I was hearing the dulcet tones of MichaelLaMotta talking about an official mafia structure and I was going to respond, but I got a little caught up in where I was going and I've spawned something a little different so I thought I should probably start a whole new thread about it. I'm confident it is what Roberto_Carlos (Consigliere) would want me to do.

Our current structure served us well when people strove towards earning the rank and they didn't really hold it for very long. There was a lot to be said in the old game for just managing to make it to Consigliere and a lot of people played again and again in order to try and reach a higher rank next time around. Contrast this with our current climate, where the difficulty in achieving a rank has been completely eradicated and if you aren't stupid, it is usually a comfortable ride to the upper echelons.

What does this mean?

Essentially, the increase in account length has led to ranks being readily achievable and this in turn has created a scenario where the make up of our families are imbalanced and unrealistic. Imbalanced in that we have top heavy families comprised of multiple Dons and unrealistic in that there are Gangster's bossing those Dons around, which regardless of your view on the whole trust/RHM position, in terms of realism, it is totally and indefensibly wrong. However, this isn't the real world and sometimes our genre doesn't lend itself comfortably to the medium of our experiencing it.

What I mean by this, is that sadly Mafia doesn't always work well as an interactive roleplaying game across the internet, so we have to make allowances for where we are and how we are getting our Mafia fix. This led me to think, is it possible to make our current ranking system, more realistic and less top heavy, without compromising on the actual playing of the game? Whilst it is going to be a significant diversion from our current setup, I believe this can be done.

So...

Every account now has a level that reflects their overall ability. This level is not determined by the rank that the game deems you to hold, just by the amount of work you have put in. This means that currently, you can be a Level 20 Gangster or a Level 60 Don. What if then, on the basis of your level, your sponsor or your Don are able to assign you a rank that better reflects your standing within a family? Sounds weird and wrong? Well, maybe a little, but stick with me.

How would it work?

So...

Every account now has a level that reflects their overall ability. This level is not determined by the rank that the game deems you to hold, just by the amount of work you have put in. This means that currently, you can be a Level 20 Gangster or a Level 60 Don. What if then, on the basis of your level, your sponsor or your Don are able to assign you a rank that better reflects your standing within a family? Sounds weird and wrong? Well, maybe a little, but stick with me.

You sign up, you're a Thug with no affiliations, just a desire to make yourself known and to get yourself some god damn respect! This is the first rank, automatically dished out by the game.

The next step, you find a gang to run with, an Associate is able to offer you his protection and show you the ropes. You aren't anyone yet, but if things started getting heavy, at least you know a couple of guys who would have your back and you know to keep your head down if you see the law. You're a Gangster, automatically dished out by the game when you accept the invite.

You've been with your gang, pulling the graveyard shifts, doing the legwork and not really seeing much come of it, but you've passed whatever you could make up the chain. You've done the grunt work and got yourself in the door enough that the Wise Guy who had your back puts in a good word with one of the Made guys. You're an Earner now, given by the Made Man who invited you.

You've been trusted with more responsibility, collecting some debts, providing muscle on a few little scores and you've caught the eye of a couple of the Made guys. You're a Wise Guy.

You're around Made Guys, keeping an eye on the guys doing your grunt work and you've started to build up relationships with the higher ups. One of them wants to take you in and bring you into better jobs, with better people. He calls you his Associate.

As an associate, you're representing a Made Man, you aren't quite untouchable but you're pretty close. You're the guy the soldiers look to if something needs doing. You're the guy the soldiers ask to fix a problem when it crops up. Finally, after all your work, someone's ready to vouch for you and bring you in. The books are opening, you're a Made Man, given to you by your Don.

Once you reach the rank of Made Man, unless your Don makes you his Underboss, decides that you're a Captain, or gives you the green light to start up a family of your own, this is the highest rank you're likely to achieve. The vast majority of players will end up being Made Men, which might seem a little boring, but it is much more realistic.

How will this not suck?

As everyone is leveled now, the features that would usually be unlocked by your progression through the ranks could be unlocked as you increase in level. Alternatively, additional ranks could be added, which are tied in with the Made Man status, such as experienced Made Man, senior Made Man, and so on for as many as we require.

We would likely require some sort of minimum time before which you could be given certain ranks by your Don/Made Man to symbolie the passing of time. If someone has been on the block 5 minutes, it is still very unlikely the Don would open the books for him.

How will this be better than what we have now?

This will be a much more realistic family setup. You will have 1 Don, 1 Underboss, several Capos/Captains who run the other Made Men, lots of Made Men, Associates chosen by their Made Men who can invite people below them to join the crew, Wise Guys working their way up, Earners who want to be someone, Gangsters just starting out and Thugs who have nothing.

All the ranks will be a true reflection of where you stand within a family. A Made Man is given their button by the boss and is truly an important rank, rather than just a stepping stone to something higher. A Capo runs a crew, like a real Capo does and their are only a finite number of them. The lower ranks are all given by the Made Man who is the boss of the Associate who invited you, so that they can accurately show your progress and how close you are to reaching the next rung on the ladder.

I envisage each Made Man having their own crew page where they can monitor the progress of their underlings. Each Capo will be a branch under one family, but have a crew page to monitor the Made Men within their crew. The Don will have a crew page for each of his Capos, each crew, who is in it and what has been tributed to him by each Capo.

The crew chat will be for the whole family, but each Capo will have their own HQ forum. Each Capo can have a maximum of 15 Made Men in their crew, and a Don cannot appoint a new Capo until each crew has at least 10 Made Men in it. This should limit the number of Capos enough to maintain the importance of the rank and the structure of the family.

With the inclusion of districts, it is likely that there would be someone, either through diplomacy or muscle, who is seen as the strongest family. Perhaps an additional rank could be incorporated, for the head of the strongest/most senior family and bestowed upon them by the Dons of the other families, that of Godfather. Whether just cosmetic or adding stats, I don't know yet, but it sounds cool in my head.

Disadvantages

Once you get to Made Man, unless you impress, you might have to stay at this rank for awhile and some people may feel it is something of a glass ceiling.

It will be radically different from what we have now and change the structure that has been a staple of this game for many years

Advantages

It will be realistic
It will be different and new
It will bring true meanings to the ranks as they are all given by people gauging your progress
It will make people at Made Man more likely to try things to impress/change things
It will reassign the responsibility for the lower order of a family to the people most likely to be dealing with them
It will make level more than just an indicator of your units

Summary

- Restructuring ranks and ranking
- One Don, one underboss, several captains, everyone else Made Man or below
- Made Man responsible for promoting everyone below them
- Don responsible for promoting everyone from Associate and beyond

I've put this together pretty quickly and I'm sure I've overlooked things and it will have gaping holes in it. I'm confident this is the right model to follow though and the inevitable discrepancies can be ironed out as they are raised.

Hope this catches the attention of people.

This would address the ‘top heavy’ aspect of the game currently which is something that may not have happened in the past (to the extent it is now) and I do like the idea, it’s just a case of will we be losing the identity of MR. We have always been the Goombas, Wiseguys and Consiglieres. Not sure how people would react to a wholesale change of the ranking system.

Perhaps it is time for something like this if we are fed up with this strange occurrence of having multiple Dons in one family.

Personally I think it’s a fantastic theory and if implemented I would support and get behind.

Fantastic idea.

Well proposed, well written. I love the aspect of the realism. Specifically going from a Gangster and working become an associate for a Made Man. Fresh new idea that brings more realism across the board is fantastic.

Maybe even introduce a Consigliere rank/position as well.

It makes sense. But will rank in any way limit me from obtaining ALL THE DRUGS?

I have a major issue that, for me, causes strong dislike of this idea. This game already runs largely on cliues. CLs, Hands, and other, are decided more on relationships of years, then on merit of play, leaving some of us newer players in the dust. I Have to very strongly argue against anything that would make that situation worse.

It's already hard enough to get any real power due to cliques, lets not make it impossible.

How is that making it impossible?

If anything it allows for more Crews/Capos/Captains. You don't need to be in a clique to be part of that. If anything that would mean more opportunity.

Thats great in theory. But i'm looking around these days, and despite this change and that change that are supposedly going to "create more reason to add more crew leaders" I'm not buying it. we have seen repeated calls for more crews, not just from players, but from the bloody admins, and almost nothing is happening. i was pleasently surprised to see a couple new auths these last few days, but the fact remains, auths have been much to few and far between, and that isn't going to change.

I will admit i was exagerating for effect when I said impossible. But I still don't like the idea of making it so that Fewer people will achieve the higher rank. I don't see a huge chance, with the current system, or any of the others i've seen, for folks like me to get our shot at leadersship. Cuuting down the ranks I can achieve, simply cuts down the number of reason I have to push for my personal best.

Don't change the game. This is a place where I would far rather see the game-ness take precedence over historical accuracy.

You have given the districts all of two days and you saying that you don't believe there will be more auths? I'm sorry but you are greatly mistaken. There are numerous crew leaders with godfather points and its only a matter of time they announce a successor.

And with this new suggestion, it only gives more people the chance of being a Capo/Captain due to JamesKnowles saying that Captains would only have a crew of 15 or so. And then even within the crew, a Made guy would have his own associate and such. I don't know how you're missing the point of there being more of a chance...

JamesKnowles... I love the idea...

i loved it the first time I proposed almost the exact same structure over 6 years ago :/

Sadly, a lot of people enjoy the ranking and sitting with titles gameplay rather than realism and an altruistic game culture...

Personally, I'm not a man that has been very fond of titles.

 I prefer being the guy with big brass balls (BBB) that is a level 50 Wise Guy with a sharp tongue and quick trigger who is aged over two months.. then a Boss with nothing but rank and name to show for it.

ultimwtely, levels, age, and hard work should determine the total skills and percentages.. Not rank.  

In essence, if I'm as old as a Don and have only made the rank of wise guy in my family, I should still be able to have a great shot at taking out a godfather if granted auth to do so.  Duh?

Ok, first, your comment about the districts. there is a flaw with the idea that districts would cause auths from the beginning. That concept relies on the godfathers/current crew leaders ACTUALLY AUTHING people. Adding more space, or rearrainging the space has no bearing on that. We had open cities, and NONE of them were filled. how should the districts be any different? Especially when every current district has at least one CL in it already.

<blockquote cite="Origanal Post by JamesKlowles">The vast majority of players will end up being Made Men, which might seem a little boring, but it is much more realistic.</blockquote>

That says it all. In this case, realism will cut far too many people out of the loop. Even at only 15 members per crew. the way this suggestion is set up, you have one Don, One under boss, and Capos/captains, each with their own crew. Assuming that all crews are full, thats rough 6.6% of the userbase who gets to run a crew. Out of the current approx. 742 users(based on effective BG count per user and Sitewide effective BG count, that's about 48 CL spots. Currently, with 19 crews, we have a total of 57 CL/RHM/LHM positions. So if the system changed right this second, 9 people lose their job.

And don't tell me that the number goes up with growth, cause the User count isn't going anywhere, and the percent stays the same low number.

This game, as a Mafia simulation, will always run on cliques. This is primarily because the Mafia is a pretty cliquey kind of place.

I don't feel that this system would in any way make the game more or less cliquey than it already is. If your leader isn't putting you in a position of authority at the moment, whether he doesn't as a result of this system is kind of irrelevant because you aren't there now.

I purposely scrapped the LHM position being given slanties, because it is a redundant position that we have glamorised here, primarily to give more people more of a taste of responsibility. I suppose you could incorporate it in here if your Don isn't capable of saying "this guy is my number 3", so you could add back in some of the positions you have quoted as us losing. But really, the idea is to take our some of our additions which aren't really factually accurate and replace them with ones that are.

With this in mind, instead of having 10 Dons with very small families, we would have 1 Don with 4-5 Capos and these Capos would hold a very respectable position, like it is in the Mafia. In reality, the Don is not even remotely involved in the day to day street level activity that we have ourselves embroiled in. They would catch far too much attention and honestly, it is much below their station. By elevating the Capo position to that similar to our current crewleaders, this should give plenty of opportunity for people to actually lead and, with the crew being small and within a branch of a larger family, I think this should encourage more diversity in terms of who is afforded these positions as it will offer the Don more security than giving someone who hasn't been tested a family of their own.

As to the districts, there will undoubtedly be further auths as MichaelLaMotta pointed out, people are sitting with Godfather points with nobody to take their families. I'm sure you will see new auths in the next few days when whatever kinks are holding up the process are worked out.

At the moment, most people are really the equivalent of Made Men within a family. They might hold the rank of Don, Consigliere, Boss or Capo, but they don't hold any responsibility of leading a crew and therefore they are really just someone who has made their bones in a family, with an inappropriate title. All this change would do in this regard is tighten up the authenticity of our families by giving everyone a rank that is reflective of their standing in the family.

In terms of having nothing to strive for, the additional features that come with each rank would still be unlockable the higher your level goes. Similarly, you could add further tiers within the Made Man rank, such as Experienced Made Man or Veteran Made Man. These tiers should probably be applicable to the other ranks as well, because there is a big difference in terms of respect given to a veteran Wise Guy as to someone just on his way up.

Essentially, we would be doing away with some of the autonomy, much of the inaccuracy and redistributing the authority to those who would realistically hold it. It is unlikely that a no name Gangster would get brought in by the Don. It is unlikely that a Capo, Boss, Consigliere or Don would be in the street taking on new recruits as that is much below their pay grade. Instead, the street level guys would bring in the other street level guys and when they have done enough to make their bones, they would move up and someone would take over their role.

It is easy to get lost in the fact that their will only be one person holding a certain rank, but I will use our current crew to refute your claim about people being cut out of the loop and to demonstrate that the numbers you've quote are wrong.

Old system:

ClockworkAngel has 46 members
1 RHM
1 LHM
This gives 3 actual leadership positions.

With the new system:

ClockworkAngel is the Don
Ballistic is the Underboss/Consigliere
Frank_Sinatra is a Capo with Supff, Capengo-001, Silke, J-Love, UncleSam, Kade, Angel_Islington, Zadie, Sweet_Pea and Bilby as members
Giraffity is a Capo with Philli-Stein, PITBOSS, Nicodemo, kylemassacre, Kalliiope, Wiz_Khalifa, Stewie, Frank-Pirazzi, Sinfest and SaraiLeaf as members,
Syn is a Capo with Squire, OG_BloodgangShawty as his members.
Each of those Made Men has their own Associate who works for them out of the remaining 19 members of the crew

Rather than the 3 positions we have now, we have 6 actual leadership positions.

This stands the same for the majority of families here and I only picked ClockworkAngel as she was your leader. I could do the same for any established family within the game.

There are currently 648 sponsored people within MR and of those 55 currently hold a position of either CL, RHM or LHM. With this new system, when a family starts out there will be at least 3 people holding a position in a family with it growing over time to usually double that.

We could also keep the current system that the Don or Underboss may invite people until the family reaches 25 members to ensure that they are not adversely hindered by the change.

You dont have to be in the 'cliques' to get some where in this game. When I first joined Phil_Steaks family back in Philly, he didnt know who I was. I didnt know him. I knew his RHM at the time, but that was it. Hardwork, dedication, and doing everything you can caught his eye and eventually earned me a shot at a bold suit. So its not all about cliques.

I dig your idea associate JamesKnowles.

JamesKnowles hit the nail on the head.. many times.  

I'd like to believe that we deserve better than what we have come to accept for a rank and structure.  What makes the game so fun is surviving, thriving, family, and protecting family.  As a Mafia simulation, we are ultimately limited by the amount of Roleplay and structures we afford to ourselves.  I don't see anyway how scrapping the rank/titles system and replacing it with a numerically accurate one would affect gameplay in a negative way?  Perhaps hurt a few egos out there, but not affect gameplay...

As I said before, the reason the leveling system was even first discussed years ago, was with the intention of incorporating this structured family rank system additionally.  I feel as if the hybrid and watered down version that we have now is beneath us... Our community can do better.  We can make the game more fun!

The key is changing the rank structure in a way where the burden of skill traits and percentages is passed off to the level and then the rank is utilized as a structured title and position in the family only.  However, having level minimum requirements for ranks should still be in place.  For example....

Lets say there are 5 Made Titles/Ranks in families: Don (Family Leader), Underboss (RHM), Consigliere (LHM), Capos (Crew Leaders), Made Men (Soldiers).  We can also put a numerical limit on the amount of capos and made men in a family for each size HQ to help roleplay.  Then, a handful of Non-Made Crew Ranks:  Wise Guy, Enforcer, Associate.  Then rename the unsponsored ranks to gangster and thug.  We  could make it so if there are 100 total levels, the minimum required for Don is 70.  We could have level 70 Associates who technically could be asked in a war to take out a Don of another family if they have spent that long and worked that hard to get to the same level.  Essentially, levels determine skill level and abilities only while rank and titles take a backseat to act as family strucural positions.  That way, we grant titles to the people we trust and who have worked for it, while allowing people who as individuals are working towards being bad assees in their own right, the level credibility they deserve.  Some people may fear allowing people they don't trust to get to a higher level in their crew.... Well why did you employ them in the first place dumb ass?  You do have an HQ button... Try using it!  :)

Also, there will be some fretting over the implications in the event of a reset or people being killed so there are no Dons left.  Perfect question, allow me to answer...

We can differentiate crews established under a leader who is under the level minimum for Don as a "Boss," that way we can differentiate between leaders who have earned the title and those who have yet to do so.  So lets say you are a level 45 who has been given the nod to start up your own family.. Or maybe you made the claim yourself.  Regardless, you start up with an HQ only 25 people large... Instead of taking the title of Don, you are simply a Boss who then has an Underboss (RHM)... Etc... Until you earn the level minimum to be called a true Don.  That way, you personally have a goal to work towards while also giving key people in your family positions where they would benefit most.  

The unofficial rule in the Mafia is that Dons don't kill other Dons... You send someone to do it.  But all too often our leaders have the best guns and are forced to be on the frontline of the battlefields... I believe they should have a choice of who they send and give them the open risk of losing their family structure if they risk their top RHM and capos in battle... That's life... Risk :)

Put quite simply, this WOULD make people feel less likely playing. I know if I got to made man, and there was only going to be the benefits of being a consig in the old way of ranking, I would just give up. What's the point? Believe it or not, that title is a big part of what drives people to play. And also, the way it seems you're suggesting it, we would do away with Godfathers. If the Don is running several small families, that takes out the Godfather position, which is the main thing that people strive for in the game. 

Let's all just face it, there are some things, like rank; Izzy has even said this himself, that are not going to change for the more realistic strictly because it would not work. This to me is a very well thought out suggestion. I do think it would be good if someone was to start a game where people aren't used to over a decade of the same thing. Pretty much you would take away from tradition, and also, it would honestly bore me as I stated before. I would get made in no time, and just eventually idle out because there would be no point in putting in more effort because if they were going to give me my own crew, then I would  start playing. Other than that, why would I? And I believe it would make the game more clique-ish because all you would have to do is get a sponsor that you like to rank. Which pretty much ruins the point of doing that in the first place. 

This is just how I feel about it. Take it or leave it. 

Rather than just taking or leaving it, maybe you could elaborate a little more as to why you feel the way you do and thereby help me to understand your criticism.

From what you've said, if I'm following you correctly, you believe that you would get bored with the game once you reach the new Made Man status and that nobody would have a Godfather status to strive for and this would also reduce the appeal of the game.

In response to this, I would ask why you would now get bored at the new Made Man status? Do you get bored with the game now once you get to Consigliere or Don? If you don't, then why would you get bored with the game at the new Made Man status which is the equivalent of these positions? If you do, then you're already bored and surely trying something new is not going to bore you any more than you already are.

Your options as to what you can do won't be any more limited, in fact they'll be increased as in addition to being given the nod to start your own family or buying out and starting one, there will be further positions within your family available.

Godfather status would still be an option, as I mentioned in the suggestion and something of a pinnacle to be achieved for anyone. However, the real position to strive for would be that of Don, which would essentially be the new Godfather.

A Don would only have 1 family, of which there would be branches headed by Capos. The family size would not increase, so I would imagine this would result in a similar amount of authorisations to now.

As to the clique-ish comment, don't you already just have to find a sponsor who likes you and you rank? I'm pretty that is going to happen whatever system we employ.

This suggestion would tighten up the realism of our families without compromising in gameplay and would also, I believe, redistribute the responsibility to where it is more likely to be. I don't think by incorporating this change the game would suddenly become more or less interesting, because really, it isn't the ranks that determine how fun the game is to play.

Whilst I am pretty, as Roberto_Carlos (Consigliere) always tells me, I meant I'm pretty sure that is going to happen whatever system we employ.

I do get bored at Don actually. I've been there. I was demoted for BGs within a couple weeks so I didn't have a full chance to feel the boredness kick in before, but I did get slightly bored. Especially since I knew I wasn't going to get GF as I wasn't even IWP nor CL yet. And with this, from what I've gathered of it, you stop ranking at made basically unless you get auth. Well, that would basically set in the boredom sooner for me as I'm sure others would agree with. That is really my biggest problem with it. You're going to stop ranking at made, so 25 units? If I get to that and I have to wait until I'm auth ready, I'll never get auth ready because I'll quit playing before then. People don't like being held back. That's why you see wiseguy suicides every now and then. They'll have 35 units or so, suicide because they haven't earned their CL's trust to get promoted. Well, if you take away the option for the CL to promote you, you are essentially giving people the feeling they are being held back.

And honestly, this suggestion sounds very mafia matrix-ish. That's pretty much exactly how that game is run. And most that are/were playing, are bored with it. 

Man Go,

It sounds to me as if you completely misconstrued the entire system and the point of many of its various facets...

You wouldn't get bored until you level to 100 or whatever the level cap is and if you ask DeadlySin, I'm sure he will tell you it takes a fucking while as things stand even now...

the idea is to make ranks what they are supposed to be and that's positions within the family... Not to stroke your ego or whatever else...

I get what you're saying and I understand the concern you have. However, we aren't talking about just deleting the ranks above Made Man, brushing our hands together and saying "well, there you go" as that would get pretty boring. We're talking about reorganizing the ranks so that the milestones occur at different times.

Made Man, in this system, would have to take much longer than 11 days to achieve, because given that the account life is usually at least a couple of months, there really wouldn't be much to break things up and I agree things would become more monotonous. But, if you had to spend longer on the way to making your bones, that would hopefully go some way towards making that milestone into something more important. Plus, if we incorporated different tiers within some of the ranks, like "experienced" or "veteran", then you could still get different ranks to help prevent things going stale.

This won't solve the game's endemic problems, however it will be much more tolerant of them and the increased account longevity. It will also redistribute the responsibility to where it should be as well as opening up additional leadership positions, all of which should be a bonus.

I haven't played Mafia Matrix, but if they use a similar system, good for them.

Ballistic, I'm just going to say this, you do know the whole point of ranks as they are now, are to "stroke your ego?" This has worked for how many years now? I'm pretty sure it's still working as well. I made it to Don on my first account ever. How many people can say that? Not many, rank, believe it or not, still does have some meaning in the game other than stroking your ego. It shows that you've put in the time and effort to reach that rank. Everyone keeps saying that rank doesn't mean anything. Well, to me, even the fact that you've put in the effort jailbreaking or whatever you do to get the experience required, shows that the rank means something. Have you guys ever tried making it to 45 units? It's fucking tough. The way it should be. That's how ranks are meant to be used in THIS game. They aren't meant to be actual positions. It's just a way of saying I've put in the effort. You're rewarded by unlocking more felonies and OC. Other than that you're not supposed to have anything else along with it. 

And now I understand a little more James, I do, like I said, like the way you brought this up and everything, but I do not like the idea. It is well thought out and all. I just don't think it would work here in this game with the current group of people. If someone started a game new and had it, it might work. But as far as here with these people, where everyone is used to the current way that it has been for a decade, I don't believe it would really do anything for the game. It would be a HUGE change just shortly after having a huge change. It also isn't going to offer anything extra to the game, it would in fact change the game in it's entirety really. I just don't see how it would really benefit to change the game any more than it already has and is going to.