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| The Fallacy of Being Loyal | Started by: Vienna on Sep 19, '08 13:59 |
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The point of lower ranks not having to be as loyal as Made Men, with all due respect gentlemen, is bullshit. Before a member is Made he has to prove himself to be a worthy member of the family. I've heard stories of Wise Guys having to pass a test before they could become Made. Sometimes the tests were practical jokes, but when the boss asked the Wise Guy to do a favor the answer had to be yes or he didn't get promoted. I often hear people say they are here for friends. That's part of the reason I'm here, but if it was the only reason I'd just stay in the coffee shops and socialize. Sometimes the line between business and friendship is blurry because we live in a peaceful time where many people from different families are friends. People who are capable of putting business before friendship are sometimes faced with the wrath of, "Oh my God! I can't believe you did that, you fucking backstabber. I thought we were friends." This complaint makes me laugh. If people want to take business personal they can take a fuckin' hike. I'm glad Vienna brought up the point about telling information to friends. A few weeks ago a friend asked me a question about my gun. When I wouldn't answer he got mad about it. He probably thought I was a bitch, but I didn't care. I'm not here to be the most liked and most popular gal in town. I'm here to be a mafioso. Another issue with loyalty that baffles me is people who don't die when their leader dies. I don't understand why they fear death so much they would be disloyal to the leader who gave them a job and protected them. We are in the mafia, kids. Dying is part of the job sometimes. Regardless of my rank I'm going down with the ship. |
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| Reply by: Maxie at Sep 20, '08 00:10 | |
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NoDice, once again a few of your comments are worrying to me. My crewleader should earn my loyalty not just in the protection of me but by granting me the opportunity to prove myself. Some things go without saying, I would hope every potential crewleader out there will be willing when their time comes to give people the opportunity to prove themselves. For the record I think my crewleader is doing a very fine job of that. If I earn money, participate, donate, and pass on important information I am doing my duties on the lowest level. Hypothetically speaking, if I were to prove myself through doing hits, money making scams, even exchanging ideas that help the family, I can move up within my family and obtain more responsibility. My crewleader pays attention and recognizes good work. In that regard he has earned my respect and my loyalty. But once again hypothetically, if I were to do these things and they were to go unnoticed or are blatently ignored, it wouldn't be me requesting to leave the crew, it would be another crewleader asking to take me in. The end of this comment is the most worrying, for me it comes across as a thinly veiled threat to your crewleader. If hypothetically what you were doing wasn't noticed or ignored why would another crew leader ask to take you in. Your a sponsored member of a family, how would you suddenly become unsponsored? Are you saying if its not noticed your going to shoot at your crewleader, or buy out, or give information away about your family to allow others to kill them? There could be many reasons why your work hasn't been noticed as of yet or properly recognised. What is a blatant ignore to you could very easily be the slip of the mind to a busy crew leader. |
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| Reply by: Mont at Sep 20, '08 02:21 | |
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Now excuse me if this is just PMS talking, but really? You are going to ask another leader to fucking take you after you "worked so hard in another family". You will just throw everything away because they didn't pat you on the head and give you a fucking cookie. This is the mafia not a fucking tea party. Although one of those could make things interesting....but I digress. NOTHING goes unnoticed by your leader. Someone is always watching and if you don't get acknowledged it's most likely because you are a raging fucking idiot who doesn't deserve the light of day but hell you can be a good earner and not be seen or heard hopefully. Judging by "If you're not made you should probably be able to float between whichever family you'd like. Getting your button means you've made a commitment to your family." You fall under the raging idiot file. Now as for everyone who has been saying how under made shouldn't be as loyal I ask you this. If you were a leader, and have an Earner/Wise Guy who isn't ready to DIE for you why would you promote them? Seems fairly stupid to put your trust in someone who isn't willing to put it all down for you in a moments notice doesn't it? Loyalty should be shown at a young age and develop further as you progress. Once you are a Mademan you should be willing to kill the world twice over for your leader. Now while you are still an associate technically you do NOT owe the family anything. But hell if you plan on getting anywhere you should fucking grow a pair. And maybe you will make it somewhere in life... |
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| Reply by: AlexisVonWaffle at Sep 20, '08 07:34 | |
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I'll better organize my defense, thanks all for jumping in against me, really appreciate it. For the record, I believe that being made is becoming an official member of an organization. This is how it is in the real world. You go from being a friend of mine to being a friend of ours. Many people here do not see the difference and frankly it is applied equally in all crews. In my family you have to earn your button. I agree with that. Some families have no requirements on becoming made. That's fine, but I do not agree with that. They are not right or wrong, but having members earn their button has its benefits compared to it being just given.
Yes, in an ideal situation you could trust everyone, but to actually do that you'd be getting the wheels rolling toward your own death. And I agree, a gangster SHOULD show the type of loyalty displayed from a made man. But the difference here is that if you are a gangster you have the option not to. In that situation, this is a person that does not get their button. If you are a made man you are EXPECTED to show that type of loyalty. You cannot just expect that of a gangster since you've really given them very few reasons to do so. Loyalty is something that I believe grows with you. A gangster may not display great loyalty in the beginning but if by the time they are wise guy they have still failed to do so, they simply would not rank. Do you really want to give this guy a button? And if you are not, why keep him here? This is a guy you can't trust. In my opinion, the honorable thing to do here is let him go somewhere else, preferably to an allied crew. Or you can go by the idea that you keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Either way, we agree that if you have not displayed that type of loyalty you do not deserve to be in that family.
Lower ranks do not have to be as loyal as made men. They just won't get promoted. It is expected of a Made Man to be loyal. It's not bullshit.
I said hypothetically because if I did not it WOULD be a thinly veiled threat. The idea that another crewleader would want to take me in if I was an exceptional crewmember isn't unrealistic. I'm sure you've been in a situation where you have a good loyal friend in another crew that you'd like to bring in. Maybe that friend has not earned his button and is not as loyal to his crew because he'd be more loyal to yours. Is this situation that unrealistic? Now since you did bring it up I will state for the record that I am loyal to my crew to the end. What small things I wanted from my crew were delivered beyond my expectations. To even ask to leave I would deserve to die.
Maybe you have never come across the idea that there were indeed some pretty incompetent leaders to come along. A lot of them got killed for it. Would you pursue getting made in that type of family? If another crewleader is interested in your work and things get worked out as such that you move to another crew you wouldn't be throwing everything away. Your new CL would already have an eye on you considering the trouble CL's go through to transfer someone. And if you prove to your new CL it was worth it you may get your button. In a way it is good that you said "NOTHING goes unnoticed by your leader." That means you've never been in a situation where this has happened. It does happen, but I agree that many times people are just idiots and do not make themselves noticed. However, when a CL does not make great use of a skill that is there whether it be due to disorganization or the blatant idiocy of the CL, that is when a member may choose to move on. In conclusion, I will provide some examples from my own short life here. I started with TM's crew. I was a lowly gangster, I had no responsibilities, I had yet to prove myself. TM got wiped out. I chose to move on and joined Kangaroo. This is where my loyalty grew. When he got killed I moved in with Marietta. I assumed it would be permenant until Caligula brought the Mocha Syndicate back. That is when I asked to be transfered. My loyalties are with the Mocha Syndicate. |
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| Reply by: NoDice at Sep 20, '08 09:19 | |
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"the difference and frankly it is applied equally in all crews." Equally = differently Don't know how that happened. Sorry. |
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| Reply by: NoDice at Sep 20, '08 09:32 | |
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For me, the bottom line is that each mobster chooses how they will act. Ultimately, how they choose to act will determine how far they go. I expect loyalty, respect and hard work from all my members, but I suppose they can CHOOSE not to act in such a manner. It will probably be a short life, but they can console themselves with the fact it is one they chose. Whilst there is a big different between being in a family and being a Made member of that same family, that's not to say there is a huge difference in how a CL will expect members to conduct themselves, regardless of rank. The aforementioned traits are an absolute minimum for getting your button but, alone, they're not enough to earn it. A complete lack of these traits guarantees you won't be getting Made and, in all likelihood, means that you are edging towards a swim under the midnight moonlight. I pay attention to all my members and converse with them on a daily basis, but if they haven't done enough to convince me that they deserve their button, then they themselves can work at resolving that issue, I won't pander to them...there's a family full of other people that have the same opportunities. I can help, but they are in control of their conduct, including making me view them as candidates to be Made. This does seem to have gone rather off topic from the opening speech, so I'll leave it there. |
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| Reply by: Caligula at Sep 20, '08 10:30 | |
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May I remind you all that the traditional methods of the Mafia is for people Earner and below to be considered mere "associates" of a family, and not an integral part of a family. Therefore, as ill-advised it may be, it IS supposed to be possible for the aforementioned low ranks to be able to flit between families. That said, one of the key untold rules of this cruel world are that you MUST be in a family before you hit the 48 hour mark or you'll die. Once you've joined a family to keep yourself alive, the crewleader will want to be rewarded with your unwavering loyalty, therefore you MUST be loyal to that family should you wish to live. Denver shrugs. Sometimes I wonder if we've lost our way a bit, when we look at the old traditions of the Mafia. |
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| Reply by: Denver at Sep 20, '08 10:56 | |
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