I'd estimate that 90% of us have some sort of goal(s) we would like to achieve in our lives, for some it could be running their own family, others to be the ultimate hitsquads, others still, absolute power. Even I have goals that I would like to achieve.

At what point do you think your patience would be tested? How long is it until you finally lose control and snap. It could be a simple exchange in the coffee shop, in the streets... even something as small as the quotes we so famously carry around.

When do you start considering your own legacy? When has your unquestionable loyalty been stretched as far as it can go? Which time is the last time you're passed over for promotion?

For me, only time can tell really... we're into the realms of the unknown as far as my bloodline in concerned. We've never lived/been allowed to live this long so I'm unsure exactly where my line in the sand is. I'll probably just end up dying in a war like the majority of us, but my fate hasn't quite been written yet.

Everybody builds a legacy whether it be in a family, or by leading one of their own.

The point you make is an excellent one, but every has their own legacy, the only thing that differs is how many others will recognise and remember your legacy after your death.

Personally, I have a legacy to myself and a few others. However, in comparison to the likes of the legendary Deimne or the legacy that DeadlySin and the other Godfathers are building, my legacy looks weak but it is still there and it will be valued by some, disregarded by others.

From the way some people walk around these shores you would think they don't want to leave behind memories of themselves... almost as if they're not exactly proud they haven't 'been all they could be'.

There are all types of memorable personality's from the past, some for their aggression, some for their iron-fist, some for their soapbox abilities, some for their gun capabilities... I could go on and on. There is a massive array of roles people here could play within their families and this world, but they choose not to. They don't want a legacy.

Most people are content going through the motions and not making waves. They come to these shores for a break from the other world. The real wave makes, or people who leave legacys are the people who want to see change occur, the guys or girls who grab someone by the short and curlies and put them six feet under. They want the glory, and they go about achieving it. Will I end up leaving a legacy, time will only tell. I think my family will remember me, prehaps my fellow crew leaders. In my time, I havent done anything memorable, so I doubt they will. Hopefully Ill change that before my time is up

In my personal opinion...here we go again...

I can't see how building a huge family and living in silence for years is something that can be considered building a Legacy. In my head the word legacy is linked to the word legend.

Will you be remembered in 10years for building a safe haven of no opinon and friendly pickpocketing?

Will you even be remembered in 10years if you had 300 kills that only 5 people knew about?

To me the people who I remember best and consider to have built a Legacy or Legend if you like are the people who made you laugh, cry, shout, scream and sacrifice your life. They don't have to be remembered for making Don or GF, just someone who can bring the emotional side of us out. Probably my bloodlines all time favourite leader was TheIncredibleDrunk, he went a little funny in the head the old dear but we laughed with him, cried with him, we built something that was known all over the streets and in the mouths of every mobster in the land. In contrast my family still talk about the name Nick_Corleone...this bloodline did very little in our world, but through clever use of our streets and a certain 'I need to punch him' effect he had on people here we are 10years later saying that name.

My own personal Legacy will be giving all you 'proper street men' a good kick up the arse.

I have to disagree with the premise that a legacy must be full of legendary achievements or notoriety in order for it to be meaningful. A legacy is what is passed down to us from our ancestors or what we pass down to our next of kin, nothing more nothing less.

If someone is happy for their legacy to be build around loyalty, respect, honour and a willingness to carry out selfless acts for the good of their family, are you really trying to suggest that this is meaningless? It might not be the hopes and aspirations of all, but for those that value it I do agree that it's a noble goal and something they can and should be proud of.

Will such acts be remembered by all and echoed down through eternity? No, obviously not. Will such acts be greatly remembered by the ones that were close to the person and whose opinion they actually give a shit about? Yes, that's the important bit.

Some people will have aspirations of fame, glory, success, taking the world by the balls and shaking it up. Others simply couldn't care less what you or anyone other than their closest family think. Does that make them wrong? No. It just makes them different, with different hopes and aspirations.

You're supposed to reply to Countdown too, not just me. ;-)

*Watches for a moment, as the world slowly revolves around CarraigRealta*

Ohhhh, don't worry. The comments were squarely aimed at our friend Countdown. You just happened to have mistakenly agreed with him on a few points before I made them ;)

In relation to your reply though, of course to everyone a Legacy can be a different thing. However, everyone wants to be famous. Everyone wants that respect and to me that doesn't come with a family tradition of being the best in Family at 'Yes Sir, No sir, three bags full Sir' and when that family leader dies continuing the tradition in the first family to come along with an invite.

I've known takedowns to take place and high rank people scramble to join the killers of said Family as to preserve their rank and life. The good crewleaders of course invited them and used them for target practice but thats another story.

So I guess I've convinced myself to agree that everyone can have a Legacy, its just some will view their Legacy as one of always being there paying tribute to any leader who would invite them, never breaking crew rules and never questioning their leader. From the outside lookingin however that same Legacy can be portrayed by others and being a life preserving, spineless, opinionless cash machine.

I'll disagree with "everyone wants to be famous". Some of the most loyal bloodlines I've ever known, including some of the most honourable, have avoided this at all costs. From declining auths to doing everything in their power to remain in the shadows while still being a vital cog in the wheel of whatever organisation they were a part of. They may very well be viewed as "life preserving, spineless, opinionless, cash machines" from someone on the outside looking in, but that wouldn't change my view of them in the slightest or cause them a single moment of concern.

If your single aim in life is based around what strangers and people who don't value you or care about you think, I have to suggest re-evaluating your goals.

As for the rest, we are in complete agreement. The idea of trying to preserve ones own life ahead of dying in honour, for a family you swore a blood oath to, is abhorrent to me. I have pledged myself to Don Tetley's family. In time, if and when I have proven myself worthy of the position, I hope and aspire to make a blood oath to that effect. Once that has happened, nothing short of a direct order from the man himself would cause or allow me to betray that oath. My life is protected by this family and it is wrapped up in this family, giving my life in service of this family would be a moment I'd hope my kin would respect and honour. There's nothing else that would be acceptable.

I too have to disagree with the idea that everyone wants to be famous. Most people I have met don't really want to be famous. They just want to be remembered. Of course, everyone has a different perspective on what they want to be remembered for and who they want to remember them. Personally, I would gladly lay down my life for the betterment of my Family and beyond assisting the growth of the Lights out Syndicate possibly dying to protect my Crew Leader or my Godfather, I really have no more personal goals at the moment. Maybe it will change as time goes on, maybe not.

Also, moving onto the statement made by Satanta. I personally have not come across many bloodlines who choose to stay in the shadows and not take a chance given to them to go bold but the ones that I have met usually have done it all at least once before. They normally come from a bloodline that has 'been there, done that'. So, yes, not everyone wants to go for glory but everyone wants the taste of it, at least ones. Maybe some people are content with being players behind the curtains but I have to agree with Caraig that everybody, deep down, has a need to be seen and recognized as a 'notorious' person, at least once in the history of their bloodline.

As for high-ranked members of Families surviving a take down by accepting invites from someone else. I disagree wholly with it. Mine has been a bloodline that takes it's oaths very seriously but just to play devils advocate, you have to admit, quite a few of them go very very far.For instance, look at history. Roman, probably one of the most powerful men to ever walk this world was a Don in the Family of Godfather Deimne and when Deimne was killed, he switched over to the other side and look where it got him. To be honest, you needn't look that far into the past to see people who have survived the destruction of their Families and are still walking around as respected members of this society.

"I have to disagree with the premise that a legacy must be full of legendary achievements or notoriety in order for it to be meaningful."

No, it doesn't Satanta... but they should still be aiming for that should they not?

Because of the traits passed down from kin to kin, people are expected to act and speak in a certain way. A few try to break the mould, even less succeed. Because of the tight-knit community we have it's a shock when a member of a bloodline does something different. Take Kuku- as an example... no matter what he is doing now or does in the future, people are expecting him to go off the rails... I'll admit I'm one of these people (Lord, let him prove us wrong). If he dies in the next war, people will expect his son to come back with those loose lips he's so infamous for. If he dies and his son doesn't do this I would regard that as a meaningful achievement. I have lived for far longer than any of my ancestors could have dreamed of and I view this as a meaningful achievement.

These achievements will be meaningless to a lot of people here, but not for me. There's a lot of folk around these shores with the work ethic of an overweight baby hippo and still sit back and make smart arse comments about others attempting to do/be something different.

I'm not sure why one of the more active members of our community would make excuses for people who don't even bother to do the small things right, like stay out of other people's business. Some just do not try to do anything... ever.

Totally agree that everyone does NOT want to be famous. Some people are very good at not being famous but being very powerful and those are the types I admire. I and a lot of others have their own way of doing things in this world and those people have their way. Both get the job done, both are totally opposite ends of the scale. Although there was a time when it was very helpful to be 'famous' but that time has long since passed and now there's a healthy balance of the two.

"I have to disagree with the premise that a legacy must be full of legendary achievements or notoriety in order for it to be meaningful."

No, it doesn't Satanta... but they should still be aiming for that should they not?

I honestly don't understand this, Countdown. Do you believe that everyone should be aspiring for legendary achievements and notoriety? Well, I think those achievements are just one path to go on to render a meaningful contribution to this society. Well, if someone feels that getting out of bed and walking to the Post Office and robbing it is a 'legendary' achievement, who are we to question it? If He/She feels that being stuck in a rut and working what is basically an eight-five job as a glorified accountant with a gun, that's just less competition for those who actually wish to make a difference.

The term achievement could define different things for different people. As you so astutely pointed out, you considered that it was a very meaningful achievement that you have lived much longer than the TeQs of the past. Now, this would not seem an achievement to someone else. So, if doing 'nothing' is someone's definition of an achievement, meh why knock it?

Yes, everyone should aspire to legendary achievements Elijah. I understand that very few will actually achieve it, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to it.

There are other achievements that I wouldn't care to share in public Elijah that others would also consider an achievement. This is why I knock it. ;)

Gent listened to countdown speach and has a few thoughts to share about this subject...

"How much time before i... "snap?" you might ask? Well... in our way of life, i dont believe we can really allow ourselves to "snap". Patience has always been the one and only key to true success. Yeah, we try to out-come ourselves on a daily baisis in hopes that our boss's will eventually recognised our work and consider us in futur plans. But... even if we think we are unnoticed for our deads it is far from the truth. We need to be constant in our work, always set the bar high everyday. If you are'nt willing to do so than i would suggest not to expect anything from anyone. Of course, this is my line of thinking... does'nt mean it reflects everyones. But... if i really want something, i will work at it and eventually gain it. Because that is what is in my blood. And i will be patient, because there is a time and a place for everything!"

*waits until The_Gent has finished*

You go get them kid!

Anyways...

Some people will never step out of the background without provocation or without a push. Your bloodline itself Countdown was responsible for dragging a background hitter out of the shadows again. A shady little quiet chap with his little gang of pals were taken out of the shadows first to assist your ancestors family then to stand alongside them on their own. And we both know what kind of monster that created...

Sometimes people need that kick up the arse to unleash the potential they hide. And to be honest I can't think of many former great Families that shunned the spotlight, fame and notoriety that goes with becoming legendary in these cities.

Gent listens to CarraigRealta reply, noticing his eagerness while himself was speaking his mind on countdown's speach!

"CarraigRealta... yes, some people do need that small push to open up their wings and shine. But what happens after that? Will they keep on shinning or just fade out unless somebody else pushes them again? What kind of leaders do they make? Well... different strokes for different folks. Oh... and from that uh... "Go get em kid remark?". What does that mean? If i have made the impression that i was waiting for something to happen for myself i will clearify. I am not here to try to convince anyone of anything, just in case anyone might think something of the sort. I just came out and spoke my mind in general. I believe any bloodline should show their true colors with each generation.

If one does want to use his/her "legendary" ancestors past to continu on building what has been earned in the past. Yes... if we look back in time we will find people that can be known as "Legendary". I am not here to brag but... i truely believe that some of Lady-Fighter's own ancestors has done lengendary things. I remember reading in dairies about one that held up fort in New Orleans for quite some time during a big war and she was the last one standing in that city.

I am quite happy and honored to be in Lady-Fighter's crew today. And i know i am not the only one who thinks such things of her. Legends do exists, and well... i certainly am far from it and so was any of my ancestors. But i do know how to recognise them. It would be a damn shame if i could'nt.

As i also said... it is important to be constant if you want to be recognised. I am not very contant in my work lately. Well, i put up the work i can when i can... and of course, i really dont expect anything for myself. But Lady-Fighter will always have me by her side for my respect for her runs deep. Countdown has brought a very interesting subject, i am curious to what others may have to say!"

The Go get em kid remark is simply what you should do with your method of building a legacy...you Go get em kid!

Just to quote this and i dont believe you've listen to my full comment...

(quote) 'The Go get em kid remark is simply what you should do with your method of building a legacy...you Go get em kid!'

If i am the one you are really referring to, a highly respected button man of the philly organisation, there is no one that i want to get!

I believe i have already reached my goals a very very long time ago. In fact, probably when i actualy WAS a kid. I am currently working along Lady-Fighter's side, which has always been my one and only true goal. And hard work and dedication has earned me this. And i can say the same for each and every one of my ancestors, goals they set up for themselves has been reached.

My methods, the ones that has been writen by the very first of my ancestors in my bloodlines diaries, has always worked to my greatest satisfaction. Also the reason for my sharing here with the ones that actualy are willing to listen.

Don't get me wrong, your contribution is most valuable. After all you are living walking proof that my opinion of legacy is wrong...but that is my opinion of legacy and I'll bet a penny to a pound that my grandkids won't be sitting around reminiscing about the effects and legend of that legacy many years from now.