Squishy, whilst that would solve the issue of the tax system being meaningless, it doesn't solve the issue that drove Denam here in the first place. I have been chatting with him in the background in an attempt to come up with a more realistic system.

How would you feel about an earning Prowess stat in the HQ? Just like the Prowess stat in your profile, it would show your percentage earnings compared with the average earnings at your rank? That way CLs still haven't an exact figure to work off, but with work and dedication, they could work out if they were being ripped off by certain individuals.

The title of this thread is Custom Taxes and Honesty 2.0, not "pls remove taxes". Here's why I like the tax system; we aren't mobsters. We're playing a game, and that means we can't be a part of this world 24/7. Taxes allows you to treat casual players and hardcore players on the same level, because the taxes are proportional to their activity and earning prowess. I made this suggestion because I want to use the tax system. The problem is that it makes little sense to actually do that as it is right now. So I provided some suggestions to make it more appealing to use the tax feature.

I don't see how you can interpret that as "fully disabling taxes". Disabling taxes would effectively change nothing. Because right now it's basically a donation system anyways (because tax rates are completely unenforceable), so removing taxes would just reduce the duplicity in the two features.

Rather than suggesting to remove the feature I want to enhance, could you please just express your concerns about making tax information totally viewable by crewleaders?

Jonny, all the other stuff is superfluous, and really not relevant to the main conversation. I chose to place it here as it was stuff I was mulling over and got a good boost when Denam posted.

The stumbling point is thus:

Denam is right that a CL is pretty powerless to decide if a player is kicking up anywhere near enough money to be even close to what he should be. There are no viewable stats to a CL or hand that allows him to judge how much work a member has or hasn't done.

Denam thinks this would be solved by giving back full viewability to a CL so that they know exactly what you should have kicked up.

Squishy is dead against this, and i agree with him on that front.

However I agree that the present system is 'broken' so I have suggested middle ground, where the Cl has an 'idea' of what a player's earning potential is, but has to do extra work to decide if his donations are adequate.

Because Squishy, it forces all CLs to be the same, they all have to be nice. Plus, I am a CL (Yeah I'm not, but for this demonstration i am) as you said, it is unrealistic for a Cl to know the exact figure, and I agree, but fucked if I am gonna trust that every member of my family is tributing the right amount or more. They are criminals, of course they are screwing me, no matter how nice I am. That is just a realistic belief as my Cl knowing the exact finances. However, a CL would know roughly how much each area of his business generates, so i fail to see why a little assistance on this front is so wrong.

So, realism? It's unrealistic for a CL to know how much is owed? If I'm mistaken in that interpretation, let me know.

I appreciate your appeal to realism, and I like that realism has a role in features' integration. However, while I will agree that you're correct in that it's unrealistic for this information to be available to the crewleader, what results is something worse. The feature is realistic, but the way the game has responded to it has actually resulted in a shift away from realism. Allow me to explain.

The crewleader doesn't know how much is owed, and doesn't even really have a frame of reference for what is owed unless he spends a lot of time online trying to calculate that information himself. So what results is a mafia family built on donations, rather than tribute. Since taxes are effectively unenforceable, the finances of the crew tend to be donations. This, to me, seems really unrealistic. The mafia was about greed and (often times) ruthlessness. Mafia empires weren't built on goodwill donations from members. They were built on overtaking territory, extortion, and drug deals. I'm simplifying things, but if the mafia had been built on goodwill, it would have been called organized charity, not organized crime.

So I think, even though it is unrealistic in nature, it would behoove us to adopt a policy making tribute information available to crewleaders. Even though it's unrealistic for the CL to know that information, the CL can behave more realistically when armed with that information. He can enforce a tax rate. He can punish his members for skimming off the top. He can act like a criminal, rather than just hoping for the charity of his members.

No Squishy, you can't. I'm here regularly, probably at least 8 hours a day. But during that time I'm doing a shit ton of stuff. Trying to earn, trying to rank, running the crew when the CL and RHM aren't here. Posting in forums, making game suggestions [:p], answering mail, all sorts of stuff. I see people come and go offline, but i have no idea how often they are on, how long they are on, what they do when they are here.

So Player A sends up $20k as a tribute this week. He's a Wiseguy, so I think this is low. Hey Player A, why only 20k? Well my granny is sick in RL and I wasn't on much. I'm in work and was only shooting cos i can't play much, yadda Yadda yadda. There is no way to disprove any excuse at the moment. So as Denam says, there is no way to enforce the earnings. Sure you can be a complete cunt and just demand they pay X amount, but then you are back to there being no point in the tax system. The CLs need something so that they can judge against. Hours active, earning prowess, weird description that hints at the power of earner they are. I'm not asking for an x amount, what I'm asking for is a hint, something to go off.

If I was an organised criminal, I'd have ball park figures as to how much racketeering earns in the eastside, how much loansharking earns in brooklyn, how much drug dealing makes in the bronx. But as we don't assign jobs like that in game we have nothing. I don't know if Player A is on 5 mins a day or 22 hrs a day. I don't know if he is a click monkey, or just shoots, or roleplays, or just talks shit all day in G1, there is absolutely nothing to go on to give you any idea of what a person is doing in your crew, so if he sends $10 or $10 million dollars, you either believe him, or be a cunt and slap him about and shake him down for more.

JonnyBeRed, don't worry, it won't be lost. If we can get the tax system otherwise sorted, I'll be pushing the other tweaks to see if there is any interest in it :D

But yet you are worried about possibly overstepping your bounds by expecting a member to kick up more?  You shy away from doing the legwork to see if a member should be kicking up more or less than what he is? I really don't think its right to spoon feed the CLs the exact numbers so they can avoid any akward situations with their members version of what should be kicked up conflicting with their own. If you can't trust your very own members to kick up what you tell them to, then why are you scared of having a face to face about the crew finances and their role in them?

I'm not shying away from legwork; I'm saying that it's actually impossible to know how much a person earns. You can guess, predict, or estimate, but at the end of the day there is actually no way of knowing how much they made and how much they owe you.

I don't think it's right to spoon feed members and let them get away with sending up any amount they want with no repercussions. I don't understand why you're equating available information with unilateral power over everyone in the crew. The crew still has the power to set themselves to disloyal, and even not pay their taxes. If the CL is an ass about taxes, he can get himself taken out. But right now, there's no situation at all, much less an awkward one.

I'm not "scared" of having a face-to-face about crew finances or the member's role in them, it's just I have absolutely NOTHING to base that discussion off of. There's no point in sitting down and trying to talk to someone about their tribute when you have absolutely no information to discern whether or not they're even satisfying the tax rate you've requested. In most cases, there isn't even a tax rate set at all. It's just counter-intuitive. I'm trying to make the tax system intuitive, so that leaders will actually use it.

I don't know what is needed to convince you. You don't see the problems of unrealistic CL behaviors (and the effects that it has on avoiding mayor taxes a la Archy) or you just won't respond to them. I think realistic gameplay is more important than realistic features. If you really want me to write you a treatise about this, I can. This game isn't 100% realistic. There are a ton of features and components that don't play into realism at all, and I have absolutely no problem with them, because nearly all of them promote some kind of intuitive or fun gameplay. But this doesn't do that; it's realistic but pointless. And are we really going to promote realism in the context of our game features at the cost of realistic gameplay?

First it's about realism, then it's not. If you don't like the suggestion just say so and leave it at that; I'm too tired to spend my time trying to hit a moving target here. I support Chris's suggestions on a middle ground here, because at least then people may use the tax system (which was the goal of this whole suggestion in the first place).

OK, line in the sand time, as there seems to be absolutely no movement, and people trying to read this thread will get bored real fasy

^See, that's the line, fresh start.

Squishy, I agree with you that finances shouldn't be the be all and end all, however CLs should be allowed to run their crews as they see fit. Is it not their decision? Should a CL not have the choice if they want to be Mister ubber friend, or Mister Gimme the money? Not everyone is out to create the best crew they can, and whilst that may be the correct goal, people have to be allowed to fuck up and fail.

Hence my suggestion. I don't want exact earnings revealed, all I want is a small nudge, so that if a CL wants to be more monetarily involved, they can be.

So now that I've said that, I'd like your honest feedback Squishy on the following:

1. Crew Bank account created, accessible by CL, RHM & LHM.

2. Earning Prowess stat under Manage Crew, that adds up all earnings that a player pays tax on, and compares it to the global rank average. If the Rank average for an Earner is 200k a day, and I earn 100k it shows my prowess at 50%. Likewise if I earn 274k it shows a prowess of 137%. This gives away no values, but it allows a CL/Hand to judge who is active more. It also will allow CLs to reward active players who donate their fair share.

3. All Made man and non sponsored crew members tributes go to the LHM. He then has to manually update their earnings in the Manage crew tab. He then deposits this money into the Crew bank.

4. All associates tributes go to their sponsors. They have to update their earnings on the Manage sponsors page which will auto feed into the Manage Crew page. They then kick the money up to the Crew Bank.

5. All Made Men and above are automatically designated sponsors.

Pros:

• Allows for effective use of the individual taxes, which is what I had in mind when I originally suggested that change.
• Allows for CLs to have more of an idea of what people in their crew actually do, without revealing exact details or values.
• Adds a new dimension to the LHM and Sponsor roles, giving them some extra work to do, increasing their value to the CL and family, and the prestige associated with being one of these roles.
• Adds value to the rank of Made man, perhaps making CLs think more about who they promote to made man.
• Continues to allow crew members to Skim money and hold back from their CL donations without being caught if they do it right, but allows for crew to be caught and punished if they are too greedy.
• Allows for LHM and Sponsors to also skim from the money they handle, with the same caveats as above.

Cons:

• May allow some CLs to decide to be money focused rather than crew focused, which should be their right. As you have said Squishy, if they don't run their crew right, they will suffer in the long run, but i still think that should be their choice.
• Squishy doesn't want to reveal players earnings and therefore doesn't like this idea.