Hello, friends. I am hoping to spark a stimulating debate with some disagreement, discussion and generally interesting viewpoints.  Sadly, given the nature of the topic at hand, I fear it will devolve into an endless procession of people standing in a queue saying 'is this the party line? Excellent, I'd sure like to toe this motherfucker', followed by repeatedly shouting catchphrases and soundbites designed to please their Leaders. Still, I can try, eh?

The topic du jour is the recent spate of retirements. The more eagle eyed among you will notice a disproportionately high number of these retirements and suicides come from Staten Island, this whilst relatively amusing, is not the the reason for my speech (though will soon by addressed in the next Bloody Tissue release if and when my co-editor gets his arse in gear). No, my reason for this speech is that three of the most recent suicides/requested deaths have been, for lack of a better term, politically motivated.

To get the idiot wheel rolling, we had the death of a Capo from my own family; Alphonse_Indelicato. At least I think that was his name, in all my time of calling The Loop home he never had the time to speak to me once, even on the occasions where I sent him a friendly mail. Relatively ironic given that his greatest criticism of our thing was how it was isolationist and elitist. Nevermind, though, I'm not here to discuss his motives.

Next up, Thanatos. With a position of Don in a GF Crew that most of us would kill and/or seriously maim for, Thanatos declared that he didn't 'give a fuck anymore' and shuffled off his mortal coil. Shame. If I was one for speculation I would say that people's frequent mentions of his great ideas, promise and ambition in his funeral, along with the timing of his death just shortly after Luciano took the Godfather position are more than coincidental. I'd speculate that he was upset that his abundant and obvious talent wasn't rewarded with some sort of official position after Mr. Luciano's ascension, and he responded with the only way he knew how; but again, this isn't really about his motives.

Lastly we have Donnie. From the mouth of the man himself in the coffeeshops, he planned his suicide simply because he did not want to help out New York with their war against Meyer Lanksy. I have a few choice things to say about this but, again, it's not really about the motives.

What it's about is that these three men each believed in something so much (or didn't believe in something enough) that they were happy to die for it. Does make these men principled? Brave? Martyrs? Hardly, it makes them cowards.

Compare this to -lefty-, who shot testarossa and Simply_Zmeika. Unfortunately, this comparison isn't ideal as at the time -lefty- neglected to reveal the motives for his rogue attempt and it was only recently that Alphonse died and we learned the reasoning behind his attack, that he was fed up with what he perceived to be a 'closed shop' in terms of his advancement. To that tend, his rogue attempt was pretty successful inasmuch as that his victims were a newly authed leader and the number 2 of arguably the most influential man in our thing. Were his motives just? In my opinion no, but it wasn't me pulling the trigger. Nevertheless, I would put forward that he is not any more cowardly, nor any less principled than these men who retired. They may have seen different ends, but  the keyword here is intent.

In our thing, a rogue has always been someone who, against their own family, embarks on a destructive shooting spree, often after buying a HQ. Look to the origin of the word and you'll find this "An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person". This is a definition that could quite legitimately be applied to a suicide or a retiring mobster for blindingly obvious reasons.

Ultimately, the point I am driving at is that there is no great difference between he who retires and he who rogues. The effect of a rogue, for bad or good depending on your viewpoint, may be greater; but the cause is no different. They are 2 different journeys, but with the same beginning and end. Look beyond the justifications here because 99 times out of 100 they are bullshit. Look not for the why, but for the how.

The 'rogues are bad' line is such a flogged horse that there will be the stamping of feet and tearful remonstrations over the fact that the overall tone of this speech is not 'ROGUES ARE TERRIBLE', but do not misunderstand me. I am not trying to say 'rogues are good', nor am I trying to insinuate that every suicide or retirement happens for the same reason. What I am trying to say is that the politically-motivated suicides are, at their root, no different from rogues; and it is relatively surprising that one is treated with all-encompassing damnation whilst the other receives pity, regret and faint praise. Relatively surprising indeed.

I personally think that suicide is much worst than going rogue. If you suicide then u leave your family and just exit the game you don't have to do anything just hit the suicide button and poof your dead... many do it for the same reason you speculated that Thanatos did it. They were overlooked for a position when they felt they should have moved up.

While going rouge as Lefty did he murdered people out of rage. This is not a cowardly act but in fact a selfish one. His reason is because as Cantona pointed out "that he was fed up with what he perceived to be a 'closed shop' in terms of his advancement." Many share his point of view. I will not weigh in on this topic as for I don't want to tick anyone off. But, I agree he accomplished his "mission" by murdering a newly authed crew leader, who knows that person may have not been in the "inner circle" as i've heard to refereed to and he was killing someone who may have had their first attempt at being a CL.

None the less I believe suicide is wrong if you want out go to your HSL and ask to be killed it is a much more respectable way of going out. While going wrong you start killing random people, or planned targets, but your just going alone killing people. If there was a group it would be called a war. I believe rouges keep the game in balance as does war.

I gotta admit cantona, I disagree with your opinion on this. I would claim state that to go rogue, as bad as that is, is not as bad as to suicide. A rogue, is someone who decides that they do not like something about how thing are run. In that respect, a rogue and a political suicide are effectively identical. 

The difference, to me, lies in the action taken, and the implications thereof. A suicide, is someone without any serious drive, who doesn't like the way things are going, and doesn't have the balls to do something about it. instead, they kill themselves, mistakenly thinking that there act of whiney cowardice will cause people to think about why the suicide committed their act of whiney cowardice, and change the things the suicide didn't like. Nothing could be father from the truth, as political suicides are ridiculed for deciding to simple bail out.

Now, a disclaimer. In no way whatsoever! do I condone Going rogue. Now, that said, I respect a rogue in a way I will never NEVER respect a suicide of any persuasion. A rogue, in my mind, is someone who does not like the way thing are, for one reason of another. But unlike a suicide, A rogue is someone who followed an underlying principle of this thing of ours. I can't count the number of times that I have heard someone complain, and someone else replies "If you have an issue, rank up and fix it". A rogue, is attempting to do just that. His methods may be wrong, but if you perceive, as Alphonse did, that there is a glass ceiling of rank and position, then to that mind, there is no other way. As a direct result, It would be true to stay that rogues are a symptom of the culture of Mafia returns, and always have been.

In conclusion, Don't rogue or be  a bitchy suicide. But if you have to, roguing is a more honorable option the suiciding.

rubbing his chin as he sits against a crate, he sighs deeply. 

Both these are often a curse on our world, some people have little patience, others don't realise what they are getting into when they join a city or family.  The fact sometimes people feel pressured for the safety to join the first crew they can form part of the problem.

The truth of the matter is i fear a rogue more than a suicide victim due to the damage they can do to my own family and others, or the further implications for my family as have seen cities fall for irresponsible actions of others, however successful or unsuccessful.

I will be honest i find a regular spate of suicides never amusing, as i see potential maybe being lost for our society as we often come with some unique prospectives and with experience from other types of work.   The truth is adaptability seems to be the key in society and trying to avoid boredom or what to do with wealth generated by a person is easy to make a selfish decision or say this crew is not for me and i dont want to feed it cash.

I think suicides have been one of them things that just happen, when premier commited suicide rather than work with Phil Steak was a big marker on how unhappy people can be within a crew, and how the crewleader should motivate, stimulate, teach and give confidence to members; something that my family has noticed does not always happen in families so is hard and dissapointing especially to new blood on these shores who find the tasks they do repetitive and boring.

IShippedMyPants; I'd agree with you that ultimately even the most explosive rogues tend to have a similar effect as a relatively small droplet in a rather big pond with ripples that are small enough to ignore and quick enough to disappear. To that end, almost all rogues are ultimately successul (unless their sole aim is to deal out as much destruction as possible) because any underlying political motive they have, if any, is swallowed by the general rhetoric - which is one of anger and impotent justice as we mourn friends who didn't deserve to die.

Phillie_stein, it's possible you've misunderstood me;we're on the same page. As I mentioned in my original speech, I see no great difference between a political suicide and a rogue - as you mention yourself they are effectively the same thing. I agree with you though, and again this echoes ISMP's comments, that they are both ultimately futile. Whilst killing yourself or roguing may draw public attention to what you perceive to be an injustice; your own 'martyrdom' is not going to bring about the change you so crave. Even were a rogue to kill a Leader (something I am 100% not condoning!) they would still end up dead themselves, and in no position to do anything to set further change in motion.

The old adage of 'ranking up and fixing it' is ultimately a much better option. It may not seem as visibly successful, but it is like growing a tree - a long term process with change so gradual that you fail to notice it upon regular viewing; it's only when you take a step back that you appreciate the difference.

To echo what's already been said though, suicides really are the easy exist. A total cop out.

I hate to beat a dead sheep... but after finding this gem (yes, cantona, I am sucking up to you for some dumbass reason that I have already forgotten), I felt the need to point out that ANYTHING one does with ones life aside from doing nothing,  IS A STATEMENT OF INTENT and a STANCE on something.

(excuse the shouting, since I am hard of hearing, I need to shout to make sure that I can hear myself).

You can state your loyalty to your leader by throwing yourself in to a war and shooting up the wapazooies out of the opposing gang.  You can take an extended vacation and thus hope that you do not get killed and by doing so, you might state that you do not support your bosses war and hope to survive his latest folly.

On the flipside, you can state that you a free wheeln dealin spirt who lives to give the finger to the letter of the law, the rule of the crew and the mores of the street.  You can do this by going rogue and shooting at anything you can miss or hit.  You can do this by pickpocketing every last man jack-n-jill-a-lantern, despite any rules that the godpappa of the area set down.

And lastly, you can protest with your life.

You can choose to make a stance of support OR of decrying something by giving your life to a cause in which you firmly believe.

Dont agree?  I would say that history tends to agree as we can see how the mass suicide of the residents of Masada 2000 years ago are seen as hero's who would not bend and would not have their lifes be taken without some sort of fight.