I have to admit that there is little more that I can say that Don lronsight has not already said. My bloodline has long abhorred the systems involving districts and was less than impressed to see Las Vegas and Los Angeles be re-opened for our world to conduct business in with the population of our world being what it is. We have also traditionally been a huge critic of the fact that the standard of leaders has plummeted (although in saying this, there are a number of leaders around currently that I do think are fantastic at what they do). I feel like just about everyone is thinking they can name at least one or two people, and I'm not mentioning names here, that have been given districts by the Godfather Council quite obviously just for the purpose of putting SOMETHING there. That you've seen take over a district and either laughed out loud or shook your head, wondered why, and questioned whether somebody slipped something into the brownies at the last GFC meeting. 

I'm not out here to put the blame on the GFC for this, despite what many of you are probably thinking. Personally I believe that the GFC is in a bad situation when it comes to making decisions to re-populate our world. The Gods have stated publicly that they are leaving things, in terms of districts, as a blank canvas for us as a community to populate how we wish. Ask any Godfather, though, I'm sure they'll all tell you that there is pressure from one place or another to blindly rush into filling districts. 

It's a strong personal belief that the Gods need to fix this problem rather than those of us here in the community because we shouldn't make sacrifices that don't benefit us, and it's something that I have discussed with the Gods and to an extent. I do agree with their stance that we in this community at the end of the day should be deciding things like how many Godfathers per city, but the fact is that interventions by the Gods such as the occupied districts were they left empty too long as well as the benefits in terms of gun strength and the like that come from obtaining the rank of Godfather have created a culture where it is seen as necessary to expand wherever possible. This coupled with the fact that we've never as a community lost the notion of the role of a Godfather that existed in the days of my ancestors who saw Godfathers rule over a city means that we're seeing further expansion by each Godfather once they are placed in a district of their own. Again - I don't blame the Godfather Council for this. It's the culture of the entire community. 

The population of our world and the amount of districts open to us, through these eyes, means that we as a community cannot go on the way things are. Ideally, I'd love to see a return to the days of my ancestors where we had cities, but since the Gods don't want to go down that road, we as a community are left to make the best of what we have until the Gods decide otherwise. To me, this means we have to take heed of what lronsight has said, and look to ways we can keep the amount of leaders in proportion with the active population and ensure that the standards of both leaders and Godfathers are kept high, rather than just handing it out because there are empty positions.

My bloodline has long abhorred the systems involving districts and was less than impressed to see Las Vegas and Los Angeles be re-opened for our world to conduct business in with the population of our world being what it is.

Districts basically just changed our world's potential ratio of godfathers to non-godfathers. And even then, it was a slight increase (at the time), as we had many more cities open. Even if that ratio doubled or tripled, I fail to see why that is innately bad. It seems like your abhorrence is more to change than to some "golden ratio" between leaders and non-leaders. And if there is some ideal ratio in your mind, you've neglected to share it, which I feel would crucially benefit your thoughts.

We have also traditionally been a huge critic of the fact that the standard of leaders has plummeted (although in saying this, there are a number of leaders around currently that I do think are fantastic at what they do). I feel like just about everyone is thinking they can name at least one or two people, and I'm not mentioning names here, that have been given districts by the Godfather Council quite obviously just for the purpose of putting SOMETHING there.

There are shitty leaders. There have always been shitty leaders. However, in times past, there has been some force which judges these men and women and held them to a higher standard. This force has long since departed, and now steaming piles of shit like TheTripleDeuce manage to get Godfather right under everyone's noses. I would contend that we need more judgment. More contrast between cities, districts, and leaders. Because if you claim one leader is shitty for his lack of street presence, lack of motivation, lack of original thoughts, etc., then you're gonna cast a pretty wide net in these waters.

I'm sad that you didn't name names, frankly. If you want to show us what a bad leader is and why they shouldn't be a leader, do it. Hiding behind "everyone can name one or two people," accomplishes absolutely nothing. If you call someone out, they either change or die. Either way, you have one less shitty leader.

I'm not out here to put the blame on the GFC for this, despite what many of you are probably thinking. Personally I believe that the GFC is in a bad situation when it comes to making decisions to re-populate our world.

The existence of the GFC creates a bad situation. The idea that counter-intuitive top-down culture changes could be successful is not only infeasible, but idiotic. Why would anyone "strive" to be a member of a council that has to balance the "community" with their own personal interests? Why should anyone work hard to forfeit their work in exchange for other people's ideas? I think it's cowardice. People have to "band together for the community" or their reputation is shot to shit. They're painted as "selfish," "overly-competitive," or "assholes," when they're doing precisely what we came here to do (OOC: HAVE FUN).

Ask any Godfather, though, I'm sure they'll all tell you that there is pressure from one place or another to blindly rush into filling districts. 

Boy these posts are getting long. Umm, I'm gonna save my breath on asking a Godfather. I already know what that "pressure" is, and it's the pressure of a group of people on the verge of godfatherhood with no place to shine. Each one will claim to be different, do their best, and make their city proud, but none of them will ever really do anything important or original. They'll just follow in with the real godfather, and the GFC social circle gains a new member. How exciting. I can't believe people aren't lining up to work for months to get such an honor.

It's a strong personal belief that the Gods need to fix this problem rather than those of us here in the community because we shouldn't make sacrifices that don't benefit us.

This is the cowardice. You're afraid to demand sacrifice, and instead will go to the Gods to make your changes for you. If you feel strongly enough about something to request a change to how our world works, won't you first try to change it yourself? You'd get a lot more respect doing it that way, that's for sure. Nobody whined their way to the top (disclaimer: this statement could be totally false. I'm actually pretty sure a number of people have whined their way to the top, and it sickens me). 

blahblahblah... have created a culture where it is seen as necessary to expand wherever possible

It's the age-old question; is it worth more to be powerful or right. Before the time of soulless targets (MIAs, RIAs, Durdens), each time you felt like training up your gun you had to take a life. You had to end someone else's career to empower your own. Wars were justified on the fact that it made you stronger, or your opponents weaker. It was irrelevant whether it was "right" or "wrong", and it's irrelevant now. If there's a way to acquire power in large amounts that's "socially acceptable," people are going to jump at that chance INSTANTLY. The disdain of acquiring power in any other way has been met with an absurd amount of hostility. The "culture" wasn't created by the Gods, it was here long before districts were. Look at wartime auths. Look at rogues. People do the "wrong" thing for the sake of power all the time. This isn't a new culture, it's the same culture with deeper pockets.

The population of our world and the amount of districts open to us, through these eyes, means that we as a community cannot go on the way things are.

I fail to see the logic in this point. You've once again neglected to mention your golden ratio of leaders to non-leaders, because otherwise you're just saying that 2 is better than 3 because it used to be 2 and now it's 3. There's no thought process, you're just drawing an opinion from an observation and portraying it as some kind of systemic theory. You just don't like it; there isn't anything inherently wrong about having this many leaders or districts. You're dragging your feet through change for reasons you can't even vocalize.

Ideally, I'd love to see a return to the days of my ancestors where we had cities, but since the Gods don't want to go down that road, we as a community are left to make the best of what we have until the Gods decide otherwise.

Why is this ideal? You've neglected the entirety of your argument. Plus, we aren't taking a backseat to the Gods. The action is yours, remember? This life, this world, is what you make of it. It's an elaborate and beautiful sandbox. It's time we stop asking for different sandcastle molds and start making sandcastles.

look to ways we can keep the amount of leaders in proportion with the active population

It is, by definition, in proportion. Your problem is with the numbers. Also, if you don't want so many leaders, kill some. That'd be a lot easier than telling 4 people to give up their HQs. Plus, those homeless have to go somewhere, right?

 ensure that the standards of both leaders and Godfathers are kept high, rather than just handing it out because there are empty positions.

Yajirobe seems to be on this bandwagon; and I am too. Let's kill off everyone who isn't up to snuff. We'll turn the GFC into a courtroom and dismantle every crew who isn't led by a good leader. Then we'll have high standards, right?

But, we'll also have a bunch of butthurt people because they didn't get their chance to "shine", or because of a mistake years ago will never get auth again.

We'll have people who have auth blood in their veins, whose ancestry has shown repeatedly their ability to lead, and we'll be able to look for the same people with every new iteration of leaders.

We'll have people who invested a lot of time into their work, and won't have their next of kin return because of how devastating the loss of their crewleader life is.

We'll have people who bitch and complain about how unfair and subjective the new "standards" are, but at least we'll have some, right? Right?

I have an idea. How about we empower people to be individuals, instead of making every godfather, district, and crewleader an extension of someone else? Let the leaders make real decisions with real people, and see where the chips fall. I'd imagine the good crewleaders would emerge sooner or later, and rather than a system of "picking" the good leaders, we'll let the world chew em up and decide for itself. There are a LOT of ways to solve this problem, and decreasing the number of districts will accomplish nothing. It'll be an aesthetic appeal for old souls, and nothing more.

My claim that districts = power comes from the Godfather boosts. That's really the only logistical problem with the districts in the first place, isn't it? You say power is based on a combination of politics, killing power, and wealth-generation, but all of those factor into having more districts. The variance in drug prices over a greater number of districts maximizes small-profit deals (which has become very popular since the inception of the districts), the presence of one or more additional godfathers tips the "killing power" scale quite a lot (which wouldn't be available without more districts), and the presence of politics is more potent with this system. If there's 10 Godfathers, doesn't it require a bit more reasoning/strategy/social skills to stay alive than with just 3 or 4? Plus, with so many leaders, a whole wealth of possible structural relationships could prosper. If, as I stated the first time, we promoted the independence of districts, we'd see a LOT more politics, as each district becomes an entity to regard in the national landscape.

Your opinion is that too many districts is bad, when in actuality it's just that; an opinion. Candy's danger to its consumer doesn't come from opinion, it comes from factual analysis of biology and physiology. You haven't proposed an analysis, you've proposed a thought process by which you contend that we are somehow "better" with less districts, despite providing anything short of a rough-sketch analogy to aid your ideas. But I do hope you'll elaborate on the details later on.

"Your belief in just how relevant the Godfathers boosts are is vastly over rating it. The title is a nice boost but the better hitters can notch on that additional 150 Wack stat difference from Don CLs to GFs in about 2 and a half weeks nowadays as previously noted by the many 300 kill per months shot reports that have been boasted about shortly after their passing. The money making from the boost is much less noticeable than that. You don't have to be a Godfather to take advantage of the varying drug prices or the abundant number of OCs. Quite frankly my own Godfather will likely admit that my daily earnings are likely noticeably larger than his despite having that boost. Having more districts doesn't do jack, having more people under you does and you don't actually need 3 districts to house 75 active members. That can easily be accomplished in one. I'm not going to explain militarily how easy it is to plan around the GF boost because some things are better left in war rooms."

"The increased number in political figures has actually done the opposite of what you're suggesting. More political figures has actually led to less moves because many at the top are worried they'll be attacked for looking aggressive, which leads to large groups forming that basically operate as one city anyways. The only difference being that they have multiple people wearing the title of Godfather."

"My opinion is that too much of anything is bad, and that's just an opinion backed by basically every scientific study of any idea or substance ever. I believe the number of occupied districts should reflect the number of active players. The number of districts is no where near comparable to the number of active players and there were 6 added on when many families were filled with IA members. If you had been around or paying attention at all, you'd have noticed that with the rest of us."

Now you're starting to lose me. I didn't say TripleDeuce was the first to turn on his city-colleagues, merely that his scenario offers a lesson to learn. The rest of your thoughts seem to align almost completely with mine, not the reverse. We both consider GFs to be the new "CLs", I just went a step further to claim that districts were the new crews (which would seem to follow from the concept that GFs are the new crewleaders?) My only thoughts on the diminishing values is that we've turned "Crewleadering" into a ghost of what it used to be. It's, as you say, basically just a sub-crew now of a larger "district" force.

"His scenario is the oldest scenario in the history of this thing of ours. Using it as a unique one is pointless and stupid, the total number of districts had nothing to do with that. Your opinions on comparing crews to districts is also off, because I'm yet to hear anyone make that comparison but you. The gods intended districts to equal the cities of old, and that's how many are beginning to view them. There are many lagging behind on the notion that being from the same home city means a lot, but there will always be people clasping to out of date ideas. I believe the Godfather of a district should be what the old Godfathers used to be. I don't currently see it that way based on what's currently around me, I previously mentioned what I currently see but I believe there is potential for this to be done right and not overextending ourselves definitely helps with that. Districts are the new cities, the way they're run is still linked to dated ways and that's the only thing keeping them in that structure. I believe that structure has been maintained because of forced expansions and people not thinking and planning these things out. With slowed expansions we are more likely to see 75 active members in one district. A number that greatly promotes in house communication and team work, which is a major part of the social aspect that holds many of us to this thing of ours."

I mentioned the "old days" as a reference to the parallels between old crewleaders and modern godfathers. There were always inactive members in every crew, and they would always stick around until they absolutely had to be eliminated. It is relevant to your points, because the core problem you see is that HQs are full of inactive members, and that inflates our observations of how "full" HQs are, and that inflated observation contributes to unnecessary expansions, slimming out our active participants over a thinner and thinner area.

I agree that this is happening. I disagree that it's a bad thing. The more modular and divided we are, the more localized everything becomes. Why do you think we ever implemented "sub crews" in the first place? Because we need localization. We don't want to all be in one big crew, we want to have our own little subsections. So that's what we got; cities divided into districts, divided into crews. The problem I see is that those divisions, like sub-crews, aren't actually independent entities. Sub-crews can't go to war with each other. Sub-crews can't start wars on their own. Sub-crews can't affiliate with other cities, or make deals with them.

"There have never been as many inactives as we saw just recently. When the man Jericho took the role of Godfather I heard a rumor he only had 9 active members in his 30 man crew. Based on the number incapable of finding a crew that died shortly after, I think that number was just about spot on and that is beyond disturbing. The problem with this is we've overly divided to fit the number of districts rather than taking the number of districts that fit the active populous. It isn't that you don't need division, it's that we've cut ourselves way too scarce. The moment we start treating districts as cities and expanding when needed (doing so by defining requirements for expansion) the more likely we are to see districts take to a more stable shape."

As long as we don't allow "bold" to mean something of independence, people will become less interested in being bold, less interested in ranking, less interested in sticking around. The more we dictate what people are supposed to do, the fewer people we will have. I agree with your observations and I agree that there's a problem, but not the problem you describe.

"Again I fundamentally disagree. Weak men lost the notion of independent and strong willed crew leaders, not the title itself. There are men and women like myself proving you can be interdependent (what a CL should be) by doing our own things who disprove the notion it's an issue with the value of CL and prove that the problem lies with people being put in there if you believe there isn't a strong independent presence."

This surprises me very little. This is a Godfather's wet dream; someone else coming up with a "great" idea to potentially solve a problem that has persisted for years. Except, you won't solve any problems, you'll just have fewer crews. That's literally all that this will do. It won't solve any inherent flaws in the structure of our world, any problems arising from those flaws, or even any symptoms of those problems. It will merely "look" nicer. If that's not the candy you were talking about, I don't know what is. 

"It surprises you very little that a CL just superseded the intended chain of command after it failed last time I brought it forward? Yes it's a well liked idea but a GF Council becoming active is a good sign that I haven't actually seen in a long time. You believe it won't solve anything, I believe it will. We don't know exactly what will happen, we just know there's a problem and if my idea fails the districts are still there so it would take a minimal effort to go back to the way things currently are. So unless you an actual idea to contribute yourself, you're likely just going to be ignored as a long-winded (nothing wrong with being long-winded in my eyes but a lot of people will ignore you for that) man criticizing without having put any efforts into solving the problem himself."

Your belief in just how relevant the Godfathers boosts are is vastly over rating it.

Sure, but that's irrelevant. The only thing the addition of districts did was allow for a greater number of godfathers and allow for the inter-district drug deals. If the Godfather boost has become negligible, wouldn't that make the prevalence of districts equally negligible? If Godfathers aren't stronger (gun-wise), wealthier (because you can earn more than your GF), or more politically savvy (which has nothing to do with districts), then what are we bitching about? Your first paragraph has proven how the districts have changed absolutely nothing in the landscape.

Plus, you're countering yourself. If the GF boost is so negligible, why are people gathering and keeping inactives for the sake of acquiring it? If it's so "easy," people shouldn't be hoarding inactives to get it. It's the source of the symptom you're describing; you can't say the GF boost isn't "all that" when it's the REASON people are doing what you don't like!

The increased number in political figures has actually done the opposite of what you're suggesting. More political figures has actually led to less moves because many at the top are worried they'll be attacked for looking aggressive, which leads to large groups forming that basically operate as one city anyways.

Yeah, except there were pussies a long time before districts came around. And the presence of districts only raised the stakes; it didn't make anyone more afraid to risk them. Have you ever heard the phrase "correlation doesn't imply causation?" Even if you could track some correlation between the presence of districts and "moves," the presence of a correlation doesn't mean one causes the other. If anything, I'd say just the opposite. The persistent lack of motivation to do anything of import led to a power "ceiling." And while everyone felt like they deserved their shot as a CL or GF, none of them had the balls to kill someone to make it happen. Then districts come along, which eliminated the zero-sum game of godfatherhood. Now everyone could be a Godfather!

This probably sounds like a strike against districts, but it's not. It's a strike against the cowardice to reach out and take what you want. As long as the attitude that "aggression is bad, motivation is bad, and survivalism is bad" persists, the number of districts holds no weight on political activity.

The only difference being that they have multiple people wearing the title of Godfather.

This actually sums up my point nicely. This actually is the only difference.

I believe the number of occupied districts should reflect the number of active players. The number of districts is no where near comparable to the number of active players and there were 6 added on when many families were filled with IA members. If you had been around or paying attention at all, you'd have noticed that with the rest of us.

Ok? The ratio of district to CL to active "player" (really pushing the OOC at this point) changed. That doesn't make it bad! That just means it changed. Having smaller crews isn't bad, and the only reason the IAs stick around is because having a fuller HQ is more rewarding; and that's not even what we're discussing here! You're too busy trying to change the aesthetics to realize what the source of your problem is; as long as we're rewarded for maintaining IAs, then the number of crews is irrelevant.

I want to be clear: I wouldn't mind if there were 50 districts and each only had a 10-man crew. That wouldn't be that insane to me, because the only thing that matters is what we do with the crews and the districts, not how many there are. And if the problem is the presence of inactives, then this entire discussion is pointless. Because that's not even what you're trying to change. You're trying to change what it looks like instead of changing what it is.

Your opinions on comparing crews to districts is also off, because I'm yet to hear anyone make that comparison but you. 

Except, they're almost exactly the same. I guarantee you that in nearly every district, the crews sharing that district also share hitsquads, IA lists, and crew "events." There is very little separation. I don't care if I'm the only one "making" that comparison, it's there whether I talk about it or not.

There are many lagging behind on the notion that being from the same home city means a lot, but there will always be people clasping to out of date ideas.

This is hilariously ironic, considering the nature of your position.

I believe the Godfather of a district should be what the old Godfathers used to be. I don't currently see it that way based on what's currently around me, I previously mentioned what I currently see but I believe there is potential for this to be done right and not overextending ourselves definitely helps with that.

Then your quarrel is with the Godfathers. They're the ones who can't separate themselves from each other and expanding whenever they can. And they were doing it this way before districts showed up. Frankly, I'm not even sure what you're talking about, because "how godfathers are" is defined solely by the existing godfathers. The gods changed the quantity of GFs; we changed the quality.

 I believe that structure has been maintained because of forced expansions and people not thinking and planning these things out. With slowed expansions we are more likely to see 75 active members in one district. A number that greatly promotes in house communication and team work, which is a major part of the social aspect that holds many of us to this thing of ours.

First of all, the social aspect is present regardless of districts. I interact with people outside my crew, district, and city all the time (I'm doing it right now!). The option to interact with those people has always been and will always be present, no matter how many crews or districts there are.

How does having seventy-five people in a district promote communication? A ten-man operation in a district would probably show better coordination and "teamwork" than a 75-man one. Plus, wouldn't it benefit us to have seven 10-man operations, so that those individual groups have to interact with each other if they want to get things done? Why do we have to have one large conglomerate district, when we can have small modular districts? The teamwork, communication, and social aspect are present regardless of what number you throw out.

There have never been as many inactives as we saw just recently. 

The moment we start treating districts as cities and expanding when needed (doing so by defining requirements for expansion) the more likely we are to see districts take to a more stable shape.

I want to ignore this paragraph entirely because it was addressed previously. If you feel so strongly about inactives in other crews; shoot them. If you don't feel so strongly, then leave them alone and let them get the "negligible" GF title.

Also, your little "expansion requirements" bullshit won't work. There will always be cities that can't fill their HQs because they aren't bloodline buddies with the "mainstream" crowd.  These requirements will do more harm than good.

Weak men lost the notion of independent and strong willed crew leaders, not the title itself. There are men and women like myself proving you can be interdependent (what a CL should be) by doing our own things who disprove the notion it's an issue with the value of CL and prove that the problem lies with people being put in there if you believe there isn't a strong independent presence.

Yeah; it was a cultural change. That's what this whole thing is about. I don't know what you mean by "interdependent" (I think you mean independent?), but if you think a CL is bad then take him out. I mean, are you really going to argue with another city's Godfather that they're guy isn't good enough to have his own crew? No. That conversation should not and will not take place. If you think they aren't measuring up, shoot the poor bastard. Otherwise, nothing will change. There's no way in hell any self-respecting Godfather will remove his OWN AUTH that HE PICKED because another city doesn't like it. And if a Godfather would do that, shoot the GF too. We don't need any more coward GFs.

We don't know exactly what will happen, we just know there's a problem and if my idea fails the districts are still there so it would take a minimal effort to go back to the way things currently are. So unless you an actual idea to contribute yourself, you're likely just going to be ignored as a long-winded (nothing wrong with being long-winded in my eyes but a lot of people will ignore you for that) man criticizing without having put any efforts into solving the problem himself.

I see your point here, and you're completely right. Something is better than nothing, and you will get no complaints from me about taking action to solve a problem. However, this isn't as great or as easy as you think it is. Here's why:

• You're going remove CLs who have had their auth for weeks, and assimilate the crewmembers in with people they don't know, and didn't want to work for in the first place. If you were to request my boss to step down as a CL, I would probably just let the protection order run out on me, because I picked a man to work for, and that's who I work for until I die.
• What if you're the first CL they pick to step down? Is your solution worth losing your HQ? Your crewmembers? The answer (I bloody well hope) is no. If any CL would actually step down voluntarily just because a guy in another city thinks you need less crews, I'd be furious. And if we are actually going down that road, where CLs forfeit their HQs for "the sake of the country," then I am out. This world is too far gone. I mean, what's the fucking point in authing someone who gives up their HQ for OTHER CITIES? And, not even to save those cities, but just to make those other cities feel better?!!? That's fucked up.
• Implementation is a bitch, and will result in a net loss of productivity and power in whatever city has to drop a boldie.

And if your plan is to set up requirements for future expansion instead of regulating existing expansions, then you'll still have a mess. Districts with recent auths and more popular leaders will be favored almost exclusively, and new cities will never EVER be able to expand unless more wars start showing up. Plus, we're fucking criminals. Are we really going to start implementing national rules on ourselves about how we conduct our businesses in our cities that have nothing to do with our business but just for aesthetic purposes? What kind of godfather forsakes his own ambitions or the ambitions of his men because someone two cities over doesn't like how it makes the numbers look?

What happens when a district expands to soon? You gonna clear out the whole district (and likely the city, for political reasons) for the sake of "thinning out the IAs"? If so, you might as well just keep reading:

You want my solution? Kill them. If you don't think a leader deserves his crew members or his HQ, then kill him. If we are really doing things for "the good of the (fuck's sake I hate this word) community," then why can't you shoot them, for the community? You solve two problems; one, people stop inflating their ranks with IAs because they'll get shot for it; and two, the homeless have to find a new place to work.

I know, I know, you want a peaceful solution where no one gets hurt, and you're not in any danger, and life can go on with everyone still exchanging smiley faces and happy birthday messages. Well, it doesn't. If you're going to enforce these "rules," you have to be prepared to die or kill for them. And if you're already prepared for that, why wait?

lronSight sighs,

"I'm not sure why you believe in pressing for a heated debate but you won't be getting one. If you want responses to your questions and ideas you'll reword that and apologize to anyone you might've offended. I'm not offended but I won't reward you with answers when you act like this. I'm out here answering your questions because I choose to, not because I should or have to so you'll pay me the respect of having a debate in a logical and calm manner without phrases like 'bitching' or continuing to falsely insist I want CLs removed to make way for my idea. My idea is to not move into the 8 open districts too quickly, to wait for the Crews to get enough active members to warrant the need for an expansion by setting standards and requirements for expanding into a new district. There's no need for removing any CLs to accomplish that."

I don't recall precisely where I pressed for a heated debate, as I'm just countering your thoughts with some of my own. If you have trouble with that, then the Streets probably isn't a good place to express yourself. I took quite a lot of time choosing my words, and I have no interest in modifying them. If you aren't offended, then I'm confused why you're so disinterested in countering my points. I'm also not entirely sure what "acting like this" means, because all I see is a rebuttal.

I am taking a contrary position to yours, therefore I gain nothing from your responses. I enjoy reading them, but you aren't "rewarding" anyone but yourself by furthering your position. Also, I fail to see how using the word "bitching" implies I'm not calm, when I'm simply describing what I see. If that offends you, which you claim it hasn't, then I'll apologize for using language not fit for a leader in the criminal underworld.

Plus, look at this:

I see your point here, and you're completely right. Something is better than nothing, and you will get no complaints from me about taking action to solve a problem. However, this isn't as great or as easy as you think it is.

How much more calm and respectful can I be? None of that was sarcasm, I actually do see your points. I'm starting to think you just looked for an excuse to reject my thoughts, or didn't read them altogether, which I could understand as it got a bit lengthy.

As for removing CLs, you are right in that you didn't say that. I did. If there are too many crewleaders, then there are really only two ways of dealing with that, and I listed both. Do you see the part where I started "And if your plan is to set up requirements for future expansion instead of regulating existing expansions, then you'll still have a mess"? I don't really know how that accuses you of wanting to remove CLs, merely that if you were doing one or the other that you would have the problems I listed. Plus, I intended to provide my own solution, and the part about "removing CLs" was merely a support for that. I had to explain why we couldn't remove CLs (peacefully) in order to explain why CLs should be eliminated instead, if we feel so strongly about this problem.

Districts basically just changed our world's potential ratio of godfathers to non-godfathers. And even then, it was a slight increase (at the time), as we had many more cities open. Even if that ratio doubled or tripled, I fail to see why that is innately bad. It seems like your abhorrence is more to change than to some "golden ratio" between leaders and non-leaders. And if there is some ideal ratio in your mind, you've neglected to share it, which I feel would crucially benefit your thoughts.

A slight increase at the time? Not as my ancestors journals recall it. By the time the May war came around, which wasn't all that long afterwards, if my recollections are correct, Philly and Detroit both had three Godfathers, New York had two and Chicago four. Considering that all of these cities had ONE Godfather before districts were a thing - as Las Vegas and Los Angeles had been shut since shortly after the fall of Godmother Innocence which, if I recall, was in the November, and New Orleans and Boston went when districts were introduced, with the residents of New Orleans being moved to New York - this is actually quite a substantial increase in the number of Godfathers. Y'know, considering that by the time the May war happened, there were as many Godfathers in one single city as there were in total before districts. 

That IS innately bad. You can fail to see it as much as you like, but that reflects more upon you than it does upon my point.

The population of our world did not change notably as far as the journals of my ancestors remember, which, in my opinion, would have been the only reasonable explanation for the number of possible Godfathers in our world exploding. Instead, maximum crew sizes were reduced by the Gods. Then in the hunt for more and more people reaching the rank of Godfather, leaders started to be more tolerant of inactive members than I remember them being beforehand - all for the sake of reaching goals for Godfather and further expansion. This limitless expansion has quite noticeably driven the standards required for a person to become a leader or a Godfather down. It's basically been reduced from an honor from a Godfather to "live long enough and we'll get around to you eventually" arrangement in too many cases. It's taken crew leader down from "key part of the district" to "somewhere to put long asleep members so that my district looks bigger and tougher". 

There are shitty leaders. There have always been shitty leaders. However, in times past, there has been some force which judges these men and women and held them to a higher standard. This force has long since departed, and now steaming piles of shit like TheTripleDeuce manage to get Godfather right under everyone's noses. I would contend that we need more judgment.

Yes, we do need forces of judgement. But we don't have those now, because why risk bringing shit to your doorstep when you can just leave these people to be fools elsewhere, unless they do start to become an issue for you? We have ridiculous amount of districts even now. We all know that pressure is on the Godfather's to expand further, otherwise, according to the words of many of them, they wouldn't be doing it. Why empty districts if you do not absolutely HAVE to, when you still have tons more to fill? All districts has done is create tons of space to fill and forced those under pressure to fill them to allow things they would not previously, such as rampant inactivity and dis-interest by those in Godfather spots when they would easily have been killable for many.

Hell, it isn't even THAT long ago that the Gods had a system in place that FORCED the filling of new districts within a fortnight of leadership being cleared out, lest anyone who fired a shot face supercharged Durden-esque creatures. That system might be gone but the culture it created takes longer to go.

I'm sad that you didn't name names, frankly. If you want to show us what a bad leader is and why they shouldn't be a leader, do it. Hiding behind "everyone can name one or two people," accomplishes absolutely nothing. If you call someone out, they either change or die. Either way, you have one less shitty leader.

Okay, so, you want me to start naming names on which leaders are shite, out here in the streets? Either that's a weak attempt at stirring shit, and is laughable, or you're genuinely stupid enough to think that I'm going to do that. Because, honestly, do you see doing that achieving anything other than causing trouble and/or death for myself and even, if things went far enough, for my district? You think I should put my Godfather in a shitty position because you want a few examples? 

You do not need examples. Enough people have gone out of their way to highlight why they are bad leaders, all you have to do is sit back and watch them do it. 

If you really think that all that happens when you call someone out is that they change or they die, I invite you to do it. They'll likely be in your crew leader/Godfather's ear demanding your life faster than you can say "That was a really stupid thing to do". 

The existence of the GFC creates a bad situation. The idea that counter-intuitive top-down culture changes could be successful is not only infeasible, but idiotic. Why would anyone "strive" to be a member of a council that has to balance the "community" with their own personal interests? Why should anyone work hard to forfeit their work in exchange for other people's ideas? I think it's cowardice. People have to "band together for the community" or their reputation is shot to shit. They're painted as "selfish," "overly-competitive," or "assholes," when they're doing precisely what we came here to do (OOC: HAVE FUN).

I personally wouldn't strive to be a Godfather to start with. But hey ho, moving on.

Umm, I'm gonna save my breath on asking a Godfather. I already know what that "pressure" is, and it's the pressure of a group of people on the verge of godfatherhood with no place to shine.

As far as I am aware, that is not the only place this pressure comes from. You save your breath all you like, but you're going to keep on and on missing where the real pressure is coming from and I'm not going to be the one to sit here and explain it slowly to you.

This is the cowardice. You're afraid to demand sacrifice, and instead will go to the Gods to make your changes for you. If you feel strongly enough about something to request a change to how our world works, won't you first try to change it yourself? You'd get a lot more respect doing it that way, that's for sure. Nobody whined their way to the top (disclaimer: this statement could be totally false. I'm actually pretty sure a number of people have whined their way to the top, and it sickens me). 

Cowardice? Strong words. The Gods created this situation. They brought districts into our world. In my opinion, districts have done little good for our world and our way of life. So yes, as the Gods GIVETH the districts, I do believe that the Gods are the ones who should TAKETH the districts. Y'know, to solve the problem that districts created! 

I've got time though: Please explain to me how my belief that districts cannot work well with our way of life, especially in comparison to our way of life before districts, is cowardice.

I'll reiterate again. I do not believe districts can work in any form. Even with one Godfather per city with districts, I still feel as though they'd be bad for our world. I believe they should be removed from our world. The Gods most certainly do not have to listen to me, but I'd hope that I've got the freedom to express the opinion that that would be the best end to them. 

Please explain to me what I am personally supposed to do to make things the way I want them, with the above considered. Seriously. I'm all ears.  

If there's a way to acquire power in large amounts that's "socially acceptable," people are going to jump at that chance INSTANTLY. The disdain of acquiring power in any other way has been met with an absurd amount of hostility. The "culture" wasn't created by the Gods, it was here long before districts were. Look at wartime auths. Look at rogues. People do the "wrong" thing for the sake of power all the time. This isn't a new culture, it's the same culture with deeper pockets.

They aren't really acquiring power though, on the whole. Most people are taking the status for the sake of taking the status. But their power on the whole is over piles of sleeping bodies. Whereas expansion in the past would end up requiring people to war for the space, it no longer does. Like I've already said though, or population doesn't seem to have gotten bigger. So basically we just have hordes of bold suits who rule over little or nothing. From the observations of my bloodline, that IS a culture problem that has become huge since districts have been part of our world.

I fail to see the logic in this point. You've once again neglected to mention your golden ratio of leaders to non-leaders, because otherwise you're just saying that 2 is better than 3 because it used to be 2 and now it's 3. There's no thought process, you're just drawing an opinion from an observation and portraying it as some kind of systemic theory. You just don't like it; there isn't anything inherently wrong about having this many leaders or districts. You're dragging your feet through change for reasons you can't even vocalize.

I fail to see the logic in your point, other than the fact that you dislike my point. There IS something inherently wrong with having this many leaders and this many districts when the population of our world is as small as it is. There is no golden ratio of leaders to non-leaders, but there doesn't HAVE to be a golden ratio to say that the way things are at the moment IS a problem.  

Seriously, if you can't see any way in which having ridiculous amounts of areas for expansion and pressure from elsewhere to expand into them, with crew leaders having half active at best crews is a problem, I'm done debating with you, because it'd be like trying to reason with a five year old with his eyes shut and hands over his ears yelling. If you can't see that this is an issue, you're trying to not see it. If you DO see it, then you'd see logic in my point. Unless you simply enjoy attempting to condescending. Maybe it's an ego thing, I dunno. 

I am dragging my feet on districts for many reasons, which basically comes back into one reason: they are not working, and nor are the systems around them. My line has spent longer living in a world with districts than we did without and to us, one system worked, the other never has. Do the maths: there's a reason I bother to speak up on this issue. 

Why is this ideal? You've neglected the entirety of your argument. Plus, we aren't taking a backseat to the Gods. The action is yours, remember? This life, this world, is what you make of it. It's an elaborate and beautiful sandbox. It's time we stop asking for different sandcastle molds and start making sandcastles.

Am I really going to have to explain such a basic point? Really? Ah, fine. It's an ideal to me, because I feel as though that would be the best and most enjoyable way for our way of life to continue. The ideal outcome to me, is that that is what happens. 

And yes, we are. Like I've already said, the Gods did this and to me, the Gods are the only ones who truly have the power to undo it. 

My line hasn't had issues with making something with our time since districts came in - quite the opposite. We've long said we'd never have had an auth to our name under cities and I still don't think we would. This isn't about personal gain.

You might think it's a beautiful sandbox, but to me, adding districts to the old sandbox was pretty much like adding a seagull with diarrhea to the patch of sky above the sandbox. I still want to enjoy the sandbox, but I'll do what I can to make that seagull fuck off to make the sandbox what it once was. 

Also, if you don't want so many leaders, kill some.

Oh okay, be right back, just gonna go kill some leaders. Fuck, if only I'd realized that things were THAT SIMPLE!!!

Maria rolls her eyes. 

We don't have to immediately go out and annihilate a ton of leaders. Not needed, not the point, not even the best way to move forward. The best way to move forward, in my opinion, is for the Godfathers to slow down the authing: The Gods have said that the control is all in the hands of the community now, so lets take advantage of that. If it were down to me, I'd say clear the sleeping bodies gathering dust from every crew, and keep on top of that situation rather than allowing numbers to accumulate for the sake of numbers. I'd ask that they require each person to have some form of presence to our world - be it on the streets or in the coffee shops, to stop this thing where people get authed and everyone goes, "Eh? Who the fuck is that?". A wise man once told my first ancestor in this world that to succeed, she should have either a street presence or a coffee shop one, and both if she could. I hold those words still in high regard. I truly believe that we should not be seeing leaders only at times of war and auth. If we had clearer standards of expectation I think we'd actually see less recycled auths, not more. 

There are a LOT of ways to solve this problem, and decreasing the number of districts will accomplish nothing. It'll be an aesthetic appeal for old souls, and nothing more.

I'm not particularly an old soul, though. Like I said, my line has been here far longer with districts than without. We've been seeing where the chips have fallen and this discussion is still one that comes up fairly often. So something needs to happen. Why not this?

That IS innately bad. You can fail to see it as much as you like, but that reflects more upon you than it does upon my point.

What negative effect does it contribute? Why is 8 godfathers innately worse than 4 godfathers? I'm failing to see it because you won't tell me.

Then in the hunt for more and more people reaching the rank of Godfather, leaders started to be more tolerant of inactive members than I remember them being beforehand - all for the sake of reaching goals for Godfather and further expansion.

There have never been any rules restricting the amount of inactives you can have in your crew. If I recall anything from years ago, it's that people were killing off their own members too quickly. There was no "toleration" because no one perceived a problem. There was an incentive to retain them, so they were retained. That's all that changed.

This limitless expansion has quite noticeably driven the standards required for a person to become a leader or a Godfather down. It's basically been reduced from an honor from a Godfather to "live long enough and we'll get around to you eventually" arrangement in too many cases. It's taken crew leader down from "key part of the district" to "somewhere to put long asleep members so that my district looks bigger and tougher". 

I agree with this observation, and I agree that it's a problem. But I don't think that it's because of "limitless expansion." I think the standards were dropping before districts were around.

 Yes, we do need forces of judgement. But we don't have those now, because why risk bringing shit to your doorstep when you can just leave these people to be fools elsewhere, unless they do start to become an issue for you?

This is literally the crux of my argument. If you make regulations and restrictions, you have to enforce them. If you have to enforce them, then you have to threaten punishment against people who aren't "an issue for you," they just have a few more IAs in their crew than you prefer.

All districts has done is create tons of space to fill and forced those under pressure to fill them to allow things they would not previously, such as rampant inactivity and dis-interest by those in Godfather spots when they would easily have been killable for many.

Look, if Godfathers can't handle the pressure of being a Godfather, then maybe they shouldn't be one. If you can't balance what you think you should do with what everyone is pressuring you to do, then maybe you shouldn't be a leader. The fact that people can pressure Godfathers into doing something they disagree with is an issue entirely, and you should be more focused on the spineless Godfathers than the space they're filling. The presence of space doesn't force Godfathers to do anything. They choose to fill it. That's literally the entire importance of being a leader; making good judgments, decisions, and acting on those judgments.

Hell, it isn't even THAT long ago that the Gods had a system in place that FORCED the filling of new districts within a fortnight of leadership being cleared out, lest anyone who fired a shot face supercharged Durden-esque creatures. That system might be gone but the culture it created takes longer to go.

I am familiar with this system, but as I recall it required a city to grow to a certain capacity before these events occurred. Plus, most cities saw these as gifts from the Gods, as they could train up on the plethora of bodyguards. Whether or not they filled the district afterwards is, once again, a choice they made. If they can't handle making decisions, they shouldn't be Godfathers.

If you really think that all that happens when you call someone out is that they change or they die, I invite you to do it. They'll likely be in your crew leader/Godfather's ear demanding your life faster than you can say "That was a really stupid thing to do". 

You're right. But how is "everyone knows someone who's a shitty leader" any better? You're ready to say shitty leaders exist and that they shouldn't be leaders, but dreadfully afraid of saying or doing anything more. So why even bring it up?

Cowardice? Strong words. The Gods created this situation. They brought districts into our world. In my opinion, districts have done little good for our world and our way of life. So yes, as the Gods GIVETH the districts, I do believe that the Gods are the ones who should TAKETH the districts. Y'know, to solve the problem that districts created! 

The gods made a space. How it was filled/managed was entirely up to us. "Districts" don't "do good." You know why? Because they're just space! Empty space doesn't "do good." It doesn't "do" anything. It's entirely what you make of it, and what was made of was piss poor. Whether there's 4 godfathers or 10, you'll still have the same problems. At the end of the day, we made the choices that got us here, not the Gods.

I've got time though: Please explain to me how my belief that districts cannot work well with our way of life, especially in comparison to our way of life before districts, is cowardice.

My claim was that the demand for change from the Gods instead of the demand for change from other members of our world is cowardly. Asking for the Gods to fix something we could do ourselves is cowardly. If you feel so strongly about it that you think the Gods should change it for you, change it yourself. I'm glad you have time, because you're gonna be waiting on the Gods for a long time.

I'll reiterate again. I do not believe districts can work in any form. Even with one Godfather per city with districts, I still feel as though they'd be bad for our world. I believe they should be removed from our world. The Gods most certainly do not have to listen to me, but I'd hope that I've got the freedom to express the opinion that that would be the best end to them. 

You've still not provided a single negative consequence of the districts, you've just repeated yourself. A lot. Districts CAN work and HAVE worked since their inception. Our world didn't just shut down and fall off a cliff; we kept going. We kept showing up to work, even if it took a subway ride to get there.

Please explain to me what I am personally supposed to do to make things the way I want them, with the above considered. Seriously. I'm all ears. 

Please explain how districts negatively impact our world, then I'll get back to you. 

So basically we just have hordes of bold suits who rule over little or nothing. From the observations of my bloodline, that IS a culture problem that has become huge since districts have been part of our world.

Empty HQs are a problem, but I don't see any truly empty HQs. Plus, an empty HQ is its own detriment; the HQ boost is non-existent, very little money flows to that CL, and he'll have fewer men to protect him if war comes. Why do we need to make it even more painful to have fewer members? It's already a problem on itself.

Seriously, if you can't see any way in which having ridiculous amounts of areas for expansion and pressure from elsewhere to expand into them, with crew leaders having half active at best crews is a problem, I'm done debating with you, because it'd be like trying to reason with a five year old with his eyes shut and hands over his ears yelling.

Empty space isn't a problem. There could be 50 open districts, and if we chose not to fill them, then we wouldn't. There's no inherently negative consequence of having empty space available. As for the IAs, let me explain why I find it silly:

You want leaders, owners of HQs and their respective boosts, to reduce the strength of said boost and limit their capacity to progress as mobsters. Asking a man (or woman) to deliberately reduce their strength for the sake of aesthetics is insulting, frankly. If I were a crewleader, I wouldn't deliberately reduce my strength because someone two cities over doesn't like the fact that my HQ has a few IAs. That's why I find it unfeasible, nevermind the fact that there's nothing wrong with IAs in the first place. They're already a detriment since they don't earn, all they contribute is to the HQ boost (if they're "loyal" IAs at all). I fail to see why we need to strip this away from leaders who are clearly struggling to fill their HQ in the first place (and so therefore need the IAs to remain competitive).

I am dragging my feet on districts for many reasons, which basically comes back into one reason: they are not working, and nor are the systems around them. My line has spent longer living in a world with districts than we did without and to us, one system worked, the other never has. Do the maths: there's a reason I bother to speak up on this issue. 

What "isn't working"? What's missing? The only difference is an increase in Godfathers. And even if the "average quality" of Godfather has declined? It's not like anyone's going to do anything about it. As long as they don't fuck up, the shitty godfathers will stay living just like the good ones.

It's an ideal to me, because I feel as though that would be the best and most enjoyable way for our way of life to continue. The ideal outcome to me, is that that is what happens. 

Tell me why it is joyous for you to have fewer godfathers. All I see is desperate nostalgia. The reason I keep asking for "reasons," is because you haven't given me a negative consequence of districts or the number of godfathers.

I'm actually not going to keep reading until you answer me, because it's remarkably frustrating. I'm looking for negative consequences like: "people make less money," "people have less kills," or "people aren't willing to work as hard." Give me an actual negative effect that districts (the available space, not the choices we made with them) have had. I don't see any. What I've heard so far is:

• More godfathers
  • If more godfathers is bad, then that implies there's some negative feature of having any godfather at all. As in, 3 warts are bad, so 6 warts is worse. But all warts are bad, which causes the "worse." I don't see godfathers as inherently negative, so I don't see additional ones as negative either.
• shitty godfathers
  • We've had shitty leaders before districts, but even if we assert that leadership as a whole has declined since the inception of districts, who cares? Someone in power is authing these shitty godfathers/leaders, and no one is doing anything to slow them or stop them. Which begs the question whether or not they're shitty at all, since they're alive and many aren't.
• proportion of crews to members
  • This "problem" is somewhat independent to districts, though I see why the need to fill districts necessarily increases the number of crews. I think there's nothing wrong with small crews. This goes back to the wart analogy. If you think that a 5-man crew is a bad thing, then at some point every crew was a bad thing. If a crew persistently only has 5 men, then it's their own loss. The detriment is already apparent within the system before we put any additional rules on them. The "bad" part of having a small crew is having a small crew. Which, usually encourages the crew to grow so that they have more manpower/money/kills/power.

These are the consequences I observe from having districts, and I don't see them as negative.