Seeing the rant and raving going on I wonder if people could just step back and reliese. That is was not to long ago that I remember that talk like this would get you wacked.

Although I agree with many of the positions here there is something to be said about the placement of a few people here, really do we need the same people in charge all of the time. Give others a chance to grow and maybe they may surprise us.

Stelengum has pretty much summed it up perfectly. I would like to see anyone come out here and have a reasonable debate with the points that he has bought up. We are meant to evolve and move forward in La Costra Nostra but I fear we are just going backwards. As a community we are blinkered and just have tunnel vision, too many people walk into hand positions or get authed based on their ancestors rather than what they have done for their current family. 

I too am sort of "on the fence" with this. I can honestly say that I would have at the very least a concern with taking orders from a thug. I personally would try to give the benefit of the doubt that my CL knew what he/she was doing with their decision. It does kind of seem like even if there were some new bloodline on our streets that exhibited all of the qualities needed for a great advisor, leader, or what have you, it still seems like he doesn't get those top positions because he/she hasn't gone through their ancestral "rite of passage" so to speak. I do understand from the CL point of view that once you know how a particular bloodline handles their business in this thing of ours, you can pretty much be sure that it's not going to change. However, I'm not too positive that these are the only reasons. This buddy buddy thing can destroy a city. Have to remember that if you got a Made guy who has been busting his ass trying to prove his worth and has always been loyal even behind the scenes, only for him to get back to the HQ to see some unfamiliar face sitting on the right hand of the boss, it's enough to get his knickers in a twist. Sometimes, that can be a dangerous thing. And NOW, because of that CL's decision, he/she has actually created an internal problem in his family, Of course a member will not always express dissatisfaction with the boss, but the feelings are there nonetheless. That is all, hope I didn't sound too much of an idiot, these are just my opinions on the matter.

Role-playing is dead. That's why you have the same people get godfather with the same RH/LH combination years in a row. People don't realize that stagnancy isn't a lack of war, it's a lack of originality. War is usually the bringer of change, but somehow we've dug ourselves into such a rut that even wars don't change jack shit anymore. It's the same people with the same friends with the same hands, just different aliases.

Try not doing the same thing as everyone else and then you'll end the stagnancy. It's not "role-playing" if everyone plays the same fucking role.

I'm as supportive to the idea of ranks being meaningful and being respected as anyone but the Right Hand and Left Hand positions do not fit within the ranking structure and have a different purpose all together. As such they cannot be treated as a rank. Now the extent of power that a Hand holds is mostly dependent on their Leader and what he or she is willing to bestow upon them however there are some standards that are held in this thing of ours when it comes to Hands. For example, it is well accepted that a Right Hand Man speaks with the same voice as their leader. So whatever this Right Hand Man says is the same as if it were coming from his or her Leader personally. As such a standard exists it places importance on the Leader to select a Right Hand that is in tune with his or her thinking. This creates a necessity to forgo the traditional ranking system and sometimes select a fresh face as the qualities required to gain higher rankings do not necessarily include the ability to run the crew as the Leader sees fit.

I've heard tales from my father and grandfather before him. Some of these tales included a Leader who attempted to set their Hand positions with at least a minimum rank requirement. It led to a rotating cast of Hands and a litany of mistakes which hastened that Leaders demise. I've also heard stories of a Left Hand man who was given unprecedented power by his Leader to reigns and steer the crew as he saw fit and that Left Hand man's bloodline, despite losing several members to wars only to have lower ranked relatives replace them, led his Leader into the highest spot in this thing of ours before he was cut down by an unfortunate 1% shot. Leaders can use whatever criteria they choose to select their Hands but history shows the most successful Leaders choose their Hands according to their ability to lead as a cohesive group and not rank.

As for anyone who says they would not listen to the orders of a thug Right Hand Man let me just remind you that you are not disobeying a thug. That thug is speaking for the Crew Leader. You are disobeying your Leader.

I think what you're saying Totes reflects the reality that exists right now, but not the ideal...and I think that's where the disappointment or disagreement comes from.

When a person is given the rank of Made Man, they are untouchable to outsiders, and that is exactly what a thug or associate is...an outsider. I think that is why people are coming out and saying that rank doesn't mean anything anymore. Being a Right or Left hand means that you are privy to a lot of information regarding your family including communications, membership, and finances. This is information that I believe should be limited to people who are actually full members of the family. I can understand being upset that a non-member has been given power over you, and more trust by your leader. You put in the work and proved yourself. You even swore an oath. what has that associate done?

This should be the ideal, but has seemed to be almost impossible to implement in practice. Family heritage looms strong, and I can understand as it is infinitely easier to appoint trusted bloodlines rather than grooming a new one for the role.

It's the reality that has always existed. Thugs and gangsters getting appointed to Hand positions is nothing new. It's more exasperated now because there are so many Leaders and the quality people are so spread out that many leaders are forced to rely on lower ranking people who have the benefit of their bloodline's history and aggregate knowledge over people who have put in time and earned well and showed their loyalty but maybe don't display the qualities of a good leader.

The question is rw318, would you practice what you preach if, just suppose, you are authed anytime soon? Tis right that the RH can't go on a killing spree using the power vested on him, but he still has access to your mailbox, which may contain some highly classified info. That is enough leverage to cause some serious damage, if he/she wants to. I'd like to refer to an incident which took place not very long back, when AaronMcKeever set up in the contest district of Staten island, I believe. Both his hands turned against him and sought the help of another CL to have him removed. Would you still prefer to have hands, whose bloodlines you haven't come across, who might just fuck you over in the same way? Personally, I'd rather trust my life with someone my bloodline has worked with before than anyone else. Not that I'd never trust them, but precedence matters. Aye, it isn't ideal, but such is life.

The LH spot on the other hand, is the one to experiment with. As Dan has mentioned earlier, it's quite a brilliant way of testing whether someone is deserving of the respect that a slanty suit demands, and groom that person to being able to hold the responsibility that a RH is required of, and giving him/her the opportunity, when he's stellar. Just voicing MY thoughts, opinions may differ on this matter.

It's done guys... districts ruined this game. All the bells and whistles.. the additional BS just spoiled something that was so perfectly done.. it's over.. enjoy a mediocre life of being a click monkey and dying..

EVERYONE IS IWP!!!

I remember when IWP meant someone BELIEVED in you or you had invested some money into building a character... it's just sad.. the whole thing is sad...

RIP MR

I remember when someone named ThirdSun used some allegedly illicit means to make himself insanely well protected and received a Hand position because of it. Hespent a couple of weeks acting like a big shot until people got tired and put a big shot in his skull along with the rest of the crew. Another illustration of why it's important to put the right people in Hand positions and not just the highest ranked or most protected.

I remember when I bought a new car and went to work... allegedly is right... ThirdSun paid with his own damn money... he got witnesses... but that ain't me... I have an awesome life.. this place is just sad.. there is no power.. 

JakeLuciano finished his 75 petties AFTER becoming a crew leader... that was the beginning of the end..

I absolutely love this topic. It is one that I have debated amongst friends in the coffee shops for hours upon hours. I will try to make my points as short as possible otherwise I could go on forever.

I agree with the fact that Right Hand is a position of trust. However, if you have Made Men and women that you cannot trust it makes me wonder why they are not there? Also if you can trust a former enemies Right Hand more than the people in your family that also brings people to wonder on the basis of ancestry besties.

Most people that know me or my bloodline will know I am strongly opposed to the same cycles. It gets boring and frustrating to watch. When people get bored they tend to leave this community until their next of kin is ready to step in. Maybe they hope things will change by the time of their bloodlines return but more often then not these days everything is the same.

You want your besties in hand positions? Great. How about making sure they can be bothered to work for them like the rest of your family has worked for you? Logically that would make sense to me. I have argued what I deem the silver platter syndrome for quite some time.

If you are different and not in a clique chances are you are going to be passed up. Regardless of how much you work for that leader. It takes a lot of trial and error to find that right leader. The one that isn't hung up on who your ancestors are. The one that won't box you into a category based off the past. I agree that what you do with this life should be what is important. Not what your ancestors did at any point in time.

As much as we like to say that Right Hand and Left Hand aren't ranks, they are roles. Their ranks do come into play with how everyone else feels in regards to them being handed something. However, for me there is an exception. If your Right Hand dies to a rogue or a war then I can understand the thug being Right Hand as kin to that family. I'm sure to some that seems hypocritical but its something I can understand. I do not understand a complete outsider being granted the role without working for it though.

I personally would rather work for anything I may or may not be given.

That is just my two cents anyways.

I'll go get the tubas, get the tubas

Ultimately this argument can be had to death and I absolutely agree that the practical implications of a Thug being a RHM are preposterous.

However our actions need to be based upon the framework the gods developed for us and the existing framework allows for such a system. It stands to reason that once one bloodline has proven loyalty to a family and city their son/daughter will be accepted back in with open arms.

Does it make sense from a lineage point of view that they instantly assume the title of Right Hand Man? Of course not. Nor does it make sense that they inherit their parents (OOC: Account Bound) assets. Nor does it make sense that they are born with intricate knowledge about our world and therein lies the ultimate argument.

If we were to "forget" how this world functioned with each new birth in our lineage then the argument against bloodlines being authed and placed in positions of power time and again would hold significantly more water. The reason they rise to these positions is because of the inherent knowledge supernaturally passed down from generation to generation. 

I will never have a hand I don't trust 100% and the trust I have with my hands has built up over MANY generations. Ultimately the quest for ultimate realism is never attainable. You can't rob a store every 3mins, you can't fire a million shots in anticipation of someone becoming old enough to be killed. So yes; their are elements that contradict the goal of realism but short of wiping our memory clean at the death of every generation, this isn't likely to change.

That, ^, should be all we need to hear.  It covers all angles and leaves no room for confusion. Well said, Numbers4Glory.