or seeing people running around with more bodyguards than they have family members. Something to me is seriously off base.

Okay so going back to what Grin tried to do last night and what he did do. While he didn't get the city of New Orleans what he has highlighted and brought to the fore front is that we have 2 cities empty, not recently empty but long time empty and what has been done about it? Yes PoisonousJelly came out and said the godfathers and city heads have been talking about it, but in all the time that the cities have been empty we the people have heard nothing. Yet we see auth after auth in cities that already are top heavy, so what conclusion are we supposed to draw from that. We have an abundance of crews at this time; they could be spread out more among the cities rather than holding up one mass on the east coast and one mass on the west coast, and the Chicago experiment/initiative in the mid-west.

As New York, Philly and LV are the ones with 4 crews, I'm discounting Chi on the basis that only one of their crews has over 40 members, the most in any other crew is 10. There is no reason why one crew from those 3 cities could not be placed in either NO or Det, to try and breathe some life back into the city. I wouldn't suggest any more auth's at this time because well there just aren't the players to support more families. At the minute among the families that have 30 plus members they have between them 418 members, looking at the stats page and of those users ranked gangster and above there are a total of 493 members. So out of the 19 families we have, 9 of them hold the majority of the playing community. (These figures are rough but you do get the general idea) This leaves 10 with less 80 between them. So from that we can see that new auths are really not what is needed for these cities and that maybe it's time for those who already in cities to spread their wings, come out from under the umbrella and have a go on your own. Yes we can see what you made of as leaders when working as a group, but how about we see who actually has the fortitude to build a city up from scratch, who among you is looking for a bigger challenge, if any?

So I think I've come to end of what I have to say, I certainly didn't think that I would be banging all this out this morning. But well it's been good to get off my chest. I know a lot of you will not agree with what I'm saying. That is fair enough, I just wanting to share my feelings on the state of this place and of the many things that I feel could do with being looked at and changed, not from an admin and coding point of view, but from the players and how they play the game.

Thanks for your time

appreciate the  time you took to write this out and agree with you pretty much. hate to be the bearer of bad news to which im sure you already know but it will just fall upon deaf ears.  complaints about demotions for bodyguards have been occuring for years.  it is a  loophole that people enjoy taking advantage of. hitters can continue to plus one their guns and take up massive  defences. no one is going to shy away from it.i dont begin to understand why cities are left empty. we have already seen st loius disapear. new orleans could be next. spread the crews put life into the cities.  i understand everyone wants as much wealth and bodyguards as possible but it is coming at the cost of potentially losing a city. maybe the powers that be will react sooner than later and spread the people out

Thank you Marcus, I'm well aware that many will read this and dismiss it completely. However while I know the debates about bodyguards have come and gone many of my other points are barely touched upon. Not because people don't understand them it's just that people don't want to upset the norm.

Every crew leader could take a stand against demotions for bodyguards but all it would take is for one to not follow suit and then the cycle starts again.

All I hope is that people can read this, maybe think a little bit more past their own self and think about how our world as a whole has evolved from what it was, to what it is now.

Everything you say has an element of sense in an OOC world. However in character it makes no sense in the slightest. A top quality crew leader makes decisions based on what is best for him IC and sending crews else where makes zero sense what so ever.

Why would you weaken your own city to build another one, unless you made a decision. That crew leader walking around IWP was created no doubt in your city, why throw away a $90 mill plus investment on the grounds that they may back you up when the chips are down. History shows that this rarely happens unless there is a massive bloodline link between the two places.

Far far far too long people have played this game with an OOC attitude I personally find it refreshing that decisions made currently are made with an IC attitude.

The way I see it that IC attitude has been born out of the current loophole that surrounds the ability to demote and use it as a reward and the thing that is keeping this going is the selfishness of the players who can't see that it actually does more harm than good.

I have an idea for bodyguards which I'm going to bring to the suggestions forum. I am pretty sure that it will be knocked back but in it's current state there are major improvements that need to be made to make the game a level playing field for all users.

I don't think you've been here long enough to bring up some of the accusations you made Zal.

The bodyguard demotion has been brought up multiple times, over and over again. Nothing has been changed, and I doubt it ever will. Its just a way of things right now. You asked if there was even a reason for Marston to have that many kills, the answer is yes. Look at the amount of bodyguards around, I mean its simple. More kills you have, more bodyguards you can shoot through. Is it realistic? Not in the slightest. Nor are the bodyguards. This is from a "in character" point of view.

Now Jack_Reacher hits the nail right on the head. People are now playing and making decision based on in character views.

Sorry, was in the middle of my post when you posted.

Level playing field? How is this not a fair playing field? No one is saying you can't be demoted for BGs, no one will hold you back from that. The money? Start saving or hopefully your Crew Leader sees enough potential in you to help you along with the purchasing of them. I never said I liked the demotion for BGs, but if it's what I gotta do to survive and keep my small Crew alive, I'll do what ever I have to.

I am very eager to hear your game suggestion.

Mike as this is OOC I'm not talking from Zal's time of walking the streets but from my own time of playing the game and I assure you I have been here long enough to have seen all this come together. My thoughts on this are not ones that have just come about over night.

The way I see it the level playing field is reserved for the higher ranks only, I expanded on this in my suggestion. I know it will not be greatly received as we have fallen too far down the rabbit hole. But well just maybe.

Ok. I'm not going to dismiss you, but I'll certainly address some points I find pertinent.

Ranks, we all have them. With the ability to tip now we can build up the units so that we know when we hit the age required we will get our next rank. I'll use me as an example I got my 30th unit while I was a goomba, I keep this up and by the time I'm made I could have the units to be ranked Don. To me this cheapens rank, getting to made man should be an achievement in itself. Now it's just bust your balls jail breaking at a young rank, buy all the tips at the reduced price and then all you have to do is keep your head down long enough and voila 11 days later and you get your made man badge

How very wrong that statement is. Sure, some familys will give someone Made Man when they immediately reach the required time frame, should we sully ALL familys because fo that? I think not.

Obviously at this time I only have knowledge of what happens in Las Vegas, how people make their bones in other cities is the concern of other cities, not mine. Anyone wishing to become Made Man needs to first ensure that they have earned it, there have been people waiting over 60 days in Vegas before reaching that stage. Grin, who you used as your example, was 130 days old and would not have received his Made Man badge from me due to the fact he hadn't earned it. Thats no slight on the person behind the PC, as he and I have been friends for a long time, thats just how his current Character was viewed by my currecnt Character. I like to think i'm not he only one that has such value in the ranks, I know for a fact having spent my time in Fort Izzel that my Godfather shares the same value and has made people wait a hell of a long time before they received promotions.

Anyway, moving on.

You can be Don and not a family head? What the hell, no one in my opinion should ever be ranked the same as their crew leader, if your crew leader is a Don the highest you should be able to get is Consig

Sorry to burst the bubble slightly on that one, but your Crewleader cannot promote you to Don. Only a Godfather can promote someone to that rank. I can understand your feelings on the fact that someone reaching the same rank as their leader is a bit unlikely in the real mafia, however as this is still a game I feel we need to be a bit more open and flexible in terms of how strict we are with the realism.

Another thing that for me is killing the status of ranks is demotions for bodyguards. A demotion come from the word demote which by definition means: To reduce in grade, rank, or status

Couldn't agree more. Anyone being demoted should have to pay full price of their prior rank for the bodyguard, in my opinion. Whilst thats not the case and whilst others make use of the ability to demote and buy bodyguards, I will too. You'll be hard placed to find a crew leader that is going to allow their family to be less protected than the others because they disagree with the games capabilitties.

Though I will note one thing, someone recently was demoted by myself because of an error on their part. It was made abundantly clear that as such whilst they were demoted to their lower rank they were prohibited from purchasing any bodyguards as this would demean their punishment. Thats not to say the person planned to buy any, but the fact remains that when the demotion is indeed a form of punishment, its certainly treated as such.

Gangsters should not be running around with 100+ bodyguards, hell people under the rank of made man should not be running around with 100+ bodyguards. This however is my own personal opinion and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of you will disagree with this

On the contrary, I'm sure you'll find a vast many people agree with this stance. I feel only people such as the Crewleader and their hands should be so vastly protected, what with them being the heads of the family itself.

Again though, until such a ruling is in place from the gods, don't expect anyone to do anything different than they do now.

hink about it Marston died with a gun of over 1000, who in the name of fuck needs that many kills? Seriously, is it actually require

In the current game status, Yes. It is. When there are people who can hire over 200 Bodyguards, then there is a need to train your gun to enable it to shoot that person with 200 bodyguards incase he threatens the life of you/your family.

Okay so going back to what Grin tried to do last night and what he did do.

Contrary to popular belief, Grin didn't attempt to achieve anything last night. He did it seems cause quite a stir, which is good, but none the less he made no serious attempt to take New Orleans. He was simply a guy that had no longer use for his character and wished to have some fun before departing.

Yet we see auth after auth in cities that already are top heavy, so what conclusion are we supposed to draw from that

I think your meant to realise its a game and the longevity of peoples characters are a big goal in the game, the easiest way to ensure a long life is build a strong city before expanding. Not many people are going to leave themselves weak by allowing their best people that they convinced to join their city and helped train, leave at the first sign of an open city.

Also, not everyone wants to leave and create a city. Its not a simple and fun job, sorry to tell you.

here is no reason why one crew from those 3 cities could not be placed in either NO or Det, to try and breathe some life back into the city

Again, there is a very good reason. Who is to say these people want to leave their current city? Working with people to build a city is one of the more fun parts of this game. Jumping ship and going it alone isn't as attractive as you make out. Sure, it might be better for the game itself, but how much better?

Take LV for example, just so as not to offend any other cities. Lets say Slash moves to New Orleans (or whatever Grin renamed it). Suddenly Las Vegas loses its Underboss and one of its fuller familys. You say thats good for the game, but what if old Slash goes and pisses off Philly, maybe Neon doesn't like the Rock God and wants him dead? Bang. New Orleans is empty again, Slash on his own is an easy target for anyone that for whatever reason wants to kill him. Do you think people wouldn't attack him just because he moved for the good of the game? I don't.

how about we see who actually has the fortitude to build a city up from scratch, who among you is looking for a bigger challenge, if any?

For the love of God, don't bring fortitude into this. I have no desire to run a city again, I don't lack the ability to do it, I lack the desire to do it. I want to come onto Mafia Returns and enjoy the time I spend on there. I enjoy having a 50 member family, moving to another city to become a city head would eventually lead to becoming a Godfather, again, something I don't desire to become. Is it wrong that I'd rather serve my current leader (even though he's scouse), I don't feel wrong. I feel like i'm enjoying the game.

I know a lot of you will not agree with what I'm saying. That is fair enough, I just wanting to share my feelings on the state of this place and of the many things that I feel could do with being looked at and changed, not from an admin and coding point of view, but from the players and how they play the game.

Its good to see people express their opinions, Its something that should be encouraged more and more. The only problem I have with many of your thoughts are that they are made, from my opinion, on the basis that everyone shares the same desires as you.

I find it unlikely that you've been a City Head before, based solely on what you've said today. I commend you for taking a view that you feel is better for the game itself, its good to see, but I feel that you don't quite understand the viewpoint your asking people to share. Opening cities isn't some grand plan to make the game better.

I do agree having these cities filled would be more fun, as I mentioned in the streets earlier today, but I dont for a second feel that doing so makes the game itself any better. Where someone calls home doesn't effect how good the game itself is.

My responses today may seem a bit forward, I assure you i'm not attacking your view, just sharing my own. I'm doing so whilst busy at work too, so if there is some part of these comments that seems to have gone a bit nuts, you have my apologies.

Ahh Slash, damn you for that response. I've never had to use word twice for one thread :P

How very wrong that statement is. Sure, some familys will give someone Made Man when they immediately reach the required time frame, should we sully ALL familys because fo that? I think not.

You will notice in the first line of the next paragraph I did not sully all crewleaders with this.

Why do some people click the button to promote and some don't

The reason I chose to focus on those who do is simple, those who don't have no problem with. However as I have not the knowledge of how every crewleader in the game is running their family I can only gerneralise as I have not done this to point fingers in any specific direction.

Sorry to burst the bubble slightly on that one, but your Crewleader cannot promote you to Don.

I stand corrected, however I do feel that my point still stands that a crew leader should always be a rank higher than their highest rank member, whether that crew leader be a Don, Consig, Boss, Capo or Mademan. Not just in terms of realism but as a way to bring back the full meaning of rank, which is something that I feel has been slipping for some time.

In the current game status, Yes. It is. When there are people who can hire over 200 Bodyguards, then there is a need to train your gun to enable it to shoot that person with 200 bodyguards incase he threatens the life of you/your family.

As I understand it the admins are constantly reviewing the cap on bodyguards, however was there not a time ago where the cap had to be raised because of the strength of some guns around? That is a vicious circle right there.

Grin didn't attempt to achieve anything last night

While he may not attempted to actually take NO by force he did highlight a glaring problem that the city has lain empty for too long and runs the risk of becoming another St Louis. As New Orleans was one of the original cities from .org I personally would hate to see this happen.

I think your meant to realise its a game and the longevity of peoples characters are a big goal in the game

I am fully aware that it is a game, one that I have played for many years, in fact out of all the games I have played this is the only one that has kept my attention. Why do I play for the community and the friends I have made while being here, from both mafiareturns and from the older .org. Longevity however is something that is relatively new to our way of life. I do not think this is a bad thing, but I do feel that the emphasis on it is too great. For many the goal of the game is long life within their family, for others it is to seize control of a family and try to carve their own place in history. However the way the game is played at the minute it seems the focus is on longevity. We generally gets wars on an epic scale now, with mass deaths. What happened the smaller skirmishes, the power struggles. Take what happened with Manius, it took 3 NY crews and Philly to take down one family. Again this goes back to my issue with bodyguards.

I have no desire to run a city agai

That is a great statement, you have no desire but what of others who have? Surely you can't be the only one who just wants to run a crew for a godfather. You've done it on multiple occasions right? As have others, what about the many players who haven't? All they may need is that push to get out on their own, but while they shelter under an umbrella in a city they are safe and rather than pushing for something they bide their time in the hope that something may happen to their godfather and they wil be lucky enough to have the units and will have no other objectors in their goal to get godfather.

I find it unlikely that you've been a City Head before

Actually, I've had a couple of crews in my time. Nothing of note and never been an overall city head. But I am aware of the work it takes to run a family and that is also the reason why I would never do it again as I just don't have the time. However there are many here who do spend a lot of time here and could potentially become a great city head. However I feel the longenvity factor is holding some people back as they aren't willing to risk their 6/7/8/9…month old name on the chance that it might work.

Honestly and truthfully thank you Slash, you response was more than I could have hoped for.

ahhh dammit, editing fail on the last bit :/

It should look like this:

I have no desire to run a city agai

That is a great statement, you have no desire but what of others who have? Surely you can't be the only one who just wants to run a crew for a godfather. You've done it on multiple occasions right? As have others, what about the many players who haven't? All they may need is that push to get out on their own, but while they shelter under an umbrella in a city they are safe and rather than pushing for something they bide their time in the hope that something may happen to their godfather and they wil be lucky enough to have the units and will have no other objectors in their goal to get godfather.

I find it unlikely that you've been a City Head before

Actually, I've had a couple of crews in my time. Nothing of note and never been an overall city head. But I am aware of the work it takes to run a family and that is also the reason why I would never do it again as I just don't have the time. However there are many here who do spend a lot of time here and could potentially become a great city head. However I feel the longenvity factor is holding some people back as they aren't willing to risk their 6/7/8/9…month old name on the chance that it might work.

Honestly and truthfully thank you Slash, you response was more than I could have hoped for. ?

I give up......

Haha, no luck there!

I do appreciate your view, and I don't disagree entirely, i'm mostly playing devils advocate and looking at it from other perspectives. We don't all share the same goals around here, and while many look for the game to progress, others are more focused on enjoying the game as it is. Not everyone finds fault with how things are right now.

I completely agree that standards with regard to rank have slipped, though I do also feel that we often look in the past too much when thinking about such things.

Again, your correct with regard to Grins move causing such a stir that folk are now talking about empty cities, whilst that wasn't his intent it was certainly his doing, so he has my thanks for that. Along with the swift kick in the nuts for buying out my family.

I too would hate to lose New Orleans, it was the city where I was first a Made Man and also first Authed by Shippie many many many moons ago in .org.

Indeed, damned tags....lol

I can understand the devils advocate, I've played that a few times in the past myself. It's good that you've done it and I appreciate it as it's allowed em to expand on some of the things I've said.

I do agree that we look to far in past at times, especially the ones who came from the old .org. But I still feel that while we shouldn't try to be exactly like the past there are things from there that are still relevant to the way our world is today.

Ohhh kick in the nuts, deserved I must say. The way he went about it was all wrong, much like those who rogue just because they have nothing to do/ being held back/ nothing to lose.

The old NO holds some found memories for me as well, I was there with Scarin and then Jon on a number of occasions. Never bold though and considering how things went for me here, that's not a bad thing either :P

Lots of good points all around. I think one thing that could help improve the city situation is if we actually had limited space, instead of just pretending we do. I was watching Donnie Brasco again, and it struck me how Sonny Black moaned about too many wise guys jostling around for the same scams. He wanted Miami, room to breath, not so many guys going after the same heists. If we had that, then pretty soon everyone wants to expand, the need to make money could override the need or even the ability for multiple crews of 50 to occupy the same space. With regard to the loophole of demotion for BG, its as simple as keeping the price the same, a BG is a BG why even vary the price. The present situation drives the player behavior and you could argue it penalizes anyone trying to play IC correctly. Almost anything players do IC that appears illogical is driven by some game mechanic and most can be fixed and then players driven for historical accuracy.

I have to say I don't actually like the idea of setting one price for bodyguards. To look at it from a realism point of view or even in a roleplay point of view a bodyguard for a Don should cost more than a bodyguard for a gangster for after all the Don is somebody. Where as the gangster is only just starting out making a name for themselves, and any self respecting good bodyguard isn't going to work for some unknown person. So therefore the gangster has to take what they can get.

You bring up a good point Brucie, too many people jostling for the same crimes, lower the amount one can earn.

I know for fact that too many people rivals selling the same drugs in the same area drives down the amount you can as you have competitors, more choice, less people have to come to you, because let's be fair there is only a certain amount of money that can be made in the same area.

One dealer, he gets all the money. Five dealers, then the amount earned is split. The same way there are only so many crimes that can be pulled in a certain area. Only so many post offices, old ladies etc. And because of this I think the game should reflect it, that will force branching out.

Currently I'm not completely sure how to go about it, so I will be returning to discuss it.

But I see more pros than cons, the admin want to lower IG cash so by doing this the amount of money IG will fall. There is a problem with BG numbers, less money will lower the amount of BGs can be hired.

I have to say I don't actually like the idea of setting one price for bodyguards. To look at it from a realism point of view or even in a roleplay point of view a bodyguard for a Don should cost more than a bodyguard for a gangster for after all the Don is somebody. Where as the gangster is only just starting out making a name for themselves, and any self respecting good bodyguard isn't going to work for some unknown person. So therefore the gangster has to take what they can get.

If you would be against setting one price, then we would have to set capped BG tiers or the level of defense would have to be varied between the ranks in some way to make any change to the current BG system.

As it currently is looked on a BG for a thug is the same kind of BG for a Godfather. It's either we have tiered caps or as you rank you upgrade your BG the same way you would your DFP.

a BG is a BG why even vary the price

I could be very wrong here, but my understanding is the fact that right now we hav several people as IWP, or even a variation of P - IWP also. As these people currently hold bodyguards bought at a lower price, it wouldn't exactly be very fair to declare that any future pruchases for new users must be made at a much higher price, as this makes the playing field uneven.

Many people would simply say "Remove all BGs in the game, then".

This again carries its own issues. Personally, Id be happy for it to happen as I'm not fortunate enough to have been able to put real money into my character, however I can entirely understand why people that do pay real cash for credits and then use these to fund their Bgs, would feel somewhat aggrieved at the loss of their real money.

This isn't a new issue though, really. This is a very old issue thats been debated many many times.

I agree with you Slash about it being a very old issue. I have made a suggestion in OOC so am trying to refrain from saying anything about it here. I did not start this as a discussion on one specific topic if it does go down that way then fair enough I can't stop it, however I would like to see that this isn't turned into yet another bodyguard discussion thread.

However I have made a suggestion about them and what I think could potentially be done, your all free to visit there and debate away!