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| Getting the boot | Started by: Decker_White on May 18, '09 17:11 |
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I've been thinkin' lately. People come and go from different families all the time. Most of the goin' is in wooden boxes, but sometimes it's career advancement. People wanna put on new suits, get noticed, and finally buy that sports car they've been eyein' for so long but could never afford on account've havin' to kick up so much cash to their employers and because the missus is always demanding somethin' to wear to the social club. Right? So what do people do? They get a job offer and their boss gives it the okay 'cause, hell, they've proven themselves and they wanna give 'em a chance to shine. This is what I don't get: why is it that bosses give these mobsters the boot instead of receiving a final tribute? I mean, yeah, they wanna be nice to them since they're so deservin' of this promotion and all, but wouldn't it make more sense for the guy that's leaving to send his respects to thank his former boss? Buying out of a family's got a negative image of bein' used solely by those wantin' to go rogue when it could be used in a positive manner. My thinkin' is that getting kicked out of a family's more of a punishment for someone not worthy of carryin' the family name no more, which probly isn't the intention of a boss sending off one of his finest. Of course, no one's kicked out of a family for punishment unless someone's already takin' aim, and this doesn't happen often since people think killin' a guy in a family's more prestigious than a guy that's not. What if it were different? When a guy's given the boot, shouldn't he also be stripped of his title? How can he be considered, for example, an earner if he's not earnin' for nobody? Essentially, the guy's a civilian again (or, at best, a petty thief). He would be given a blessing by the gods since he's no longer involved in a life of crime, so he wouldn't end up dead within minutes--prolonging his punishment. He'd also not be able to shoot at anyone. He couldn't commit suicide or retire, and no one would want the fucker in their families 'cause a) they guy must've done somethin' wrong to have been kicked out, and b) it'd be disrespectful to the family that sent him packing. The guy'd have to wait until he's considered a gangster again before someone can shoot him, and maybe his next of kin would learn from his dad's mistakes. Granted, it may seem a bit extreme, but it might be a reasonable punishment for certain repeat offenders. I realize I'm not in the position to implement such a system, but I thought I'd toss the idea out there. So, my questions to you: Could it work? Would it help the leaders finally discipline the worst of our society? Would it be a pain in the ass to deal with? Will the descendents of the punished actually think twice before continuin' in their fathers' footsteps? Let's hear it. |
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The thing about it is this, when someone leaves a family for a position in the family you have no idea what they have offered to their boss as a thank you. On the outside all we see is that such and such has left said family to join another. We have no idea of how the leaving took place. As for booting someone as a form of punishment, why would any family head just kick someone out of the family and leave it at that. If you've done something that calls for your removal from a family it should be in a wooden box and no other way. There should be no second chance for them to join another family and reach the position that they held in a previous family. |
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| Reply by: Dave_Klein at May 18, '09 17:19 | |
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They aren't given an extra chance. They eventually end up dead, but instead of it happenin' all lickity split, they've got to wait until they're a gangster again. It's making their punishment last two solid days instead of havin' it over in an instant, which would ideally teach the punished's kid a valuable lesson 'bout pissing off the wrong people. Maybe I didn't explain that well enough the first time. |
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| Reply by: Decker_White at May 18, '09 17:23 | |
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| Why should they be left for anyone to pick up a kill then? It's the family heads right to enforce the punishment. Also this is a good reason for the whispers they can inform the victim of why they are being punished. | |
| Reply by: Dave_Klein at May 18, '09 17:53 | |
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When a guy's given the boot, shouldn't he also be stripped of his title? How can he be considered, for example, an earner if he's not earnin' for nobody? Essentially, the guy's a civilian again... Not true. I'm sure the FBI would wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment. A criminal doesn't become a straight-laced civilian again simply because he is not working for anybody. Where associates are concerned, mafia families (in the five families of New York, for example) are familiar enough with others in the business where they would not necessarily have to earn trust and respect all over again, and the ranks below Mademan are not really "ranks" per se, so there is nothing to demote. These things below the rank of Mademan are more accurately described as a status. What we call a "gangster" is just some punk off the street who might make a delivery or two for a Mademan, and who is recognized by the family in that they are allowed to crime on a certain patch so long as tribute is paid. A "Goomba" is not much different, but perhaps has been doing it longer. An "Earner" is recognized as someone who works for the family, but is not in the family. He pays tribute to a Mademan. A "Wiseguy" is probably someone who has been around long enough to earn trust and respect, might hang out with some of the Mademen, and is being considered for acceptance into the family. The actual rank of anyone under Mademan, if they have a rank at all, is "soldato". As far as Mademen go, once you are Made, you are forever Made. You cannot be "un-made" in the mafia. The only way to lose that status is to die. Of course, not all Bosses abide by that, but this does not make it any less true. All it does is show that they do not understand the concept of being made. In any event, I don't think the main point of your speech can be implemented universally. In some cases, sure, the Boss may want a final tribute. I'm sure it has happened a few times when the relationship between the two has not been extremely close, but this is not usually the case. Usually, if someone is worthy to receive the honor of being a RHM or a CL, they have probably worked hard enough for their previous Boss so that the Boss has enough gratitude for the mobster that he would release him with a smile, a warm handshake, and well wishes. |
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| Reply by: Butt_Ox at May 18, '09 17:56 | |
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| Also - a trusted soldier being sent off to serve as a lieutenant or a leader is often seen as an investment. I'm sure any existing leader would trade that "final tribute" in exchange for longevity, continued loyal and progress from the promoted prospect - and in fact would thread finaciable support towards that investment should it be necessary. | |
| Reply by: Telemachus at May 18, '09 18:14 | |
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I'm startin' to regret commenting on people paying tribute to their bosses. I'm not sure how it could be considered the main point of the discussion. It was just a passing comment--not something I think should be regulated and enforced. What I'd like to talk about is the use of disowning someone as a form of punishment. I don't really give a shit what the Feds want to call someone no longer workin' for a family and I know damn well that the rankings we've got here aren't perfect. Since we can't change that, I'm tryin' to present a solution to a problem that I've noticed. If the guy's still alive, the family could easily explain the person's wrongdoings without havin' to pin a note on his corpse. As for the family not gettin' to kill the guy, they'd be the ones that know precisely when the guy was given the boot. And who the fuck really cares who gets the shot as long as the guy's dead? One kill isn't gonna upset the world order. |
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| Reply by: Decker_White at May 18, '09 18:16 | |
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Alright then, if you want to talk about that, I can give you two good reasons why it does not happen. A practical reason, and a realistic reason. If someone is booted, the family loses a powerful control over them (HQ Wack). It would be irresponsible to let someone lose on the cities who knows they are condemned to die. If Boss X booted someone, then someone took a shot at him and missed, the booted mobster is suddenly everyone's problem. If I were a Boss and lost one, just ONE member because of this irresponsibility, I would take out my vengeance on the guy who let the rogue off the chain. It's also not the way the mob enforces. If someone does the family wrong, they very rarely get a train ticket out of town. The only way out is in a pine box. |
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| Reply by: Butt_Ox at May 18, '09 18:31 | |
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Nods in agreement to almost everything Sir Ox the only thing I feel is a little off is the following:
Although you can not be "Un-Made" you most certainly can have responsibilities stripped, your pecking order knocked down a few pegs, your tribute amounts increased with out being given any more jobs to bring in the difference etc. All of those things could easily be considered being demoted below Made in our world. None of which would mean pine box - I believe it or not in all of my bloodlust as it were firmly believe the Pine Box is far to over used in our world at times. "OMG MM=X insulted BP in the streets" Obits: MM=X In this case, the MM could be forced to divvy up extra tribute to Brick for the insult while having territory taken from them and readjusting their status with in their own family. He now has to reprove his worth with his own boss AND gain more money than before with less tool's just to break even. I have gotten a little off the beaten path from the topic as it were, but just wanted to open a line of discussion on that particular thought of yours. leans against a light post |
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| Reply by: Money-B at May 18, '09 18:43 | |
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| That would be a suitable form of punishment, and I agree that the used forms of punishment are too often the simple solution of death rather than a creative solution, but the point is that the person being punished would still be made. He could be shoveling shit in the dog kennel for two dollars a day, but he would be a Made shit shoveler. | |
| Reply by: Butt_Ox at May 18, '09 18:47 | |
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With all due respect, what could someone without the ability to shoot do to kill someone, Mr Ox? What I'm clearly suggestin' is to demote the guy before taking his sponsorship. And while I know you're tryin' to be the supreme authority on all things Mafia, are we not the mob? Can we not be innovative and create our own rules? Christ, I could list a million things "the mob doesn't do" that we somehow tolerate. I can't accept your reasoning in this circumstance. I hate change jus' as much as the next guy, but the same bloodlines continue to be problems and continue to spawn offspring that are just as detrimental to our way of life. I'd like to see some control--we're organized crime for fuck's sake. I can't see any problem to this idea that can't be worked out, and I think the current leadership might find it a bit interesting. That's all I'm sayin'. |
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| Reply by: Decker_White at May 18, '09 22:25 | |
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Someone without the ability to shoot? What do you plan to do, cut off his arms? Sure, you can be innovative and create your own rules. That is not the impediment to utilizing your suggestion. The problem will be when it comes back to bite you in the ass after the plan goes wrong. I have already described one possible situation that could occur when someone is dropped from the family and then receives an unintentional prowack. That is all it would take for someone to regain a gun, and maybe even rank up to Earner from Gangster if the jails are cooperative. If the person has a decent shot record, you could be in trouble at that point. So, like everything in our life, yes, you can choose any course of action that you see fit. Just don't be surprised when it ends up being the death of you. As far as being the supreme authority on all things, what would you like me to do? Forget everything that has been passed down to me through countless generations over a number of years, from ancestors who have almost - without skipping a generation - been in high and powerful positions? That's not going to happen. If you don't like the knowledge and experience I so freely share, don't accept it. That will just make you a few steps behind those who choose to listen and learn from it. Right now I am telling you exactly what would happen if you chose to implement this plan. Ancestors of mine have seen people try it, have seen it go wrong, and have killed crewleaders for their irresponsibility. When I "try to be the authority on all things", I'm not just talking out my ass. Most of the time it is knowledge gained directly from experience pertinent to the conversation. |
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| Reply by: Butt_Ox at May 18, '09 22:54 | |
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looks to Butt_Ox Well Sir now we disagree:
Uhhmmm, did your ancestors of great stature and authority forget to mention I Money-B am the Supreme Authority On All Things ??? shakes head |
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| Reply by: Money-B at May 18, '09 22:59 | |
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| Yes, I did forget, but you must share the title with me and at least 10 other egomaniacs who roam these streets. | |
| Reply by: Butt_Ox at May 18, '09 23:01 | |
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If a leader uses this as a form of punishment for someone with such a shot record, then that leader deserves what's comin' to him for making such a bad decision. However, I'd like to think that our leaders are capable of figurin' the right way to use such a system. And yes, I will personally cut off the guy's arms. |
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| Reply by: Decker_White at May 18, '09 23:14 | |
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Can I be the insignificant authority on some stuff? |
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| Reply by: Pickles at May 18, '09 23:21 | |
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| You will be in charge of s'mores and guacamole dip. | |
| Reply by: Butt_Ox at May 18, '09 23:24 | |
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I can do that. Pickles wanders off to go herd some avocados and graham crackers. |
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| Reply by: Pickles at May 18, '09 23:32 | |
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I'd have to agree with the statements of Butt_Ox that this is a bad idea due to failed implementation in the past. Even the tiniest possibility of letting a rogue into the streets, no matter how harmless (or armless) could always come back to bite a CL due to the random chance that a bullet fired from this degenerate could actually hit some one. Remember, it is not impossible for anyone in this game to kill anyone else, it is simply a matter of probability. Another reason that I don't see this as a popular option for any crew-leader is the fact that these troublemakers serve as good target practice for crews. Why pass up the chance to earn another kill under your belt for yourself or for one of your hitters? By letting these people back on the streets, you simply announce that it is open season on the mobster and he would be shot down by someone else who wants the XP that the CL just passed up on. Even if people would have to wait for him to rank up back to gangster - assuming he has been demoted back to a Civilian- he would simply be treated as many inactives are on the streets and would be gunned down within seconds of achieving rank. |
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| Reply by: Timmy-Two-Toes at May 19, '09 00:18 | |
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