For months... maybe even years now we have lived in a world where there is only one punishment for a "crime against nature", death. Whether it was someone disrespecting another in the streets, a PP/mug problem or quite simply the death of another mobster. Now.. to me, you have 3 totally different levels of disobedience there.
Disrespect to another in the streets to be fair is usually dealt with by a few choice words from his/her boss and if the warning is not heeded then the culprit meets his or his demise. For me, disrespect to another mobster from another city should be the norm... well not the norm, but on a subject close to whichever poster's heart they should be allowed to voice their opinions freely (but with the cross-city alliances this just doesn't happen at the moment), without fear of retribution for pouring out their hearts.

Onto the PP/Mug scenario... I've seen one instance recently where there was another punishment for someone who had mugged a member from the same city.. this person got demoted from Capo to Wise Guy which I was SO pleased to see! Something different, something away from the usual "you broke the rules, you're going to die now". But for the vast majority of cases I hear about an "unauthed mugging", if you will. The only solution seems to be death.

Also bear in mind that the person demoted here had a "Not pickpocket friendly" tag, yet the pickpocketer didnt take note, pickpocketed his victim regardless so the demoted person mugged back and got demoted for it. The city rules state that this city's members should not mug each other, so by rights demotion was the correct option in my eyes.

If I wasn't pickpocket friendly and someone sticks their hands in my damn pockets, you could bet your last dollar that I would be mugging them back as either they didnt respect me enough to adhere to my wishes, or they just didnt bother reading it.

Onto the death of another mobster. This one is pretty clear cut... if you take the life of another mobster, the 'eye for an eye' method suggests that you're going the same way pretty quickly unless you leave your family and take a pro. In extremely rare cases there are different solutions to the problem... a hefty chunk of compensation to the victim (and probably their boss) and a demotion if, for example the victim had just turned 48 hours old and accepted an invite as they turned... unbeknown to the killer.

So... where's the other solution I hear you ask?

Well, very recently the God's gave us a tool to use that could be very pertinent to some of these situations, the first one in particular (disrespect being shown in the streets to another person)...

The duel.

Instead of leaders and city heads having to deal with every miniscule problem that arises from someone in their city, perhaps they can leave it to the offended to deal with the problem and all the city head/leader has to do is mediate who gets the first shot or if it should be decided via a coin flip, then leave the 2 alone to settle their differences like real men.

For too long the bolds have had to mollycoddle and decide things for us... perhaps now we have means to put an end to this. Perhaps we have the means for people to solve their own problems now instead of bothering their upper structures when someone has said something that cut them deeply.

Anyone else in favour of moving this way? Personally I would love to see this implemented sometimes, the 'little guy' gets the satisfaction of retribution via their own gun. It takes a bit of workload off the decision makers hands and the God's get to see their new tool being used on at least a semi-regular basis.

With love, Countdown.

I'll have a consonant, a consonant, a third consonant, a vowel, another vowel, etc etc etc. Note to self, never start a stupid joke unless you can actually be arsed to go through with it.


Anyway. I LOVE that duelling has been made available to us as a whole. Not just to rankers and that the decision doesn't entirely lie with the upper structure. Now I know we are here to work for, listen to and follow our upper structures wishes but I really do love that this is being enforced in such a way that it would be detrimental for the upper structures to ban it. Kind of like what happened with mugging in the first few months. I guess what happened with that is what made the powers that be decide to take a tougher stance on the use of duelling.

I remember when duelling was the norm way for settling disputes. Whether it be between a Gangster and a Made Man or between two Don CL's with full HQ's. Settling disputes without the loss of an entire city between two crew leaders who have a quarrel between themselves that doesn't involve the city or the crew itself. Obviously organisation for the different levels and ranks in our world will be a little different. A Goomba duelling an Earner for example wouldn't really require much. A quick discussion with your crew leader as to why you are taking this action and why it is the only step forward and that's about it. If a Crew leader decides to duel another or even decide to duel anyone for what ever reason then obviously more thought is needed. When a crewleader dies, what happens to the crew etc etc etc.

So basically, I love that we now have this option available to us.

The one thing I am unsure about though is the fairness of it. If someone of rank does something out of line to someone not of rank and the agreed action was in fact a duel. The person who has been hard done by stands very very little chance of coming out of the duel alive. So not only has that person been hard done by but is also now dead for seeking retribution in an agreed manner. Should a duel not be stripped bare? All bodyguards told to stand and watch, all fancy weaponry taken away and each person given the same model of pistol and ammunition.

I am still unsure as to my specific personal opinion on this, but think it merits discussion.

Should a duel not be stripped bare? All bodyguards told to stand and watch, all fancy weaponry taken away and each person given the same model of pistol and ammunition.

I couldn't agree with this more. As you can see, there is a team of men towering over me (nothing unusual there) to protect me from the dirty rotten scoundrels of this world, like you Mr Jelly, but had I put myself in a position as described by yourself and Countdown where the only course of action was for myself and this other party to duel, I would hate to be given the upper hand in the duel because of the fact I was able to afford to hire these fine men.

A duel should be that, just like the old wild west, take your paces, steady your hand and draw round after round until one or both nail their target. Nothing fancy, nothing to protect you other than your gun in your hand.

I would love to know if there are others out there that share a similar view of this, or if i'm simply a crazy imp.

"Should a duel not be stripped bare? All bodyguards told to stand and watch, all fancy weaponry taken away and each person given the same model of pistol and ammunition."

~Mr. Jelly

"A duel should be that, just like the old wild west, take your paces, steady your hand and draw round after round until one or both nail their target. Nothing fancy, nothing to protect you other than your gun in your hand."

~Mr. Lannister

 

I have to say. I couldn't agree more there with both of you. I think it would be only fair to have both fields evened out. But the meanings of a duel, who shoots who first. Doesn't make sense to bring a tank (IWP protection) to a duel against a Knight and his horse (Protected) Can anyone call those odds? Ofcourse. I think its great to settle like gentlemen 10 paces out and turn and fire like the wild wild west. The Flip of a coin! That's just opinion 

Whilst the idea of two men of honour standing 20 paces apart, pistols drawn, may sound romantic, I respectfully remind you gentlemen that this is the mafia not Edwardian times, and we are not men of honour. Oh sure we may try to con ourselves and each other with the gentleman rogue routine, we all know that our true honour begins and ends with our families and leaders. Yes I may have respect for your rank, but believe me when I say I would sell you down the river in a heart beat if you weren't from my city and it suited my purposes. The same holds true with duelling. Do you honestly think I would give up any advantage I may have to give you a sporting chance? Do I look like a sports man?


If I live, I'll kill you. If I die, I forgive you.

I dont think anyone has misguided ideas of romance here, certainly not with Mr Jelly anyway. Nor is the concept about sporting nature in my view. Personally I just feel that a Duel is something done on common ground, you do not duel someone with an army beside you whilst that person stands alone, thats not a duel.

A duel is an arranged engagement in combat between two individuals, with matched weapons in accordance with agreed-upon rules.

If someone wished to simply act on their own and shoot their intended victim without a duel, then by all means thats a different kettle of fish altogether. That would be something more akin to the mafia life you mentioned Raoul. But in challenging someone to a duel you are surely offering up a chance to settle a dispute where one will live, and one will die. No-one within their right mind (leaving only Kuklinski) would accept a duel with someone that brings a massive advantage to the table with them.

Of course thats simply my view, we are all entitled to our own opinions and I respect that yours differs from mine.

Well I am willing to concede to the bodyguard issue Mr Lannister, perhaps it is a tad foolish to expect to bring an army with one when you are going duelling. However, let me up another scenario for you delectation.

A godfather, lets call him SteadilyDin, has ruled Boston with an iron fist for over a year. There is little to interest him any more except his one true love, pick pocketing. Its rumoured that he is so good, that he actually picked the pocket of Squishy one time. True story. Whilst in Jonesborough, he picks the pocket of BillyFletcher, a 25 hour old Gangster who clearly has 'No pick pocketing or else' tattooed across his forehead. Alas Steadily is having an off day and the Gangster see's him, and challenges him to a duel. Do you think that this Gangster with his gun barely out of the shrink wrap should have an equal chance of killing our tyrant godfather with his countless hours of training?

My only problem is the idea of demoting someone who is a made guy to a rank of Wiseguy or lower. Once you are made, you cannot be unmade. It's a vow for life, and the only way out is in a coffin. When a made guy screws up, he either gets a pass, compensates the offended party monetarily, or gets a good ass chewing from the Boss with a warning that future unsavory conduct will meet with harsher consequences. Rarely does a made guy get whacked unless he betrays the family or does something egregious against another made guy.

I think we pay far too much respect to those who are not made. They are not members of this thing of ours, yet we normally extend to them the same rights and privileges that friends of ours enjoy. If anything, THAT is something that should be looked at.

Forgive me for interjecting, but I noticed a conversation that interested me and felt like adding my two cents in.

My only problem is the idea of demoting someone who is a made guy to a rank of Wiseguy or lower. Once you are made, you cannot be unmade. It's a vow for life, and the only way out is in a coffin. When a made guy screws up, he either gets a pass, compensates the offended party monetarily, or gets a good ass chewing from the Boss with a warning that future unsavory conduct will meet with harsher consequences. Rarely does a made guy get whacked unless he betrays the family or does something egregious against another made guy.

 I think we pay far too much respect to those who are not made. They are not members of this thing of ours, yet we normally extend to them the same rights and privileges that friends of ours enjoy. If anything, THAT is something that should be looked at.

I know where you are coming from Mortimer but I believe for the large part this is already addressed. 

Made Men already have the right to conduct organized crimes and the privilege to sponsor associates under their guidance if given the additional nod from their Crew Leader. In addition, Made Men and up take more money in cuts from organized crimes, a number that climbs as they rank.  Those in the promoted structure do in fact have some earning and crew privileges that can amount to considerable increases in assets and interaction if they conduct themselves well and intelligently in their position.  Stripping these privileges away to me seems like a punishment that should be handled on a crew by crew basis.  What it means to be Made in one crew may not necessarily carry over to the next, it's all up to leadership and what they think being a Made Man in a family means.

Also, and this is my opinion, I think you will find that punishments for breaking the rules and acting out of order are generally not rank dependant. People tend to get treated based on whom they are, what they are doing and what they have done.  All of these things come together in determining consequences and lies mainly on who the person is behind the rank and the title they hold.  At the same time, some punishments are universal.  It just depends on the Leadership's perspective.

Countdown you speak of things that I think many can agree with. Especially those who have been around for a bit longer than others. 

I'm most definitely happy to see dueling brougt into this thing of ours. It is a way to settle things without just plain out murdering another or starting a war. It allows those of the lower ranks to settle disputes that previously needed the attention of those in the upper structure. Petty matters should not be of such importance to the top mobsters in a city. There are things that need more attention than pick pocketing incidents and petty arguments. 

Now the gods have given us the answer. Dueling. Not to be used uneccesarily, but when people feel that something can't be settled without the death of another. Hopefully this will stop CL's from having to waste time on pick pocketing matters, arguments, etc. Along with stopping small matters from causing bigger issues.

I definitely want to see this thing of ours move towards this way of thinking and acting.  

A godfather, lets call him SteadilyDin, has ruled Boston with an iron fist for over a year. There is little to interest him any more except his one true love, pick pocketing. Its rumoured that he is so good, that he actually picked the pocket of Squishy one time. True story. Whilst in Jonesborough, he picks the pocket of BillyFletcher, a 25 hour old Gangster who clearly has 'No pick pocketing or else' tattooed across his forehead. Alas Steadily is having an off day and the Gangster see's him, and challenges him to a duel. Do you think that this Gangster with his gun barely out of the shrink wrap should have an equal chance of killing our tyrant godfather with his countless hours of training?

I do Raoul, that is entirely my view. The fictitious Godfather in your example is still just a man at the end of the day. Whilst he is stronger and more powerful in this thing of ours than young Billy, they are both simply men. Steadily however is under zero obligation to accept this mans duel. A man of his stature would look at the request and probably soil himself with laughter.

Unless a duel is on equal grounds, it isn't a duel in my opinion.

I am quite shocked at some of the comments here.

It seems a few of you want to go legit and get yourselves some honor.

Fuck that shit. I don't want honor as Raoul said we are not in Edwardian times, we are not the upper classes from England. We are dirty scoundrels, people who would snatch a purse, rob a 7/11, trade on human misery. There is no honor in these acts so we have no honor to defend.

If you really think I am going to risk my life by taking 20 steps spinning around and firing a revolver you are highly mistaken. I am far more likely to take two steps spin around and pop a bullet in you.

As far as I am concerned you offer to duel me you are accepting you want to die, it is then down to me as to whether I put the bullet in you or not.

I believe if you want equal terms, you still have that option: Duel someone equal to your own protection.

No one is forcing anyone to go up against a EWP, OWP or IWP if they themselves have no protection, they have a choice to decline or not offer the duel in the first place, and if people that have that amount of protection wish to duel each other they have that freedom as well. But you can't expect for people that have lived for ages and earned the amount of protection they have, to accept a duel knowing their life would be wasted attempting to duel someone of equal age based on a coin flip with all of their bodyguards stripped away, a war would be the easier option to settle a dispute for the older gentlemen among us. But that is something duels were hopefully meant to avoid, and an honorable man would accept the fact that he would be dueling someone with the same amount of protection, standing a slight chance to win or lose, but at least to both of them it would be a fair fight.

Choose your opponents wisely, and you will have your equal terms, if you do not then it is your loss really, the choice to offer or accept a duel is yours in the end.

That my dear Braavosi is entirely the point. A duel isn't done based on who you want to fight, is it? You duel because you feel there is no other way to resolve the issue.

So in reality, the fact remains that such duels will only be contested against those amongst us that have little to lose and war will remain the status quo. I'm not saying thats a bad thing, though. Just that my view on the duel clearly differs to some others around here.

Lets not forget, I do have the luxury of a fine rabble of men behind me, sure most of them are idiots from a damn mountain clan but all the same they will fight to the bitter end for me, but I would gladly ask these men to stand aside and let me fight my own battle if I were to offer/accept a duel.

And that my friends, is how the Imp sees it.

Perhaps this should be offered to the Gods then:

A new term of agreement in a duel, to duel with or without your bodyguards (default being with, and with all options available). If the choice is without bodyguards then the only options available should be coin flip and shoot at the same time, but it should be easy to see that the offer to duel sent to you is without the use of your bodyguards (should be stated in the terms sent with the offer, in bold and preferably in caps so no one mistakenly accepts it thinking the duel was with bodyguards). I believe that's one way to solve this matter, and make everyone happy, I guess.

As far as the speech goes, as I forgot to comment earlier. I don't think it would work, not as a punishment anyway, the other person has the option to keep declining, thus if he really has offended someone and needs punished if the offence was severe enough, would keep getting away with it. Some matters need to be dealt by the heads, especially if it requires death as a punishment or you would see no one punished if it were left to a duel where someone has the freedom to decline. And if out of frustration of said person declining the other person decided to just up and shoot them in the face, that person would get shot in the face as well, I think to avoid that, any "punishments" should be left to the family heads of the respective families, and not to the individual members. By all means duel if you're bored or want to settle a "dispute", but that's really all it should be about it.

I must agree with the majority of people here. I believe we should have the option to duel with or without bodyguards. The coin flip or both shooting at the same time stops it being unfair to whoever gets the first shot because let's be honest.. when it comes to a duel, you need a certain amont of luck to come out on top.

No, we dont live in Edwardian times where honour is top of everyone's skill set. However, I think you would be surprised at the amount of people who still hold that trait in high regard and let's not forget... a lot of people here didn't buy their own BG's, their boss did. Therefore the boss has the right to demand they set aside their vast array of bodyguards for a duel (if the leader believes that the punishment in the form of a duel must happen). My bodyguards are not mine, I would never have got them without Squidmaster/DeadlySin/Phil_Steak's hard earned cash and general agreement that I deserved them. So... as has happened a few times before, if I upset someone with something I've aimed at them in the streets and DS believed that the person I aimed it at has a right to challenge me to a duel, I would happily set my bodyguards aside on his say so... he is my boss, they are HIS bodyguards, not mine. Even without my bodyguards, I still have a chance of surviving.

Personally I think people are too hung up that no BG's will equal death in a duel but that just isn't the case. We've seen CRAZY misses here more than people think... during the last war with LA I had a mere 27 bodyguards and someone with (apparently) 413 notches on their gun missed me. Crazy huh? My pappy told me of a certain JesseJames missing Raptor too. There will be many more We've also seen the flip side of that... the IWP's dying by being shot at by people that REALLY should not have hit, but they rolled the dice and got lucky. Everything is not so 'set in stone' here... in fact I'd go as far to say as that there is plenty of chances to do the unexpected, people just don't take a chance anymore like they used to.

Still a believer that this could settle disputes that have arisen orally in the streets.