The recent war/takedown has brought up many questions.

Should KingSao have taken his "demotion" (I would call being asked to step down as a demotion) with a bit more grace? Should he have sent out that mail asking his family to delay moving over to bunny as long as possible? Did he endanger his whole family's lives by asking them to do this? DeadlySin could've easily seen which mobsters were active and not moving over to bunny, taken that as a knock on his leadership of Philly and exterminated those people too. In my eyes, he would have been well within his rights.

But the ultimate question I want to ask is... which side should/would you take? Your most trusted friends side or that of your city? Especially if the head of that city was making a decision you REALLY didn't agree with. I know that some people are going to say the city comes before anyone or anything else and some people won't be willing to speak their true feelings on this matter.

But there is a case for both sides...

Firstly, I'll do the obvious one. Your city.

You swore an oath of loyalty when you joined whichever family you are with. I'd guess that the vast majority of you had to sign your name to a set of rules and in those rules it would have probably said in one way or another... "loyalty to the family/city above all else". So therefore this should be an easy answer... your city wins every time. However, we have recently seen that this is not the case with everyone. Neon decided (right or wrong) that she would choose her friend (KingSao) over her city, she did not agree with her Godfather's decision to take down KingSao after his "mistake" and war ensued. Personally, I begrudgingly admire what Neon did. Simply because she stood up for what she believed in. Don't get me wrong, I'm pissed off with her for doing it as I lost a lot of friends who had worked extremely hard to get where they were, but part of me can't help but have a little respect for her gumption.

Note that when you die, your offspring may not be as well thought of in your city as they won't be as powerful as you are, because let's face it... power goes a long, long way in this world.

Now... bearing in mind the latter part of the above, I move onto your friends.

You have probably never swore an oath of loyalty to your friends because you were never forced to. Therefore, any feelings and connection you have with them is purely because they are a character you like and admire... maybe even look up to. When you die, your offspring is highly likely to be treated better with these people than by your former family/city as you have close ties with them. Maybe your son or daughter will get a bodyguard or two out of said friend as a leg up. Maybe they'll help supply a kill or 2 so your offspring can train their gun faster.

So... with this in mind, where do you stand? Do you split your loyalties? CAN you split your loyalties? I'm not sure it's even possible. If you were put in the position Neon was put in, would you back your friend knowing that they have helped you along the way and is more than likely going to help your son/daughter if help is needed. If you helped your friend then maybe their offspring if put in the same position further down the line would do the same for you. This IS how true friendships/alliances are formed in this world anyhow.

My opinion you ask?

Well... for me, it is an extremely tough one to answer. My bloodline has been notoriously fiercely loyal to their friends. I remember one time one of my ancestors (MysticWiggle) was in New York and a war broke out between (I think) LV/NO vs LA... LV had paid New Orleans to help them take down LA... which had an ancestor and namesake of none other than DeadlySin. DeadlySin was effectively the "last man standing" in LA and was all out of pro shooters. His pro time was up and he knew a shot was imminent so he contacted MysticWiggle for help... MysticWiggle duly obliged, brought out of his family and gave DeadlySin another 4 hours protection. DeadlySin also had help from 2 other people that fateful night. One directly and one indirectly (I'll keep the names and what they did to myself... if those 2 want to share their names and actions then thats upto them), thus keeping DeadlySin alive until Chicago, which was controlled by Roman stepped in to stop the war and take DeadlySin in. Ultimately, New Orleans shot DeadlySin during the night and chicago proceeded to wipe out New Orleans for it.

Would I do the same as my ancestor did and reach out to a friend? I think not this time. My reasoning being that this time around, I haven't taken the same route as my ancestors have. I've tried to take the time out to get to know most of the people in my city and grown quite fond of a lot of them. I don't think I could look in the mirror at myself if I turned my back on them for the sake of another friend from another city.

Any examples of loyalty to your city or friends from your ancestors like above would be much appreciated. Even if YOU can't say what you truly feel, your ancestors actions are already probably well known and therefore sharing information regarding them is just stating what people already know. Also if you wish to avoid getting involved in the main topic, then maybe answer one of the other question I posed at the start.

My bloodline is relatively knew here so I can't really claim to have a massive store of expertise on what has been said here. Also as a possible consequence of me being one of the younger bloodlines walking these Streets, I'd have to say that Family does trump all else with no exceptions. Your position as a member of your Family is what has kept you alive all this time. If not for your Family you would have died as soon as your 48 hours were up. Just another notch on the gun of a hitter. Your Family has protected you and has helped you reach wherever you are now. If you weren't alive, those bodyguards and kills won't do you lots of good.

This of course could be attributed to none of my ancestors never reaching a position where they had to choose between friends or Family. So, who knows what either I or my descendants would do if faced with such a predicament?

As to your first question, when DeadlySin first approached KingSao about stepping down I see it that KingSao had roughly 3 choices ahead of him; Take the demotion, refuse to take the demotion or stall for time, think it over. Now the thing is no matter what KingSao did or didn't do, DeadlySin had already decided that he was now surplus to requirements. Granted he may have preferred no bloodshed but hey what can ya do, this is the mafia after all.

As to which side would I take, since you first posed this question I've been thinking it over. Loyalty is a high priority in this world and that loyalty should always lie with your boss and city. However we all develop many connections in this life and in the coffeeshop. So, depending on the circumstances, I'd probably have made a similar choice to Neons.

For some, this "thing of ours" is cut and dried as "La Cosa Nostra."  They can place their loyalty with Crew, City, or Godfather (not always one and the same).  Other times, this "thing of ours" is about familial loyalty.    As much as we'd like to claim big bad loyalty to crew and city, we are a different breed.  Family associations can mean far more to us than allegiances our bloodlines might not adhere to. 

Let us assume for a moment that my good friend, Mr 47 left his civilian life of professorship to become a mobster again.  Let us imagine a scenario where my godfather told me to shoot at him.  Where does my loyalty lie?  Some would think I shoudl obey Phil and hope 47 understands.  Some would hope I defy Phil (or Mr. Steak) and stick with 47.  Others, still, would hope 47 would understand my actions.   Okay  this might be a bad example since I'd shoot 47 for fun.  And, he would understand.

But, the underlying question of temporary crew loyalty  (for as much as might be protested, we all know it's temporary) vs. personal friendships our families have made throughout time.  Will they understand it's business not personal?   Do we understand business vs. personal?  I do not have an answer.  But, the question is, indeed, business over personal.  Where do we draw the line in this "game" of life?  Should we draw the line?  Should this turn into personal and not business?  Fortunately, my family has not been required to make that decision.  But, it is an important philosophical decision to make.

  I have always felt my loyalty belongs to first my family then my city. Friends are last as well as much as I love them the life I chose and they chose doesn't allow me to be as loyal to them as say my family. I do feel I have a bias though as I am the lefty. I have a strong loyalty and respect for my godmother currently but I know one of my ancestors had a crew leader who wasn't exactly the best fit for my ancestor. So I know there has to be a few people who just don't rub the right way in the world. For those people they either can lie low and maybe one day branch out but really the realistic side of things that might just not happen. Its not often you outlive your leader.  I think sometimes you just have to take a chance with your crew leader and if you get real lucky you find someone that fits with your style of life. Also don't be afraid of being let down. It happens in this thing of ours. Patience is very rewarded. I still though feel a loyalty to my city big time though as well because I feel blessed to be able to chat with anyone and not really be letting down by their personality.

 Now to speak of the Philly incident as apart of a city that decided not to get involved I feel I have nothing to really say about what happened except sometimes you have to do what you have to do and if you or your ancestors cant live with the consequences of whatever choice you make then your probably not in the right line of work. I feel philadelphia and their allies did what they did to survive and who can fault them for that? If someone were to not feel loyalty against Innocence and attacked her I am sure she would probably do the same regardless of the reason she was attacked. I feel this is because to survive sometimes you have to get your hands dirty and do things you may not like.

Before I fell into a slumber last night I was conversing with another mobster privately and they raised a very valid and interesting point...

We are told we must have loyalty to the city/family above all else, however... do the people in power view things the same way?

As a completely random example, lets use DeadlySin and make up a scenario in which the tables are turned... if let's say... a Made Man for Lady-Fighters family was put in the spotlight over something, does DS have loyalty to his family (city) above all else? Would he back up the Made Man in Lady-Fighter's family over say... Squidmaster or Phil_Steak? Even if the Made Man was in the right, would DS do the same as we're supposed to do and put family first? Would he reprimand or even shoot Squid or Phil if a situation arose where he had to choose between the two? It puts an interesting slant on the whole loyalty aspect as we have seen many times before a Godfather or really powerful leader choose their friends, who may even be from another city over their family. Do YOUR leaders have loyalty to you over THEIR friends? Because surely... if they expect us to back them 100%, they must do the same back or the whole scenario is an exercise in futilty, no?

The person I was talking to said to me that they couldn't remember a time in their bloodline's history where they went against their leaders, but HAD been "thrown to the wolves" so to speak by them.

My ancestors knew a man, they say he was the best godfather they have ever served.

He held a city meeting with all of his crewleaders and hands and made one bold statement to them all.

"Be truthful with me, never lie to me. If I believe one of my city is in the right no matter whether they are a gangster or a Don. There is nothing I wouldn't do to protect a member of my city including taking down any city in our world."

Those few words struck a cord with my blood line.

I have lost count of the amount of coffee shop friends I have popped, my ancestors have pulled the trigger to take down their best friend at the time because that is what was needed to be done to protect our city. They have planned and executed the take downs of cities full of friends but ultimately.

Any person who I am a friend with via the coffee shops knows I will always do what I deem best for my city and irrelevant of the consequences for them each and every time we sit down and have a laugh about it. To me that is a sign of true friendship that goes above and beyond the occurrences in our world.

Loyalty between friends vs city/family.

That is one of the hardest questions one may impose to any one of us. It can't be answered easily as yes or no , it can't be easily executed without  a lingering thought that the other side in which you are going to turn your back on will curse , hate or just burn the bridge the two of you had made.

Logical and professional / business states that when one had signed the rules of the family one should be loyal to that family till the last breath he have , friends where will that factor comes in , I would say that more than once friends from another family leave their current family to join and help their friends so that when conflict arises there won't be a problem of interest . That in the end if there will be bloodshed they will not be torn apart on which will they give their loyalty .

I am already an old woman and time and again I have seen , that when you are in power ,whether you want to puke , after you  pull that trigger to your bestfriend when your Godfather told you so , you will do it. I had done it and it always pains me personally to do it . But this is the world we live in , it is harsh and hard . Dura Lex Sed Lex

Looks at her journal

To your second question I know of a man and I will say looks at Isiah_Rhodes and winks that we are talking of the same man. This man have a Crewleader that made a wrong thing he shot at a guy within his city , did the Godfather looks at the other side no, he punish the Crewleader as whats befitting him , a new cement shoes and being feed with the fishes.

I'm with Isiah_Rhodes on this one.

This is a question fraught with emotional tension due to the inevitable alliances we build across cities and families. However, when we first join a family, we put our name to the fact that we will always be loyal to said family and our city. That isn't something to be taken lightly, in my opinion. If you can't be true to your word, what have you got?

I have many friends, both old and new, spanning across this thing of ours. I may still be in touch with some of them in times to come; others I may lose along the way for various reasons. I'd like to think that so far in my career, anyone that has shared an encounter with me is immediately aware that I am fiercely loyal and will absolutely put family and city before friendship. Those friends who can see my actions for what they are - business - are the most valued. In return, I'd expect nothing less of anyone else. I would never begrudge someone for taking an action that they were bound to by duty, because I will invariably do the same thing.

That's the thing about friendship - it is mutable, constantly changing, with only a few exceptions for each of us; maybe even just one exception, that one person who never severs your friendship because they understand La Cosa Nostra on the same level as you do.

On the other hand, this thing...loyalty remains one of the staples of our very survival here. That will never change, and therefore my attitude towards it will never change. Regardless of whom you are loyal to, you must be loyal. I guess for most, the question comes down to whether that loyalty saves a friendship or saves your life and those of your comerades.

My life is business, and business is my life - options are not an option.

I will turn against anyone who supports the post office.

...

shakes his head

Everyone's a comedian nowadays.

That's not really a joke. When I take alignment tests I come up chaotic neutral, so I guess my greatest loyalty is to myself.

I came here because of Vaticus, but if he said he was team post office I would totally set him on fire. :)

the war that took roman and prremier and the other with sho surviving so damn long were two of my fav war. it was cool to see the gf roman and prem lasting so long despite being outnumbered and betraed

Will put it quite simply family come first always, often in war my family lines have shot at friends including striphes blood line, gone against satantas family line and most recently would of hunted clockworkangels line for that 1% chance.  These people are all near and dear to me, but when war comes or problems you have to stick by who protects, helps, ranks you as they are who put you and help shape you.  Most recently my line had the pleasure of serving LA and it was more pushed by the fact the leadership was involved with any member who would make the effort and thats something my lineage hasn't always had the pleasure of.  I would also say i would push for my family against the Godfather of a city to as anyone can make a bad decision at the top,  I think it is beyond just being w00t lets do it with a family, i think you still have to try and get yoru input in and even if the final decision is not yours, you still go with it as is a family decision.