Ladies and gentlemen, since the May war that saw the fall of Philadelphia under DeadlySin, New York under Phil_Steak, Detroit under SpaceCowboy and the decimation of much of Chicago, our shores have seen two wars, take downs, whatever you'd like to call them. For those who have perhaps been absent from our shores for parts of the last few weeks, the first was the removal of Creep from Detroit and the second, last nights removal of Lex_Luthor and VeronicaCorningstone from Queens, NY. 

After the first of these take downs, that of Creep from Detroit, Philalpdehia and to an extent Chicago came under criticism for making it a complete massacre, for spilling the blood of anybody with a Detroit tag. I can see both sides of killing everybody. Killing everybody, on the one hand, prevents the younger members of the city from continuing the war, so to speak, as they grow up, from gaining further strength as they become accepted into other families of this thing of ours, and harming the cities who made the original decision to take down their old city. On the other hand, it can also be argued that by killing everybody, innocent people with no part in the decision, not even Made in their crews, were taken, and this could chase bloodlines, particularly newer ones, from these shores. 

Criticism of that decision came both from those who's parents had been Made and above, and those who's parents were associates; some of the criticism did raise the occasional valid point, some was utterly laughable.

But perhaps some of it was taken on board when last nights take down of Queens, NY occurred. As has been explicitly stated by Mr Tarantino in the streets, wiseguys and below from the crews removed are to be protected, are to be given a chance at a new life. Certainly, this is an admirable decision in some ways, however it seems some are still unhappy that their Made parents met their ends when they perhaps had no awareness of any of the troubles that lead up to the war. 

I'm well aware that much of the decision on who to kill in a take down is circumstantial. If you're acting within your own city for example, it might be that a majority of the members of a crew had no knowledge of any kind of treachery and you feel that you can save them and give them another chance. There's a lot of different scenario's, but, what I'm asking, is can anyone reasonably expect, as a Made Man or above, to NOT die when their boss does? Can their children legitimately complain about the fact that their parents died, when they were a trusted member of an organization? Complain about the reasoning of a war, if you must, but to me, complaining about the fact that you died with the Crew Leader who took you in and then trusted you enough to make you a Made man in their family seems absolutely disloyal. The fact that people comes across, at least to me, as being easy to throw all loyalty aside; what is this way of life with no loyalty?

I would have to agree if you are a Made man you should expect to die during something like this. Once your a made man you are part of the family and at that point it is live as a family and die as a family. You have support your family 100% and that even means being killed. It is your choice to pick which family you join and you must trust your CL to do the right thing. 

I am rather torn on this..... On one hand, there is that entire classical, nostalgic and rather romantic sense of the mafia where everyone above Made is an unquestioning soldier who is totally loyal and would gladly go their graves for their leader and on the other hand is the actual reality of this world of ours...

Firstly, yes. Theoretically speaking, everyone at or above the rank of a Made Man should be killed during a war. However, in practicality, we see different and rather weird things occur. This is because actual life is not black and white. It's just shades of grey.

In certain cases, children of Made Men and Women can feel like their parents did not deserve to die at the hands of the attackers. While they would not be justified, I can understand their reasoning. 

Secondly, the entire rank of a 'Made Man' has been diluted to an extreme degree. Sometimes, I wonder if it even means something. Yes, I know I am yet to receive my button but I believe( maybe a bit proudly?) that my blood has been around for long enough for me to make that statement. Anyway, as I said, Wise Guys are seemingly 'auto-promod' en masse these days, at least in my opinion. This means, that to quite a few of us, this rank means nothing special. It's just another rank. Just like being a Wise Guy.

This serves as the starting point for many people to think their parents were wronged. They do not seem to grasp one of the fundamental tenets of La Cosa Nostra that once you're Made in a Family, you either live or die there and I think this is because they do not need to work for it. Of course, quite a few of you will argue that holding people back at Wise Guy will lead to disgruntlement and the abandoning of this world by newer bloodlines....well.. that'll get me started on the whole 'hand-holding' epidemic that has struck our great cities but I do not wish to bore you all. So, I'll stop here.

Okay, so Made Man doesn't take as much work as perhaps it once did - I'm not sure how true a statement that is, being a newer bloodline around here, but even so.. it's the first rank you have to impress for, it's the first rank where you actually have to be chosen for it by your crew leader, it's the first rank where you have to do something more than just rack up units. Even if it's been diluted, it should still mean something.

If it DOESN'T still mean something, perhaps that's another issue to be discussed entirely.

I do agree that shades of grey occur, but surely even then.. you've joined a crewleader, you are then under their protection while you work for them and by way of return for that, they endevour to protect you. When that protection that you have joined and enjoyed fails, what right have you to sail on to the next willing crew? Sometimes circumstances do allow people to do this as Made Men, but realistically, what right do you have? 

If you don't agree with a take down or war, then sure, come out and debate the reasons. But to say "My father/mother was a Made Man and they should've lived" sounds crazy.

Oh, it still means something. That's for sure. I'm just saying it used to mean a lot more. You actually needed to work a lot more. I know that the Family I am a part of, currently, values a button quite highly and maybe quite a few of the leaders still adhere to that way of selecting their button men, I honestly don't know. From where I am standing, it doesn't seem to mean as much as it did. I know of a friend who got her button in a crew, quite recently. Her only correspondence to her leader was along the lines of 'Hey, Can I get an invite?' and 'Thanks for the invite'. She just pulled in a lot of money and viola! Made Woman.... A few months ago one of my ancestors did pretty much the same thing. Just a couple of examples but I am sure more can be found.

Yes, it means something but it is getting diluted at an alarming rate. Meh. Maybe we should do something about. Maybe not. Who am I to decide? 

I do agree that shades of grey occur, but surely even then.. you've joined a crewleader, you are then under their protection while you work for them and by way of return for that, they endevour to protect you. When that protection that you have joined and enjoyed fails, what right have you to sail on to the next willing crew? Sometimes circumstances do allow people to do this as Made Men, but realistically, what right do you have? 

 I seem to employ too many examples when I speak but meh here is another one... lets assume you're a crew leader(which you already are) and I am a fresh-off-the boat thug and the first of my bloodline. I am approached by your Right Hand Man or your Left Hand Man or hell just one of your sponsors. I am told of a large amount of money to be made, bitches to be fucked, drugs to be run, businesses to be visited and most importantly taxes to be paid for protection. I am entranced and so I join your criminal outfit. I am taught how to make money. I have a knack for it, partly because my other worldly duties are almost non existent. I pay my taxes and kick up a million every other day. On the 11th day of my existence here, I just notice that I now wear a button, pinned onto me in my sleep. I go about my business as usual. Next day, I am shot in the face. My son comes out here, sees another crew leader on the Streets announcing that you were killed for some reason or the other. Now, keep in mind that I have had 0 personal contact with you, whatsoever.

So in my son's mind.... his father died because someone he never talked to did something wrong. That should, in his mind at least, give him enough of a 'right' to come and bitch about his fathers death. He would wholeheartedly believe that our family line was wronged and would complain.

This is but an extreme case but I hope it is sufficient to make my point as to why certain people felt they had a 'right' to live on after their Boss was killed.

I am a firm believer that ever Leader should try to do things 'their own way' and rule their own crew, and to the full extent of their ability, the community around them in a way which reflects their principles. Any Leader who does not try to do something differently or create a legacy shouldn't have the suit in my opinion; but this is a different story.

Regardless of How a leader 'tends to their flock', though, there are naturally a few things - a few caveats to our way of life - that should be non negotiable. Kicking upstairs, the illegality of random killings of associates, these sorts of things are fundamental to our way of life and business would collapse without them. Another custom from the old country (i.e. The real Mafia) that isn't always stringently observed but absolutely should be is the sanctity of Made Man.

It should be valued above all other promotions; it is so much more than Capo, Boss, Consigliere - whatever. They are just rungs on a ladder, becoming a made guy is a rebirth - it is the first day of your life with a new Family. It is everything. Giving the button symbolises many things, but on our shores it most of all symbolises trust. It is a Leader saying 'I trust you with our legacy, I trust you to carry the family name and to conduct yourself in a manner befitting of your stature and, more palpably, I trust you to be loyal - to not go against the family, to buy out and set up a HQ'. This is something thrown into sharp relief with recent events for both reasons. It is not the easy thing to say, nor the thing people will want to hear, but the Leaders must take their share when accountability is meted out for the idiotic actions of Lady Aliena or -Lefty-; the  ultimate responsibility remains with the fool with the smoking pistol but these people never should have been given the honour.

Leaders don't have crystal balls, though. I know it's almost impossible to predict a rogue. I'm not pointing the Spanish Inquisition at anybody and demanding some kind of arbitrary retribution, it would just be remiss of anyone to look at these situations and not point out the obvious. Conversely, though, can the offspring anybody from Queens, Testarossa or Zmeika have a legitimate complaint at their forebears' deaths? Yes and No. Those from Queens can have no complaint, there was a war and it was a justified war. The situation with Testarossa and Zmeika is very different, though. they were not justified killings, anything but. The only way a made guy should die is during a war or following a sitdown; these tragic deaths were neither and I think the daughters have every right to feel aggrieved at the manner of their mothers' passing.

What the two vastly different scenarios have in common is acceptance. Whether it's a justified death given 'the nod' by someone higher up or not, death as a made man is something you're going to have to accept. Ultimately, I am aware and fully prepared for the fact that I will most likely die either for my family or because of who my family is. However, it's a two way street. As a made guy, I'm worth more than an associate and I do expect that to show in how I'm treated both in the community and by my leader.

I have always viewed this one way, if you accept an invite to a family you are loyal until death. No matter what rank. That is how my bloodline is, that is how my bloodline always has been and always will be. If you attack a family I am in, I will retaliate no matter my rank, so you are best to kill. If I wake up and the whole family is dead except wiseguy and below and my bloodline fits that criteria, I will retaliate still. I feel from the second I join the family loyalty until death starts there. Just how I am.

With that being said I also feel that others are a threat for the same reason. In my opinion if you war a crew then you should consider the whole crew to be a threat. I feel that there is no "one" in family. there is a whole and when you initiate a war then you war the whole and there is no innocent. The word innocent is not in the vocabulary. If you want to be innocent don't join a life of crime, it's that simple to me.

So this concept of people complaining they should not have died when war has taken out their family confusing me. Complain about the reasons, sure what ever, but never that you died for your family and you were only an "innocent" Goomba. You accepted the offer to join and you should keep that loyalty through the good and bad until you die with that family. Just my opinion.

I was going to respond.. but Subtle said it for me.

I also agree with what subtle said. If you join up you join to the death doesn't matter your rank. 

I agree rank has lost its meaning but when crews have RHM of real low ranks it seems ranking up doesnt mean much.  It has to be hard to want to be made in a family knowing that you may never attain a prestigeous spot in the crew because of the monarchy.

I disagree that if you join at any rank you join for life for two reasons.

First of all, the very nature of how things are structured (for the most part) show that unmade members have no direct contact with the Leader; they are sponsored by a third party. To me 'associates' are hired help, they are earners who are primarily in it for themselves but kick upstairs out of respect for the Boss' power and ownership over the territory they work in. If they do go above and beyond what is expected of them as an associate, whether it be in a time of war or just a general display of exceptional loyalty then fantastic, they have shown they are worth of becoming a button man.

Secondly, if we come to expect the same unwavering standards of conduct, loyalty and service from associates as we do for the high rankers; what is the point of made man? The honour and prestige of the button is further diminished. I take pride in being on of Ziva's made guys because I know it means she expects more of me than she did when I was a two-bit wise guy. That distinction is something I'm proud of; if she would expect the same as a gangster who's just joined the family as she would from a long time member who has served for long period of time and has climbed the ladder accordingly, then rank becomes meaningless.

I'm going to agree with what Cantona says here; there's room for leeway as far as associates go. As he quite rightly said, at least from me, the expectations from associates are lower than that of a Made Man. It might be that in some cases, the best way forward in a war does involve taking out associates; for instances, to stop them taking shots to protect Made members of their crew who may be taking shots at your own crew.

I do understand though, associates feeling aggrieved when they die. I expect my associates to be loyal to me, in that I expect them to not betray what parts of the family they have been allowed in on, but I know if my crew was attacked and myself and my Made Men were to die, my daughter would be delighted to see my associates go on to make something of themselves in this world. 

I would like to pick up on the point Sins has made, however. It seems like there has been somewhat an obsession on these streets lately about low-ranked Right Hands. an argument which very much has two sides to it, two sides which both make perfectly valid points.

Take for instance, the recent death by rogue of Testarossa. A tradegy, I'm sure we can all agree, a woman going about her business being shot in cold blood. Her daughter has taken on the position held by her within Cpt-Harris' crew, and I'm sure she will do just as good a job as her mother did there, considering she was brought up with this contingency in mind, as our children sometimes have to be.

To some within that crew, I agree that it must seem horribly unfair in some ways, that someone can die, and still have their 5 unit, gangster character be viewed as more valuable to their crew leader, but I'd personally prefer to argue that trust, which often passes on from mother to daughter, from father to son, is a much more valuable commodity than rank or units. 

It takes trust to allow somebody to become a Made Man in your crew, but it takes more trust to allow somebody access to your mail, to all the information about your crew, to, basically, everything that you do. It doesn't personally matter to me whether I place that trust in a Capo or in a Gangster, I won't allow rank to dictate to me who I should trust to take on that role.

I don't want to get into the whole low ranking rights debate because in all honesty, I find it cyclical and rather dull. However, there's quick thing I'd like to pick up on from Sins' comment; maybe I'm misinterpreting or maybe I'm just to old school, but this, to me is fucking outrageous:

it seems ranking up doesnt mean much.  It has to be hard to want to be made in a family knowing that you may never attain a prestigeous spot in the crew

If I was a leader and one of my associates came out with this garbage; they would effectively forefit their chances of ever being granted the honour of receiving their button. First of all, becoming made is not merely a stepping stone to something further - it is much more, it is the moment you have 'arrived'. Secondly, the fact that you don't understand that made man is a prestigious spot should preclude you from becoming one, in my opinion. If you can't comprehend the honour and importance of the rank, and thus the responsibilities and duties that go along with it, then you don't deserve to hold that rank in the first place.
 

I don't think he was implying that the rank of Made Man is not prestigious Cantona. I think he was more trying to highlight the fact that often you would assume that as you progress through the ranks this is met with more responsibility as you obviously feel your crew leader trusts you enough to promote you to the next rank.

However when an opening in say the upper structure becomes available you are passed over for a "lowly gangster" it makes you question whether your crew leader ever truly values you at say your rank of Don when he chooses a gangster or other non made person to be a hand ahead of you. Obviously this crosses back into the should you, shouldn't you have low ranking members as hands which i don't want to gate crash this debate with.   

Thank you blink that is exactly what i was saying. Im glad to be in the crew I am in and have much respect for Alucard and anyone made in this family. I know they all worked hard to get to where they are at and I can only hope to follow in their footsteps and earn my was as well.