Ladies and gentlemen, I come to you in the aftermath of probably the most devastating war that our shores have seen since the great war of May, which saw the end of New York under Phil_Steak, Philadelphia under DeadlySin, Detroit under SpaceCowboy, and the devastation of much of Chicago.

This war saw the involvement of every district in the game.. bar one. I'll run over the "sides" in this war once more, for the benefit of those who are still standing in the ruins muttering "what the fuck".

The attackers; West Side (Chicago), The Loop (Chicago), Suburbs (Chicago - joined after first wave), New York, Downtown (Detroit).

The defenders; Black Bottom (Detroit), Corktown (Detroit), South Side (Chicago), Philadelphia.

Now, the ins and outs of why that war was waged have already been explained here by Godfather Lynch. I'm not here to question those reasons. What I am here to ask you all, is this:

In your opinion, as someone who claims to be an ally, at what point do you step in and fight alongside your allies? At what point do you pick a side? Is there any honor in fence sitting?

I can think of a number of reasons why people may choose to sit on the fence, I truly can. It could be a tactical move; while other districts are fighting and growing weaker, the fence sitter remains intact, therefore their relative strength should increase. It could be the lack of ability to pick a side; sure when you have two districts from the same city fighting each other, is it not wiser to hedge your bets? Or is it more of a risk, when fence sitting may make you look disloyal to those remaining after, those who have fought and lost friends, godfathers, crew leaders?

It's a fine juggling act, I suppose. One also has to consider the possible consequences. Could one district joining in have prevented a tremendous loss to Chicago in that last war? Could enough of a difference have been made that Cpt-Harris, that Eddy, that SpaceCowboy, that JessePinkman, that Dipple, that Insomniac, that Hei, that ANY of those people or that any number of others could still be standing amongst us now? Could they have lessened the devastation?

And, well. As allies, as people who share a city.. should they have done?

As a matter of opinion, it'd be interesting to know what the consensus is on the possible impact of a single district in this type of scenario.

I think you need to start with defining ally.

It would seem like aggression is not part of the common goal, and that fighting against allies makes them not so.

If your allies are fighting your allies, who are your allies?

If your allies are the aggressor is you aggressing as well part of being an ally?

Ally is open to definition, my friend.

All I know, is that the people I would personally consider to be allies, are the people working for the best interests of my city, my district, my crew. And if I saw those people dying around me, I know I would want to step in.

And how do you determine which of the people working around you in your city that are now dying at each other's hands are the ones that you are going to break your alliance with sweetheart?

Because it seems like what feels right, but then where does your word stand?

In my opinion, there was such a strong attacking force that the addition of one extra crew would have made no difference. Now obviously that is debatable, and i understand what you are saying, but in the light of the recent war perhaps you have more pressing issues to find out like why did the defending teams get so many pro's before the takedown?

Sitting on the fence is sometimes best for the protection of your crew, if its not your fight, why fight it? Unfortunately for one un-involved crew leaders this was not the case as one of their members was shot in the confusion of who was attacking who. From what i hear he stepped in at this point, which was the right decision in my eyes.

Also you talk about city "allies"... Im pretty sure South Side were an ally of Chicago's, hell they were in Chicago and got killed by Chicago! So perhaps the term allies doesnt mean much to some people. Detroit and Philadelphia were also allies of Chicago, yet Chicago and New York planned the takedown. Perhaps allies are forged in the coffeeshops rather than on the streets.

What I know Topanga, is that according to South Side, they had no idea that they had lost control of Black Bottom and Corktown, that those districts, supposedly loyal to ChaosSpike, were going on a Philadelphia fighting mission a couple of days before. But, curiously, ChaosSpike didn't choose to teach his disloyal districts a lesson. That in itself surely is enough to make his word and the motives of him himself and of the Godfathers he authed into Detroit questionable.

With that in mind, I'm not entirely sure the other Godfathers of Chicago had a choice but to wipe them, honey.

Hatchet, again, I've mentioned my take on the alliances with South Side and those two Detroit districts. To me at least, the move into Philadelphia looked like a threatening power play against the rest of Chicago, in particular, West Side and their auth in Detroit, Anomaly.

Now, you are correct, it was certainly a strong attacking force..  but surely more guns and more pro-ers would've tipped the balance enough that certain guns could've been dead before certain deaths were allowed to occur? As for why they had so many pro shots before the attack.. I'm quite sure that answers may have been found on that, if not, it's not really something I personally am in a position to investigate.. but I'm quite sure the streets are an open forum for any of us to share comment or opinion, which is what I'm doing here.

On a personal level, my bloodline has lost a LOT of friends over the last couple of months, and some are gone forever. I'm sick of losing people, and seeing my people die when I feel it may have been preventable makes me sick to the stomach.

Its sad to see that this "power play" was seen as a threat, as from what i heard it was not. But if that was the general consensus from Chicago then i have to say it was the correct move to make by the attackers. Anyway this thread isn't a debate on the war so i will move on from that subject.

A couple more hitters and pros may very well have saved a life, and the life of one of your mafioso is worth 1000 of the enemy, so saving every one you can is the best thing a crew leader can do. When it comes to your allies, if they want to sit on the fence, if they have good reasoning, then thats fine. Just because your friend is jumping off the bridge why do you have to do it as well? If the plan looked too risky and the safer option was to sit on the fence for the protection of your members, fair play.

I think alot of us are sick of seeing people dying, but also at the same time, isnt dying what being a mafioso is about? Or is it really about who can have the longest life or who has the most money in the bank? Its about power, asserting that power, just like Chicago did with this last war. You loose friends in wars, but you also gain friends, the sons and daughters fly to these streets after a war, you new best friend may just be joining your crew today, and you dont know that yet. I guess im saying try and focus on the positives, every cloud has a sliver lining and all that.

It certainly looked that way, to these eyes and I know to at least some others.

As you say yourself, Mr Hatchet.. the life of one of your mafioso, is worth 1000 of the enemy. And again, as you say, more hitters and pro-ers may have saved lives. Sadly, this did not happen. But have these allies not now shot themselves in the foot? One has to presume that one day, they may be in a situation, they may need support.. and they have allowed, for whatever reasons, I'd love to hear them, for their support to be weakened, in some cases massively.

Dying is, indeed, a part of life for us, but it isn't just the dying, it's the number of people who's bloodlines never return, or cannot return, that is the sicken-er. A lot of great friends to my blood have left and never come back, and they are sorely missed. It cuts all the more, then, when those who still remain are also being taken. Every cloud has a silver lining, but this one also has, in my opinion, a larger pool of blood dripping from it than there could've been.

But this again begs the question of what an ally is. What agreements were reached between the districts? How much bleed is there in administration? Do the internal disciplinary policies of your allies actually even concern you? Let alone warrant you not just breaking your alliance, but actively attacking them?

As for those that went on into Detroit, does that indicate that the place was not its own city? At what point, if any, is it possible for that to occur if we're going to follow a lineage of auths, but also doesn't allow occupation sans authorization?

On a personal level I understand your pain, our bloodlines share a lot of the loss. My line has been adrift, unsure of what we're looking to do with our lives.

But there are multiple ways deaths could have been prevented that have nothing to do with whether there was participation from the last district or not. The past can't be changed, but perhaps some of the mistakes made that increased the death toll can be remembered and avoided in the future. But even if there weren't other means of reducing the death count, unless the things the other cities heard about the districts in Chicago being their own were false, then there was no clear imperative impetus upon the remaining district. They are not responsible.

Topanga, if fears about a power play WERE correct, and that district came under fire, I'm quite sure that one of the first people they would've gone running to is one of the people who's death intervention could've prevented. If that isn't shooting onself in the foot rather beautifully, I'm not sure what is.

Topanga, allow me to reference several profiles, regarding the alleged PUBLIC loyalties of a couple of the leaders of Detroit and Philadelphia:

Alucard - "Always a SouthSider".
BrickTop - "Forever loyal to ChaosSpike and Subtle".
Anomaly -  "Twin Peaks Alumni".

Are those examples of Godfathers who are acting independently? If you're willing to publicly state loyalty to someone else.. it is reasonable to assume that you are taking decisions with them.

Yes, there are several ways that some of those deaths could have been prevented. This is one of them. The past can't be changed, but it can sure as fuck be learned from. And what better way to learn than to discuss?

As for your point about districts in Chicago - my great grandmother was a Chicago crew leader, and I can give plenty of examples of the Chicago Godfathers working TOGETHER and supporting EACH OTHER in the betterment and security of the city. When there was a threat to the city, therefore, even from within, I believe it reasonable to say that I find it very surprising that these people who professed both loyalty to each other and a desire to work together for the city, sat it out.

For your opening post to start the thread, I would just like to laugh at how narrow minded you are. Go home, I hope you're drunk if you think that someone isn't a loyal ally for not helping you take down another of their loyal allies. I'd also like to laugh at how little you know of war that you thought the aggressors would take no casualties. Seriously? 5 Godfathers with guns and you expected little to no casualties or just low ranking casualties? You clearly know nothing of war, casualties should be assumed and efforts to minimize them can only go so far... especially when a GF doesn't log on enough to mix up his pro time in Cpt-Harris' case and your opponents pro'd 2 guns that could literally kill anyone in the game. That's why some of Detroit's old districts were so happy with their takedown, it wasn't because they accomplished it, but because they did so without losing many of their own with so few numbers on their side. Something I'm still proud of being a part of considering just how many freaking BGs they had.

"What I know Topanga, is that according to South Side, they had no idea that they had lost control of Black Bottom and Corktown, that those districts, supposedly loyal to ChaosSpike, were going on a Philadelphia fighting mission a couple of days before. But, curiously, ChaosSpike didn't choose to teach his disloyal districts a lesson. That in itself surely is enough to make his word and the motives of him himself and of the Godfathers he authed into Detroit questionable."

Detroit's districts didn't have a seat in the CH GF councils so they were their own entity separate of Chicago and if you're trying to say an independent entity needs permission to do anything then you honestly have me convinced that you're just another former PH member crying in the streets again because everyone wasn't outraged you died. Boo hoo you died. The only people outraged you died were West Side and NY and maybe Harris and his mostly IA district (sorry Kpacumup, I love you bud but I'm sure by now even you guys are willing to admit you're quite inactive as a district)... And they were mostly pissed because we beat them to the punch, HA HA HA take that AlabamaWorley and company! I at least have that over you Lynch, my friend! You killed us but we killed PH first! The rest just jumped in for a possible district as a prize for helping, because they were shot at, or out of loyalty to West Side over South Side. I don't know who you are, but stop being a butthurt Beverly and move on.

The Detroit districts were directly allied to ChaosSpike for obvious reasons just as Downton, DT is to Lynch but they weren't the same entity and didn't necessarily check in on every move but that direct link does make Lynch and Chaos responsible for moves they can't control. (Shhh, don't tell anyone this but that's why authing someone into a district is such a big deal) Should Black Bottom have also asked Lynch, JakeLuciano, Cpt-Harris, Solastalgia, and ChaosSpike if they were allowed to auth Madchild-? Of course not they were their own district, and so "teaching his disloyal districts a lesson" is a joke of an idea.

And just in case you haven't noticed, CH is fucking massive. The Detroit Districts that killed PH didn't warn CH because warning all of CH (or any of CH in my opinion) that you're planning to attack anyone should be widely understood as basically telling your enemy that you're coming because of all the possible leaks. And as for the move orchestrated by West Side itself, a few choice conversations of intentions and discussions for plans for the city AFTER the Philadelphia takedown probably could've avoided the whole thing, but they didn't happen and this was the result. Lack of communication has always been and will always be a popular indirect cause of war, c'est le vie. Also, something else you said that was just too silly for me to actually copy because someone might actually think I said it hints at finding out how the leak got out. You clearly have no idea how info gathering works if you think you'll ever find out how anyone finds out you're going to attack before you do. Those bonds are usually held close because a friend is risking a lot to help you like that and any fool that betrays a friend like that will soon have no friends standing by his/her side, and I truly hope my departed brothers knew how to keep quiet for all of our own sakes.

We should all learn from the wise words of zombie puppet PsychoPaul!

"'I'd just woke up you twats! but I won't cry about it and be butt hurt and repeatedly say 'nice power play' in a sarcdastic way, because I am not 7. Well played CH/NY BUT ner ner ner ner ner, we hit PH first NY! HA'"

He accepted death and in death got one last joke on his enemy out without complaining! A true inspiration that corpse is right there!

Well done West Side, I wish we would've come to you with an apology for Lawrence and an explanation of the Philadelphia attack and plans of what to do with the city sooner or even struck first but shit happens. And once again, HA HA HA we got Philadelphia first!!!

And regardless of whether or not you agree with me, at least I didn't make a thread bashing a Godfather, lol. I'd be disappointed if you survived making a thread insulting his decision and blaming him for any casualties when he didn't decide to start the war.

Alright, my friend, lets break this down.

For starters, who am I? Descendant of the Anna bloodline.

Secondly.. calling me narrow minded, when you're sat making immature as fuck comments about "HA HA HA we killed them first"? Yes, because that is the behavior of an incredibly respectful, open minded mobster. I sure as fuck hope you're trolling, but I sadly really don't think you are.

I also didn't think we would take no casualties, I just am of the opinion that there were ways that less casualties could've been sustained. Which you may have picked up on if you actually read what I said.

The reason I am in the streets is not because of the life my mother had in Philadelphia, it is because of the life I have in Chicago. You are clearly unable to let go of your fathers last days, I am already over my mothers. This speech is not about the reasons why DT did this, PH did that - what the fuck ever. You and I have already spoken about that. This speech is supposed to create some kind of discussion, not rehash the decision made by DT to attack PH.

If your father genuinely had no other achievement in his life here that you can speak of than "Hahaha we hit PH first", I pity the time he wasted.

You also say the "only" people enraged that Philly died.. well.. it was enough people to wipe the attackers out, wasn't it?

If those districts truly wanted to be seen as independent, we would not have been seeing and also hearing in coffee shops and probably if it was checked up on, in the street speeches about them making their moves, about how loyal they were to their former district. If those districts truly wanted to be seen as independent, they shouldn't have been nosing up ChaosSpike's skirt. You either are a thing, or you are not. When you try to play it both ways, you get messes like this.

Now, I'm pretty sure that only a complete and UTTER idiot would fail to notice how big Chicago is.. I'm merely saying that I find it unlikely that South Side/ChaosSpike had no idea that this move was happening. Other districts in Chicago, Detroit and New York were clearly uncomfortable with what they witnessed, clearly found the move lacking badly enough in reason and aggressive enough that they felt the need to act over it. I'm assuming that they also came to the same conclusions as I have; these districts have boasted enough about being loyal to South Side and still considering themselves a part of South Side enough times that that particular shit has stuck. And backfired spectacularly on all of them.

You also overestimate my desire to survive. I'd rather die for saying what I think, for instigating discussion, than to keep my mouth shut and play nicely. But, if you'd really like to play that game, I'd be disappointed to see you survive publicly calling for the death of a fellow member of your crew. And, for the record.. I'm not here to bash. I'm here to discuss a theory, nothing more.

Sorry Anna I didn't read much of this seriously after stomaching a thread dedicated to bashing a man for a decision you couldn't possibly understand. How close was he to ChaosSpike? Did he have the guns to really make a difference? Did he get the information in time to make a move? I'm sure there are more factors that you don't understand and I'm sure he knew what could possibly happen by staying out and still made that decision.

I also didn't think we would take no casualties, I just am of the opinion that there were ways that less casualties could've been sustained. Which you may have picked up on if you actually read what I said.

You included JessiePinkman in that list. He was the first big counter shot by a prod GF who then got pro'd again before any known people able to him should've had an open shot timer. What would've saved him, might I ask?

The reason I am in the streets is not because of the life my mother had in Philadelphia, it is because of the life I have in Chicago. You are clearly unable to let go of your fathers last days, I am already over my mothers. This speech is not about the reasons why DT did this, PH did that - what the fuck ever. You and I have already spoken about that. This speech is supposed to create some kind of discussion, not rehash the decision made by DT to attack PH.

Really? You really are gonna try to pretend that you are only out here because it's for the best of CH's interests? I can tell you right now that no one's buying it, lol. And if you really think that I'm that upset over my father's death then you know nothing of my bloodline and never will. I only care about intentions, never actions. Killing me for the sake of defending yourself or another reason you see fit is fine by me as long as it isn't specifically to spite me. You included Chaos should've scolded his districts for making the move hon, you brought the move into the conversation not me. I just laughed at your naive beliefs of how things should've gone in districts you have no knowledge of whatsoever.

If your father genuinely had no other achievement in his life here that you can speak of than "Hahaha we hit PH first", I pity the time he wasted.

My father was a Godfather RHM to a man he truly respected. lols at you for being dumb enough to think that because I said I was proud of one thing that it was the proudest moment.

You also say the "only" people enraged that Philly died.. well.. it was enough people to wipe the attackers out, wasn't it?

I know for a fact that all the outraged people were only mad because we beat them to the kill and they planned to kill Philadelphia as well, lol. Great counterpoint. And yes I love any "HA HA You killed us but we killed so and so first" comments because... (even more OOC than this thread has been so far: don't tell anyone but this is really all just a game.)

If those districts truly wanted to be seen as independent, we would not have been seeing and also hearing in coffee shops and probably if it was checked up on, in the street speeches about them making their moves, about how loyal they were to their former district. If those districts truly wanted to be seen as independent, they shouldn't have been nosing up ChaosSpike's skirt. You either are a thing, or you are not. When you try to play it both ways, you get messes like this.\

You truly know nothing of auths... at all. I don't care if you've been a CL a million times. If you can't make up your mind after being given your own city/district you're not a leader you're a puppet for the man who authed you. Finally, ChaosSpike died because he was just as loyal to his auths as they were to him. Independent, but loyal enough that in a real fight to the death he would've stepped in no matter the odds of surviving. So if you try to call mutual respect and loyalty like that nosing up a skirt, you must be getting desperate for counterpoints.

Now, I'm pretty sure that only a complete and UTTER idiot would fail to notice how big Chicago is.. I'm merely saying that I find it unlikely that South Side/ChaosSpike had no idea that this move was happening. Other districts in Chicago, Detroit and New York were clearly uncomfortable with what they witnessed, clearly found the move lacking badly enough in reason and aggressive enough that they felt the need to act over it. I'm assuming that they also came to the same conclusions as I have; these districts have boasted enough about being loyal to South Side and still considering themselves a part of South Side enough times that that particular shit has stuck. And backfired spectacularly on all of them.

I'd like to counter this bit with a quote that fit most of NY's reasoning for this...

I'm going to throw in a slightly different perspective here. I wanted to help remove them because I could see New York some day soon becoming the proverbial meat in the sandwhich. CH is massive and has many districts, DT and PH were very close in may aspects and thus controlled many districts. NY is well, small.

So, I'm not going to sit here and say I had issues with how they took down PH or their reasons for the takedown, as they didn't matter to me. The effect on me is that it meant that my little District became a lot more vulnerable and thats something I would never be comfortable with and so was happy to assist when consulted by the New York Godfathers.

There was a valiant effort from the fallen, Alucard was a man that I held in high regard already as were many of his cohorts, their fight last night proved they were no easy targets. I wish their offspring well for the future and I hope to see them emulating their parents, even if its to rise up and knock down people like me. This world thrives on the young building and removing the old.

- AlabamaWorley

And as for communicating with ChaosSpike, I don't think anyone but ChaosSpike, Alucard or Subtle could truly answer that but I will speak for what I knew of the man. If you didn't have your head in the sand as a CL, you'd know the same thing that any other CH CL should know by this point. ChaosSpike was pushing for a unified CH so much it could almost be considered a fault of his. Telling him had a very high chance of the information getting passed on, but regardless of whether he knew or not he was going to be targeted for blatantly obvious reasons. I'd go so far as to say Lynch would admit this because he knew Chaos was so close to Subtle, Alucard, Madchild-, and BrickTop. Turns out most people think that suiciding for your old CL isn't the most loyal thing after all, it's baring with any situation to help those you trust, respect, and are loyal to. Just as I'm sure Lynch would join in if anyone attacked Anomaly, or the other NY districts if someone targeted one of theirs.

You also overestimate my desire to survive. I'd rather die for saying what I think, for instigating discussion, than to keep my mouth shut and play nicely. But, if you'd really like to play that game, I'd be disappointed to see you survive publicly calling for the death of a fellow member of your crew. And, for the record.. I'm not here to bash. I'm here to discuss a theory, nothing more.

And unlike you I'm worth more alive than dead for my allies. Instigating discussions is enough to get people killed if you don't do it the right way so you should the art of speaking before spewing in the streets on serious matters. You came to discuss a theory with a massively negative tale and no factual backing that he could've changed anything very much by getting involved. You might not like the idea that people can get pissed at things that aren't direct insults, but you're being irresponsible and could get yourself AND OTHERS KILLED. You're representing your crew leader in such an ugly fashion there's a good chance he'll protect you and keep you safe but catch shit for this slop. I'm just here to voice the opinions of most of us who can't stand whining and bitching. Nut up and do something or sit down and shut up. Don't just yelp.

Khione I'm not sure I'm parsing the first part of your speech correctly. (I understand the words chosen are done so specifically.) I think that what you're saying is if North Side fears of a power play were correct they would have gone to Cpt-Harris for help, but because they didn't join in he died.

I haven't heard any such fears from the North Side. I am not saying they were not expressed, just that I cannot address that as I've heard nothing of it, and I've no doubt that more bodies can influence a war, but I am not convinced that that particular death would have necessarily been avoided. There's certainly a better chance that MadChild- could have been killed before killing Cpt-Harris, but those of us who have worked with MadChild-'s line in the past (or even just encouraged his family members to consume alcohol more efficiently in the coffee shops) know that his blood is unquestionably tenacious.  I find it highly unlikely that Cpt-Harris was skipped over for a pro due to lack of soldiers, thus indicating that MadChild- beat the pro shooter to the shot. This very well could have happened either way.

The world has become a very confusing place in recent times in terms of the tattoos borne by its mobsters. MadChild- bore one that indicated allegiance to the line of Cpt-Harris's LHM. Was MadChild- a godfather acting independently or was he consulting with the descendent of SpaceCowboy? Solastalgia is remembering your ancestor's crew, did that impact the decision to stay out?

I'm not knocking discussion, I'm a fan.

Our lineages have entwined in many ways. (Some which Cory_Chase tried to ban.) I'm familiar with yours. There is a difference between working together though and BEING together. Independent districts can choose to work together, but they aren't required to. If there isn't some kind of formalized over-arching structure for the city then they didn't have to do anything, and the conflicts previously mentioned with districts fighting a district AS the aggressors does not not obviate whether they should do something. If they were not obligated to do so they aren't responsible for the outcomes from not doing so.

As someone who was woke from bed due to the war i will give my opinions from my viewpoint at the time.

The Durdens had invaded once more, in desperation only finding gangsters as there recruit.  I decided to do my part and remove what i could before booking myself into a hotel just so i could lay low with my bodyguard Pedantic.  Pedantic knew the place well but me not so much, but was his general flop house basically where he would take girls sometimes for an hour or two.

Pedantic was running down to the bar for me to grab a bottle of something to help us sleep when one of Jake's men said meet at the coffee shop the south side has fallen.  Being clueless as to who or why we swapped the whiskey for coffee and made our way to the burbs.  Lucky adrenaline was on my side as could travel and shoot. 

I was informed of the players in the war and how it had been limited with the assumption no one snitched; which happened anyway allegedly.  The as you define defenders i guess unknowing of who was attacking attacked the Suburbs in the form of shots on Tiburon, Ironman and Dipple.  At that point any alliances we would have had to the district allied with Philly was broken through the attack.

As for sitting on the fence, I think it is hard for a leader as their first priority is protecting their members and if they turned down the choice of fighting would be a different matter to not being invited.  I look what a great unit Chicago has been and it can still regain the same Composure even without those we have lost as their children will come back in many cases a little wiser but hopefully not feeling limited by who is left behind to lead.

The biggest war problems were the use of private flights to keep tags on people and the use of pro’ers with some people watching for 4 hour hours over someone just to get the kill.  If someone flies and shoots before you can realize, it is too late no matter how many people you have.  I remember a rogue lasting around 11 hours this way by flying just before shooting and grabbing pro to sustain his existence but was a tactic used by both sides or casualties would have been far higher.

Do i hold any animosity to either side, or those who didn't take part.  No, this is the life we chose and the business we are in and is never a pretty ending to it.

Lynch told both Bianca and Goku he would shoot them, not because he was at all serious but because he was bored of both of them approaching him about their concerns for the other and trying to gain his help to take out the other. Much in the same way my father would mail Anomaly telling him he'll shoot him if he didn't accept his OCs.

Yes Lynch started Chinese whispers 3 months ago putting tensions between our district and south side very high for a short period all so Lynch could finally take out ChaosSpike several months later..seems legit. 

The two Detroit districts and Chaos were still close, I've had it on good authority that Chaos was informed of their plan to take out Philly prior to it happening. Hence it would have been foolish for the West Side to only take down those two districts and not expect retaliation from Chaos, which he's already said would have been the case. It wasn't a "power play" like the take down by the two Detroit districts because the thought had never even entered anyone at West Sides minds prior to them taking out PH for a quite frankly ridiculous reason. We knew we were next on chopping block and decided we didn't want to die in our sleeps some weeks down the line and so decided the best form of defense was offense. 

In regards to the original comment, I must admit I tuned in and out during the subsequent debate. Do i think districts sitting on the fence resulted in the death of some prominent members from the aggressors? Honestly no. Prior to the take down there was a "leak" from a now dead member of West Side which resulted in some of the high Detroit/Philly guns getting pro'd prior to the first wave. This was the only reason any of them had the chance to trade any deaths. This also created some confusion among our shooters hence why the first wave wasn't as "smooth" as it might otherwise have been and why we all lost men. 

You'll have to forgive me, time is short and I have not had the opportunity to listen to everyone thus far. However, I've quickly scanned over the crowd to see if any of my colleagues from the North Side have had anything to say and as they haven't, I feel I'll jump in to have my two cents on what I feel is a rather accusatory refrain; the only thing you seem t o be missing is a large neon arrow pointing towards the North Side! With that in mind, apologies if I rehash anything that's been said.

This war was ultimately planned, executed and concluded on reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with the North Side. It unfortunately appears that Chicago's historical solidarity in the face of adversity seems to have been both a blessing and a curse - people exist the city and the individual district Leaders exist as a homogeneous group working with some sort of hive mind ability.

You want to know where North Side was? I could quite easily counter and ask where The Loop was when the rest of Chicago unanimously asked for its support in taking down the Detroit duo of Tarantino and McDermott. I won't, though. Why? Because it's a silly question. Every single organisation involved in the previous Detroit takedown was involved as they had a specific reason why they wanted Detroit removed. Harris didn't feel that way, his position was understood and respected. It's not like someone decides to start playing their pipe and everyone else lines up behind them and dances down the river's edge; your forebear was among the decision makers in Chicago in the not so distant past - you know this as well as anyone.

Frankly had my Godfather have elected to take part in this war I would have lost my respect for him - and that is a lot of respect. Our involvement, had there been any, would have been based purely on the rather spurious reasoning of 'could get some lovely notches on our guns out of this' or 'X side looks like they're winning, let's step in!'. Neither is principled, and neither is a valid reason to risk your comrades and underlings.

Godfather Lynch had his grievances with the Southside and their associated organisations and far be it from me, or anyone else, to decry those; but those reasons were not North Sides. We had no quarrel with the new Philly Leadership and we had no affinity with the old; had we voluntarily waded into a bloody war being fought on grounds which didn't apply to us we'd have heard a furious clicking sound as the bodies of Caesar, Machiavelli and Sun Tzu span rapidly in their graves.

Where do you draw this arbitrary line, anyway? ChaosSpike and his amigos are the bad guys here, simply because they lost their war; but you could nevertheless make the argument that we could, and should, have waded in on his behalf into a war that did not concern us for no reason other than an ill defined concept of alliance -  he too shared a city with us.

In fact, Godfather Lynch in his wisdom understood this before a shot was fired in anger. He deliberately chose not to involve both ourselves and the Suburbs in the first wave precisely because it was a conflict that did not concern us. Indeed, before you so passively-aggressively point the finger at our district you should perhaps examine the motives of your own district. The suburbs were in a similar position to ourselves - uninvolved in a cross country war because it simply did not concern them; the decision to immerse themselves in it was probably due to the unwarranted death of Tiburon than it was out of some childish and over simplified definition of fealty, loyalty or alliance.

I'm sorry Cantona, and I'm not trying to press the matter, just throw my two cents out there as well... But I can't agree with you at some degree on your statement. I do however respect your decisions, but I can't see why you would 'lose respect for you Godfather' as you say if he were to make the other decision.

You had members shot at by the opposing side of the war, no? To me, that's enough of a reason for me and my squad to step into limit those shots. Especially when it was a crewleader from Philly shooting at one my own? I don't think it would cross my mind for a second time on what to do. Much less, I wouldn't lose any respect for my Godfather for jumping into a war that didn't involve it, but it seemed the other side was forcefully involving them.

That, I can't agree with you on.

The first shot at my side, I might raise an eyebrow... Anything after that and you have my attention, something they were obviously begging for shooting at my family. A war I didn't plan to step in, but it seems like if I step in and help, it will result in an earlier demise of the enemy and cut down the shot that might be taken at my family, who wasn't even in it originally.

But what do I know, I'm just a squire.

I'd quite agree with you Rhakios, but the only Dunder Mifflinite we had shot at by an identifiable marksman was Snidely; whom Dexter had between his sights and thankfully missed. Had Dexter lived on, things may have transpired quite differently. Had Dexter's actions been reflective of the wider 'policy' the PH/DT collective had, things may have transpired differently.

As things were, Dexter died almost instantly after his taking his shot; and from-beyond-the-grave he was able to inform me that he frankly had no idea who was or wasn't involved - it was a random shot, essentially. This was further backed by a couple of the Godfathers involved on the DT/PH confirmed they knew we were not involved. For us, the case was essentially closed and that was the end of any identifiable aggression for the evening!