I would like to talk about something that's been on my nerves for a while, and that is honor and what it means to be loyal to your family as well as your Godfather. 

You come into this world with nothing but a name and maybe whatever connections your parents had when they passed, so you are owed NOTHING. You need protection to stay alive so you join a family right? When you join a family you agree to their rules (omerta being one of the biggest) as well you are pledging your loyalty in return for their protection as well as resources.  As we established you have neither of these things. As you are there you grow with your family and you earn for them or hit for them and you want to be on their hitlists to carry out jobs for them and become a better marksman. If you're lucky enough, maybe they'll deem you're worthy of protection and get you some bodyguards because you've shown them something. But before we get there one very important thing happens, and that is you become a made man. A member of their inner circle, someone who the family trusts and the second you become a made man that means you live and die for your family, because if you're not willing to do that then you have no business accepting that promotion.

Now on to the part that has been eating me up and that has had me more vocal than usual in the streets which is: People complaining about dying along with their city. Now I'm going to clarify. You can complain you are dead and that the reasons given suck or whatever, however I do not believe you should complain for going down with your family, or Godfather. You have sworn your life for these people, you signed their rules, took a position in their family that does not mean at the first sign of trouble you get a free pass. You leave in a body bag unless they give you permission otherwise. The part that kind of drives me the most insane is this is an honor! You should be honored to go down fighting or not even be given the chance to jump sides because that means the otherside sees you as someone loyal or who would go down fighting with their family!

Maybe I'm being to harsh and cynical, but I would love to hear others opinions on this.

i totally agree, once your in your in, i believe the saying some people use is "blood in blood out" while i must admit ive seen situations where some people join a family never read the rules never vouch anything and get their button and then jump ships during a war and this disturbs me the most

there is so many options now for new gangsters hitting the streets to choose who and where they would like to go to and with

these people choose to take you in give you shelter and essentially raise you, even before someone gets their button i think honor should play a large part in dying with your family and city because they did so much for you

no-one is innocent in this way of life we are all criminals , if you want to jump ship when your crew leader or godfather die then shame on you thats a spit in the face to your godfather and crewleader and district and even city

I love this speech. My line has always hated the fact that people could jump ship and save themselves. I really wish this would never even be an option.

As you said, once you are in, you are in. There should be no switching sides, no complaining about death. A choice is made once you accept an invite into a family. Maybe if you didn't want to die with that family you should have done a bit more research into the type of leader and home you were being given.

I strongly believe more thugs and gangsters would take the time to discuss with leaders, hands or even potential sponsors about their families. Their work styles and what they are specifically looking for. See if it fits with what they wish to grow into or learn from.

This may not mean much coming from someone as young in ranks as I but I have a strong sense of loyalty even at this particular time in my criminal career.

Having listened to Malcom's speech, Curtis walked up to the man and shook him warmly by the hand.

"Malcom. Well said man! This is something I think a lot of us will agree with. Perhaps its a generational thing, times change and all that but I have always experienced the same thing. You take an oath. An oath! You stand there with the saint burning your palm, surrounded by your boss and the higher ranked members of your family and they open the books to you, make you a member, they take you inside. At that moment the only certainly in your life becomes the end of it. You know, no matter what comes or goes, you will die in service of this family that has made you. So it should always be. 

There may be arguments and disagreements and political differences and business conflicts and there may be a million other things to fall out over during the course of your life but the family bond remains. You work, live, fight and die together in defense of that bond. That is honor and there is no more noble a death in this thing of ours."

BCp was taking a common stroll on the streets one afternoon, when he spots Mr.Reynolds stat to talk. Pulling out a smoke, BCP listens and nods and heres Triple speaks to which he agrees. Zeph also says some wise things regarding this topic and BCP takes a long swig from hois flask and a deep drag from his cig and he approaches the milkcrate that was being used to hold the speakers.

Hello all. Its not often I come out and speak a lot when some of these speeches are going on, but I figured I'd drop my logic on this topic as many many people seem to forget things. First I gotta agree here with Malcom. Its sad that people say they are loyal, get the buttons and gain the trust of the Cl' GF's and citys only to basically throw it back into their face one of two ways. You took the oath, sat there looked pretty but get made to feel special. All that is asked id you fight for you people. Now a great many do, and I commend those ones. But a great many do not. They wanna hide and hope to get a spot elsewhere, or even worse run to the other side before its even over trying to save their own ass.

Now sometimes its out of their control, but you signed on to give all to this  or that family. So honor, fight til the death and be happy you did what you could. Leave a note for your family and enjoy your rest.

That brings me to my second one. Why complain your father/mother/sister/uncle or whoever died. This isn't a fucking tea party. Its mafia, its the way of the life. If you cannot accept a death, then pack your bags, jump on a boat and leave our shores for good. This isn't for little babies that lost their fucking lollipop, this is about life and death. Accept it and move the fuck on. Take honor in the fact they wanted your line dead and go on.

BCP takes another deep drag and outs his cig out.

Look at it this way, we all gonna die someday. You can die for what you stood up for and with the people you called family and be proud in that. Or you can cry like a bitch that it seems you are for not excepting that its the way of our life.Or worse yet, betray the ones who put faith in ya to save a worthless piece of shit that has zero vaules for how this is and be happy they lived through it. Which normally gets them killed not long afterwards a good chunk of the time.

BCP steps off the milk crate and kicks it into the street cursing as he heads to the bar.

I believe before you can go on telling people how they should and shouldn't react you have to take the time to sit down and understand the certain and specific situations on why and how people are reacting to different things. 

Let's take the whole jumping ship thing for example. Over the many generations I have always tried to understand the why rather than the how. The how being a number of things really, did the person run and hide until the war was over? Did the person see themselves on the losing side and switched? Did the person suicide without a fight? Did the person wait for their crewleader to die and then join someone not affiliated with the war? Plus more that I am struggling to come up with right now. The why is the reason why a person might consider or actually do any of these things. Over the last few days from sitting just out of sight but with in ear shot of certain conversations going on in the streets there is one major thing I picked up on. Something to the extent of "I had loyalty to my crewleader but we all died for the Godfathers mistakes." From that I can only take that the person who died has a son complaining because they weren't loyal to the Godfather but rather only loyal to the crewleader and friends, apparently. Yeah... I still don't get it either. Here is how I see it, how I think it should work. You find yourself a crewleader at the beginning. This crewleader pays upwards of $70,000,000 to help protect you in the way of HQ fortifications. Not only that but this person also gives you a structure to follow, a meaning to get out of bed in the morning. Think about that one, we've all seen those unemployed bums doing fuck all with their lives and just spending all day sitting in their bedroom jerking it. They give us a family and friends to get to know, interact with and forge a meaning to our existence. Then they give us progression and status. You form a loyalty and respect for your crewleader and you progress even further.

Now for most people, it seems to stop there. For what ever reason I have no freaking idea. People seem to lose sight of the fact that you are not just a member of a family but rather you are a cog in the greater machine that is your district. A district that may hold a couple of crews and a Godfather. So remember, everything that I had mentioned before, your crewleader has already been there and done it all under your current Godfather. Your Godfather has then seen fit to give your crewleader the amazing opportunity to set up their own crew and repeat the process with new and upcoming people. One of which could be you. So loyalty should be given not only to your 'friends' or your crewleader. It should be given right up to the top of your districts structure. Regardless of how you personally feel about the person. Loyalty some of you will correctly believe is earned and not given. As far as I am concerned, anyone who has gone through that entire process and then seen fit to auth my current crewleader has earned that loyalty. If you can't bring yourself to be loyal to your Godfather as well as your crewleader, then you're in the wrong damn district and should consider your options. 

As far as being loyal to your 'friends' over others in your crew or district, get the fuck out and never come back. A district that takes you in, looks after you and helps you to progress, with in a family deserves your loyalty more than any friend. Now i'm not saying you should hold no loyalty to your friends, because that is just stupid. What I am saying though is when the time comes where you have to make a choice, it shouldn't even be a question. I'll use an example here... I consider TyrionLannister to be a good good friend of mine and vice versa, however I know for a fact that if it ever came down to it and it was him or my family, I would shoot him in the face and I know for a fact he would do the same in the same situation. It's a matter of loyalty and honour. 

So that is the why, and I still really don't understand it. 

I don't think the case is as cut and dry as it's made out to be.

Over the years of reading my parent's journals and coming across discussions that sound remarkably similar to this one, I've come to view the classic, conservative concept of crew loyalty à la leaving-in-a-body-bag as contrived; people are always keen to point out that greed and the desire for control essentially drive the vast majority of decisions in this life, but a lot of those same people, remarkably, are absent the second this topic - especially when it involves one's own life and potential death - is brought up.

Motivation for reason of self-preservation will always be a factor in someone's decision making no matter how often this topic is brought up, and with the mobsters of today easily working and being more productive than the previous generations that we see as our heyday, it'll become more prevalent. I'm happy to take a bullet for my leader because I've made a choice to, but I don't expect for a second that someone else should as well unless they decide to make that decision for themselves.  You can call it cowardice or disloyalty, but the grave makes no distinction between those who sacrifice themselves and those who choose otherwise.   Your loyalty to a leader should go as far as your relationship went with them.

Bonafide loyalty and someone's view of it aside, the decision should rightfully and solely rest with the parties involved.  I think that unless you, personally, have an investment whose outcome will be significantly affected with their decision to stay or leave, it should be neither your concern nor your business.

"There is another side to that though. A person can take a longer term view of how their line will be treated and considered. The way a person dies can say an awful lot about them. For example..."

Curtis took a quick nip from his flask before continuing.

"There was a war, several years ago now, a generally standard affair with the aggressor getting the jump on their opponents and taking out the vast majority of opposition immediately. There was the usual chaos and scattering. People ran and hid, they were noted. People tried to bargain for their lives, they were noted and a lot were helped via aggressor imposed protection orders. As the dust was settling there was one individual still fighting alone on behalf of the opposition. Lower ranked than the main targets she had escaped the main waves of shots and taken stock of her situation. Her decision was very different, she elected to fight.

Against all the odds and the collective efforts of a few cities, this woman remained alive nearly three days. All the time staying active and taking out whatever targets she could find and hit. She had been largely unknown to most of the collective before that point but by the time she was eventually killed she had gained an enormous amount of respect from all of us. A usually quiet individual who had been a background figure in the community she now had a wide rage of doors, support and conversations open to her because of the decision she made and the bloody minded fortitude she displayed in holding on to it. LadyFighter's short term decision increased her bloodline's standing no end and she stands, quite rightly, now as a fine respected Crew Leader in New York. 

Choosing how you die can be massively influential to the watching world."

Another fine topic gracing our streets and obviously triggered by recent events. I always understood the frustration at losing a loved one I understand that some people need to vent about it but for me the streets are never the right place, the reason being is that it has a direct impact on how that district is remembered, as I will be honest when a lot of people come out moaning on the streets it makes me think the right decision has been made after all this is the mafia we don't hold hands and sing songs. It is a cut throat business and if you are worried or are going to complain about death go and find another business as this isn't for you.

Now jumping ship has always happened, reading through my journals there have been some very high ranking members and very notable bloodlines that have done it. I am sure they all have their reasons but to me when I join I am there for life regardless. 

I was reading during one war when my ancestor was a RH to a GF who had been killed was approached to move to the aggressor, his gun was still in training and had only just reached made, his response was I will die with my city, he didn't get a shot off. Another instance some friends of my bloodline were attacking the city that my bloodline was a CL in. They asked them to turn their back on the GF and my bloodline would have the city. Needless to say my ancestor died with the city. When it comes to this my bloodline is very black and white. Curtis makes the best point about LadyFighter's bloodline when something like that happens the world stands up and thinks that was something special.

Polica there will always be people that look after themselves but that isn't the way the mafia works, each family should drink together, crime together and die together you look after each other not head in the other direction when bullets start flying. The other thing to think about is this when someone does jump ship during a war, who is to say they won't do it again if the war was to head in their direction. How could a leader trust that they would stand by their side? Realistically they couldn't and there would always be that element of doubt with them.

I do find it quite interesting how everyone seems to express a congenial agreement over the normative concept of dying with your city; there is rarely dissent made towards this ideology, when discussed in theory. This includes dying with your alliances, however far they may reach across city lines.

Yet when it happens time and time again, people come to bitch and moan at these 'transgressions' when it is really just a fairly rudimentary thing.

And so, while resurrecting such a speech puts me in the company of a group of mobsters long passed, it does prove the point that these occurrences are cyclical and sometimes we are the beneficiaries while other times we are not. It never ceases to change, making these speeches timeless and applicable at any time, really.

Basically, we are always talking about the same things.

Whoreable listens for a moment, purses her lips and shakes her head from side to side before she speaks.

My observation has been that there seems to be more bitching about bitching than actual bitching.

Yeah, what he said!

Points to TWENTYCHARACTERLIMIT

And as for what the respectable Whoreable says, I'd have to agree that it does seem like that right now because there have been quite a few comments about bitching lately, but I assure you that it's not true.  There are far more people that bitch about their ancestors dying than you think.  

And let's not talk about people bitching about dying.  That would just be silly.  they can't bitch about dying.  They're dead.

Now.  I do love this discussion about honor and loyalty.  Unlike many others, I entered this world alone.   I did not have my father to rely on, or his allies.  So, I have my family and my city.  So, therefore, they get my loyalty.  And my honor.  It is, indeed, my honor, to serve my family and my city.  Isn't that how it should be?  If there is a war, I will fight for my family and my city, and for whoever else my city and my family tell me to fight for, and that's it.  

Jump ship?  What the hell is that?  I can only see very few reasons to leave a family.  You are joining a brother/sister crew or allie crew with your leader's authorization and blessing as an upper structure member, or you die.  Are there any other ways?

Whoreable - I totally agree - Let's go have a whiskey in the speakeasy, and leave the men to their speeches. 

Wade watched as missniki approached, listened intently, then smiled.  He shook his head and looked around for the nearest speakeasy, then back to niki.  

Um, whiskey?  I like whiskey.  

* tips hat * 

Whorable I would like to know where your observations are made from? There is a conversation that drew over 1000 interested onlookers complete with bitching and a side of nonsense. 

Loyalty is fickle, I can remember in my cousins side of the families journals reading about their loyalty to a leader. Attacking your family and then upon another leader falling turning coat and siding with your family. So what loyalty was shown there? Asking your family to fight against another and then after some of your very own soldiers fall in that fight, siding with those that spilled your blood? 

Loyalty is about more than accepting that you won't act like a troglodyte and do something to put the family at risk. It is a two way street, if I am expected to be loyal, I expect that loyalty to be met. If it is not, why should I pledge my loyalty only to have it abused and spat on?  On top of that lets address the issue of how far loyalty extends. Lets say the following: 

Leader A is friends with and has some loyalty to Leader B 

Member A is loyal to Leader A NOT Leader B. So if a dispute arises between members of A and B, as a loyal member to A I would expect my leader to repay that loyalty regardless of his back alley handshakes with Leader B.  On the same token, if I have a long time family friend in Family B and we end up having to hit the mattresses I would be expected to kill that family friend because of my loyalty to my leader. 

See it is the above that gets murky and it really should not be. 

*Sips from his flask*

Whoreable reaches into her purse and takes out her deep red lipstick and quickly applies it to her lips before she speaks.

Missniki, that sounds like a wonderful idea. They have two of my favorite things in every speakeasy... 

Fine whiskey and men of few words with rather large wallets.

It's completely up to you if you want Wade to join us, although he would make for some delicious arm candy.

Someone speaks just as they are about to leave. Whoreable turns her head in the direction of Money-B as she lets out a sigh.

Mr. Money-B my observation is that this conversation has been going on for a year now. My opinion is that I'd hardly call eight initial responses, 284 onlookers and seven additional responses one year later, two of which that are mine, anything of significance. I'm sure there are conversations all over the streets but my response was to this particular conversation on this particular street corner.

* hits his head with his hand * 

I thought something smelt a little off, given the general time I didn't even look to see how long it had been since people had showered ( old this convo was) 

* Looks at flask * 

Maybe I need to check the content of this more often, it might be too strong

Dungster was making his way to get some neutral dungs by Mew and Mudkip at The Zoo when he bumped in several numbers of people walking in and out from a bunch of crowd. He walked closer to check whats the fuss about and listened to everyones opinion. He kept his mouth shut and had his own opinion closed in his mind.

When everybody stayed at mute, a thick smoke was released by his Gas mask creating a hazy scene. He made his way and slipped a piece of paper with a note at MalcomReynolds pocket.  

"A boy can learn a lot from a dog: obedience, loyalty, and the importance of turning around three times before lying down. If yo' not loyal to yo' Family, yo' can get by fo' a while, but eventually yo' will need to rely on their loyalty to yo', and it just won't be there. Just a friendly reminder ma friend, LOYALTY ONLY EXISTS WHEN YO' WATCH YO' BACK."

The message end with:

-Dante Rumore

at the bottom-right of the paper.

Hate to break it to you, Dungster, but you just slipped a note into the pocket of a corpse. Not sure how you even got past that smell.

TWENTYCHARACTERLIMIT hands the poor guy some hand sanitizer.

"Good God!"

Dungster reached for the sanitizer as fast as he could. He then poured it all over his arms and exhaled unrelievedly after rubbing it furiously until his hands turn red.

"Can't let those precious dungs get infected!" *sigh* "Alright! Mi owe yo one good sir!"

Dungster turned and made his way walking like a marching band on a Sunday morning.