Be the change that you want to see in the world. - Gandhi

I see no reason this cannot relate to how we conduct ourselves within "this thing of ours". Now hold on, before you assume that I am about to preach about peace and love. Fuck that. I'm here to speak on respect, and how it could be shown, or how it SHOULD be shown, to the upper structure and even to those that outrank you. They have made their bones. They have earned their position.

I have witnessed many ways to disagree or discuss opposing opinions without resorting to disrespect, and as much as you may not like someone, this respect should be afforded throughout their life, and into their funeral. 

BUT

I have also witnessed MANY times where mere associates have openly disrespected ranking members, even Godfathers, and have been not only tolerated, but have been allowed to continue pushing buttons until crews and even families have been split.

I know this is a sensitive subject, but I'd certainly love to hear people's opinions, and I feel strongly that this issue may be the first step to making ranks mean something again.

There are two sides to this though. There is the the side of the upper structure taking on a no tolerance stance toward disrespect, and there is also what each of us can do, by acting appropriately towards those in power, whether we happen to like them or not.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a voice, but it can ALWAYS be done with respect, and this has been proven over and over again. 

On the flip side, if you do not feel like you've received the respect you deserve from someone that outranks you...instead of joining them and openly displaying disrespect toward them, you can always fall back on the old saying- Rank up and DO something about it!

I'm sure many discussions happen behind closed doors between top figures when a member steps out of line. In which case, at a glance it would appear that the disrespect has been ignored - yet, this is only due to the matter not being dealt with publicly in our streets. I would prefer talks to happen out in the open, as it serves as a good example to young folk on what level of behavior is appropriate.

I have found that in this day in age it is more often the person that is judged, rather than the rank they carry. High ranked mafioso's are plentiful, so it is no surprise that some behave inappropriately and do not always conduct themselves in a manner which every gangster could look up to. In some cases, I would find it challenging to differentiate between a low rank and a high rank mafioso - if their title was not on show.

No one likes inequality; but that's exactly what you're asking for. No one likes the idea that someone else is better than them simply because they're a higher rank. Rather than enjoy the privileges of being a higher rank, we like to go through life without conflict or controversy. We've forsaken the natural hierarchy to this thing of ours. We approach petty thieves and thugs (though less so since the GFC ruling) as recruits instead of letting them come to us. From the get-go we give the illusion that we are subservient to them, not the other way around.

Then we make no distinction between Made Men and Associates. Since we all strive for equality (OOC: as democratic people), we can't really justify why some of us are better than others. Well, guess what? You civilians, petty thieves, and thugs aren't worth shit. They barely make any money, they can't shoot, and usually we have to wire them money to get them started in their career. Yet we approach them like the future of our crew is in their hands? Fuck them. Until you make your bones, you aren't shit.

But it is up to us to hold leaders accountable for their button men. A button man rogues from your crew and kills someone? That's on the rogue's crewleader. It's their job to vet each of their button men before giving them that rank. Yet, when these situations arise there seems to be some justifiable negligence on the part of the crewleader. I think an additional component to the GFC ruling should have been made to go along with the "Die with your crew" policy for Button Men. It should read like this: "Crewleaders are directly responsible for the actions of their button men, regardless of whether or not the action was under orders of the Crewleader."

Maybe once crewleaders realize that each time they hand out a button they are entrusting the safety of their crew, they'll stop handing them out so freely. Then we can maintain a bit more respect for these people; because we'll know it was a deliberate decision on the part of the crewleader.

Well, guess what? You civilians, petty thieves, and thugs aren't worth shit.

Careful taylor, you may be on the receiving end of a $200,000,000 hit if you carry on that way. As many might already assume, I agree with this statement and it's a shame that there are people around that believe this isn't the case. Although these civilians and petty thieves are the future crew leaders of our world, they're literally nobodies when they enter this world and this is something many people including some of our leaders seem to be forgetting at present.

Sal I hear your point loud and clear and I agree with P_habulis that there are times where the repercussions of someone stepping out of line may happen behind the scenes. Having been on the brunt end of a lot of disrespect a few weeks back I had to contact several leaders regarding their members. On occasion the punishment was death, for others it was a sit down with the end result being a payout. I've actually brought up this subject a few times myself Sal and I do wish that more respect was given to our button men and not just by associates but by other button men too. Sometimes things can get a little heated of course but it completely crosses the line when these no mark associates are trying to belittle and disrespect our button men.

taylor, regarding the rogue point you brought up, I have to say it's a tough call on that as I was the victim of this sort of situation and for those in my family they are fully aware that gaining their button is no easy task. I literally had no idea my guy was going to do it and I was very surprised, disappointed and let down when it happened. However, sometimes people have a hidden agenda already pre-set in their mind and on this occasion I was left a letter from the rogue to state that they always intended to rogue. When you say vet someone, I take this to mean find out previous lineages too? If this is the case it's something I personally don't like to do. I prefer to give people a chance in the hope they don't repeat their parent's mistakes. Of course, there are family lines that hold an exception and I'm sure everyone can think of a couple of names, this is a different conversation to be had though and one I'd gladly take part in if it were brought up elsewhere.

I doubt anyone will present an argument in favour of the lower ranks being able to openly disrespect the higher ranks, as I think in principle everyone has the supremacy of Made+ ingrained into them pretty early on. I do however think there needs to be some common sense shown given the nature of our world (i.e. this is a forum, which should revolve around communication, but it is also a game that needs to be entertaining) and we need to make some allowance for that. Provided people are not being ridiculously over the line, I've always found the fallback of "you're only a *low rank*, how dare you question me" to be rather flimsy and used when the answer is

I think most times where a rogue comes from a family, that boss is punished. It might not always be by a bullet to the face, but it is very rare that something isn't exacted from them as compensation. That should be all the incentive a leader needs to actually vet their up and comers; presuming that they don't instill any importance in the rank to begin with. 

One common misconception is that all associates are worthless pieces of shit, which has historically never been the case and isn't something we should be so quick to adopt. Personally, I've encountered many capable Wise Guys in my time here and whilst they aren't the same level as men of honour, they are a long way above shit. Historically too, some wise guys were extremely powerful and respected in their own right because the mob traditionally only promoted full Italians, meaning some people were permanently exempt from becoming Made. Even in the original incarnation of our world, in it's early days Wise Guys were respected and it was a sought after position. So I think we should remember this is a hierarchical system for a reason and that it still applies even lower down on the food chain. 

My point is that an arc should be present in each person's life. At the start, you really are nothing. I'm a third-generation immigrant who lost his family to sickness last winter. I was nothing when I walked past Gravity and his entourage. I begged for an audience and an invitation to his crew and his lifestyle; my arc began. I get some cash for drugs, I make a few deals, I cash in working for a couple of organized crimes with some of the biggest names in New York. Suddenly, I'm rolling in it. Sure, I get a little cocky, but it's not until I got Made that I really had confidence in who I was and what I was doing. Who knows where my arc will end? But I know I'll be on the way up til the day I die.

What are you without this arc? What's the point? The only way to enjoy the luxuries of being on top is if you feel the mud and sweat of being at the bottom. The only way anyone will appreciate their promotions is if you have a discernible difference in how you interact with them. Being able to organize crimes? I get maybe a little more money. Start my own HQ? And what? Get gunned down in record time? No thanks. The power that comes with being Made is the respect. And the only way you can have a step-up is if you were once a step-down.

Associates aren't worthless, but they're not my equal. They are below me on the totem pole, and they should act that way. I'm not gonna be a cunt to them for talking out of turn, but I'm also not gonna suffer some insult from a fat shit Goomba cause he thinks he's got it all figured out.

As for rogues, that discussion is almost entirely out of place here (and I shouldn't have brought it up). My thoughts on them belong in another setting, so I will simply excuse them for now.

I have to say, although he is my crew member, I fully agree with what taylor has said. Rank is something that should not be taken lightly. If you have moved up to the Made echelon of your family, then you have moved up to the Made echelon of your district and your city. It is not something to be taken lightly. I think it's a slap in the face for all that work and respect you have earned, if some loose mouthed thug comes out and calls you all the names under the sun.

Now don't get me wrong, there are times where the insults and mockery have gone too far and the Gods interfere, and rightly so, but I have also seen cases where one word too far has been their downfall, and have been killed in a swift manner. I feel that sometimes lines can be blurred, words are misconstrued, and certain standards are a lot lower for some people than others, but I also feel that this is not really a set line that can be placed and when people go past it, they are punished. It's pretty much down to the people that are involved and their respective families.

As for rank, sure it means that we are allowed to go about our businesses in a slightly different manner, we are a lot more involved with the criminal underworld and we have a lot more responsibility, but it doesn't mean just because we are a higher rank that we can act like pricks to everyone below us. I know that this was not the general message from this speech, but I feel that sometimes people have these kind of thoughts in their head. I class this to be almost as bad as the disrespectful thugs themselves.

I will try and not boost my ego too much, but take myself as an example. Sure, I am a Don, sure I am a Crew leader, sure I have been around these shores a lot longer than most people, but does this mean I can act like a prick? Of course not, and I never would anyway. I think my family and others can vouch for me when I say that I make time and give respect to the newly arrived thug, to the oldest Godfathers on these shores. There should be no inconsistencies when addressing people. Basically put, if people want respect, then give the same back. We are the Mafia, we are not some street hooligans. Sure what we do is breaking the law, sometimes we have no shame in who we kill or who we extort, but we should  ALWAYS have respect for our own people, otherwise what separates us from those shitty thugs that no nothing about this life and generally end up dying in the gutter?

it would class a made man or above being deliberately disrespectful worse than a thug because it then shines a bad light directly on the crew leader that has entrusted them in being in such a high rank and to why they cannot learn basic respect 

Sal had been sitting back smoking a cigar and listening carefully as other mafioso's weighed in and discussed their opinions on what He had brought to the table. He finally butt the cigar out and re-entered the debate.

I would prefer talks to happen out in the open, as it serves as a good example to young folk on what level of behavior is appropriate.

My main point in this speech was to "Be the change", so not only would I love to see those that act inappropriately be made an example of, we also need the flip side of this, and we need to lead by example as well. 

I think an additional component to the GFC ruling should have been made to go along with the "Die with your crew" policy for Button Men. It should read like this: "Crewleaders are directly responsible for the actions of their button men, regardless of whether or not the action was under orders of the Crewleader."

If you think about it, the rank of Made Man means something from both sides. For the man himself, it means he's proved himself to be worthy of the Crew/Families backing, and literally cannot be touched without going to his upper's/Crew Leader/Godfather, no matter what he has done. 

But on the other hand, it means everything he does now also reflects back on the Crew/Family. He is now part of the inner circle and lives and dies with them.

This seems to have been cheapened as of late, but again, this can change.

I've actually brought up this subject a few times myself Sal and I do wish that more respect was given to our button men and not just by associates but by other button men too.

Respect may be a two way street, but those already up there have the right to demand it by definition, and those that aren't still must earn it. This by no means says you will have no consequences if you treat the little guy like dirt, but those consequences will be lack of motivation and unwillingness to work hard for you. I think it goes without saying, that just because something is your right to do, that it may not be in your best interest to belittle those that work for or with you. Their loyalty will depend entirely on your treatment of them.

One common misconception is that all associates are worthless pieces of shit, which has historically never been the case and isn't something we should be so quick to adopt. Personally, I've encountered many capable Wise Guys in my time here and whilst they aren't the same level as men of honour, they are a long way above shit.  

Again, they will only work as hard as they are motivated to. A good Crew Leader can see potential and nurture it, and teach early on what is appropriate and what will not be tolerated.

The only way to enjoy the luxuries of being on top is if you feel the mud and sweat of being at the bottom. 

I know this all too well, as My family line has worked its ass off and not one of them had a silver spoon.

Associates aren't worthless, but they're not my equal. They are below me on the totem pole, and they should act that way. I'm not gonna be a cunt to them for talking out of turn, but I'm also not gonna suffer some insult from a fat shit Goomba cause he thinks he's got it all figured out. 

I think there is a point where an older wiser mafioso needs to teach the younger one's when to use a filter between their head and their mouths. It would save a shit load of drama in the street as well. But, it helps no one when the older mafioso retorts back in the exact same manner, and only tends to hurt their position as well as feed the trolls, so to speak.

Rank is something that should not be taken lightly. If you have moved up to the Made echelon of your family, then you have moved up to the Made echelon of your district and your city. It is not something to be taken lightly. 

It seems to be a lot lighter than it used to be, and hopefully we can change that, as I think respect is valued just underneath Omerta, or should be, and disrespect needs to have consequences.

 If you have moved up to the Made echelon of your family, then you have moved up to the Made echelon of your district and your city.

Gravity, being made is actually more than that; it extends to all Mafia members, regardless of district or city and shows that you have been recognised to join the elite. A made guy from Philly is still a made guy in Los Angeles and will be treated as such by anyone in the Mafia, whether they are in the same family or not. They are all 'friends of ours'. 

Sal, the point I am making with regards to wise guys has nothing to do with motivation or nurturing. It is the fact that in some quarters it is considered you're made or you're nothing, (taylor, has since elaborated and his stance is one I'm in agreement with, but I've seen it said before, wrongly) when in reality this is far from the truth. A wise guy has moved up the ladder and isn't merely someone knocking about with some of the local goons, they have earned and developed. 

I'd also like to add that part of being made is the freedom to act however you choose. There is obviously an inherent responsibility that comes with joining the family outlawing certain things, but if a man chooses to break a few words over the back of a thug, or "act like a cunt" as you've put it, they have earned the right to do that if they so choose. After all, this isn't a gentleman's club where we all sip our brandy and read our newspapers; this is the Mafia and ultimately we are criminals who have made ourselves on the streets and deep down as a result of that, many of us are just not very nice people. That's to be expected, isn't it? So occasionally that is going to come out and I know I won't be minding my p's and q's in order to appease sensibilities that have apparently become far too delicate or to conform to a standard which I doubt ever existed in the first place.