“Let me die in this old uniform in which I fought my battles. May God forgive me for ever having put on another.” 

Benedict Arnold

Creepily sprawling out of the dark, Gollum approaches the gathered.

You must knows what i mean when i quotes the notorious Benedict Arnold! You must know what my reasoning out here in the streetsies is! 

Gollum, who for whatever reason now wheres a suit and tie was pacing back and forth. His hands flailed in the air. It seemed that he personally did not know the correct answers to many of the questions he was soon to ask. It would hold him back to ask no more. The burning thoughts were soon to be let out and inflame the streets of the mafia where everyone was always able to hear whether they were in new york or las vegas. The streets; an incredible place.  

The question i asks is not hard to understand, rather it is one that i dont think has been directly mentioned. Is it acceptable that one could in fact leave their Crew/Family/Syndicate in a time of war? A turncoat is what we commonly refer to these people. They are the ones who change loyalty and desert their party or cause in order to join another. The best way we can express the damage it can cause is by looking through history. We have individuals like Brutus and Judas who betrayed those closest with them and forever changed the course of history.

<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">There are some that would say, if the ship is sinking get the hell off and live! While others say, no you must go down with the ship for it is but the most honorable ways of </font>perishing<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">.  Then there are some that would say what im on a ship? Finally there are some that would say, IM ON A BOAT!!!</font>

Gollum jumps up on the closest wall and rapidly climbs up it devouring the fish in his mouth. 

What are your thoughts! Is it acceptable for a person to 'Jump Ship' when their leader dies? Is it acceptable for a person to desert a family if the majority of the family never initiated conversations with him/her? Is it honorable for a person to die for a family, when he/she has put in countless hours of work and not once had a conversation with them? 

Gollum falls back to the street. Walking in the midst of the gathered he slowly speaks once more.

What do you think? 

If you are not Italian/sicilian sure.

There is a clear line in the sand between a man who has been accepted into a family and an associate. Personally, I would expect to see the Made Men fight and fall as soldatos. An associate is exactly that, someone who is associated with the family. It is easy to forget that our business and the rules that govern it apply, for the most part, to those soldatos welcomed into the family. 

Are there rules on associates leaving their sponsors and joining another family, regardless of if there is a war or not? Most certainly, but those are rules we have made and I can imagine the majority of the associates in this world are men and women trying to find their feet. 

We probably shouldn't be so quick to discourage their progress and lump them in with those who have already closed the door on any other exit than death. Is it really necessary to murder 40 people to take down a family? Is it worth rooting out every single person that was associated with the family business, or is there capacity once the dust has settled for those who are clearly no threat, to seek work elsewhere?

In my opinion, it's acceptable if not made, or been inactive for days before a war/takedown. Also if someone goes to another surviving family according to ex-CL's wishes/orders.

Well I would think If I was CL. All my members are prepared to die for me at anytime. Or else what is the point of a crew? Just people that you provide protection for then piss off when tragedy hits ?  No they are there and a crew should be seen as one each individual in a crew should all be considered a whole.  if one is attacked the rest should at least go down fighting. This simply comes down to Respect for yourself not loyalty.. Either die a hero or run like a coward.

I know for a fact If Someone came to my crew and was like Yeah I dropped out of so and so crew because they were in a war. I wouldn't think twice about letting the guy in. would be no way possible I would have someone with that cowardly mindset in my crew..

I also agree There is a fine line between associates and MadeMan. If someone was not even capable of defending themselves while the war took place then hell yeah find another crew.. But the people that wouldn't normally made it on the protection order should go down fighting.

That is my opinion..

In any scenario when your family is losing a war or it has already been wiped out and you are still alive, your chances of survival are pretty much 0. Leaving it or trying to join another family, while trying to save your skin will probably get you killed even easier. 

I've had family in my line that has been on both sides of this equation. I won't go into any details on why I chose to jump ship or stay in fight on any occurrence but what I can say is that some of my most enjoyable times have been fighting to keep the ship above water but I really can't say too much about when I have been spared, as it was practically just another day except for the fact that I arrived to a new head quarters with dozens of new faces and immediately missed my crew and wished that I would have just went with them even if I might have not made a single difference other than showing the world that I wont accept defeat like that. 

With that being said though, unless there are rules against this we really can't say too much to someone that is trying to live another day. That is a major part our instinct as humans, for those of us that are humans that is. Going down with the ship though does help your bloodlines resume where as doing the opposite can put quite the black mark on it just the same. If you are having problems with folks saying your not loyal, jumping ship will not help your case at all. 

As Afghan finish his ramblings he turns and walks off down the street, pulling out his pipe and lighting it he turns and disappears across the street. 

FrostByte had been listening from the back of the crowd. She easily made her way up towards the front. Deciding that it had quieted down a little for her to voice her thoughts.

I don't believe in ship jumping. I have always had told to me that loyalty is not something you just pick and choose during the bad times. You stick with it. If you are apart of a family, act like it. Who cares if so-an-dso didn't talk to you? Perhaps you could have tried talking to them.

I find it hard to be able to trust someone that has jumped ships. I mean if they did it once, what is to stop them from doing it again? Can't say loyalty would stop them as it would appear it would not exist.

Just a few of my thoughts. I don't think everyone will agree with any side since everyone sees it differently.

FrostByte smiled sweetly and made her way out of the crowd.

Yet another interesting topic has caught his attention, family abandonment seems to be the trend lately.  It was something he had thought about after recent events. 

I think it depends on the situation really.  For the most part, it has always been said that those Made Man and above are a part of the family, and should die with that family.  While it is frustrating that you put in a lot of work, and then are expected to die with your leader, its a part of this life.  To show true loyalty to your leader, you would not hesitate to go down with them.  If you are not willing to do anything for your family, you don't deserve the rank, or respect that goes with it. 

As I mentioned, there are some situations that could be questionable as to whether its acceptable.  In recent times, it is also the trend that districts, even cities become very close, a district wide family of sorts.  On the occasion that part of the district eventually wins the war, is it acceptable to join another family in said district?  You are technically staying within the "family".  I'm not sure where I stand on this, but its something to ponder. 

Ser Robert riding past the group of people talking and he heard something about jumping ship when a war breaks out. After stopping he got of his steed and hears some wise people speek. After a while he felt like he should tell people what he was thinking. 

I think if people are becoming a made-man they are excepted into the higher part of the family, this is something that you have worked for. The Crew Leader honors you with makeing you part of his inner circle. Becoming part of the inner circle of a crew gives you some new thing to do but also some responsibilities. One of those thing is fighting for your crew and your leader, if you abandon that duty you discrase your own honor. And isn't that the most important thing we have in this world. 

I also think that people that are not made yet shouldn't  jump ship during a war. War is a war but when the war is finished and you where on the losing end of the war , and still a life, you should be allowed to go to a new family. As you where not made yet, you where not bound by the responsibilities of made man. So as long an other family wants to take you in you should be allowed to go. The only reason why people that aren't made yet should die is when they took part in the schooting of people from other families. 

So Made + and people that shoot at the other families should go down with the ship, the rest is innocent in my eyes so they should be able to find a new home. 

After his speech Robert walks back to his steed and rides of

Well I would think If I was CL. All my members are prepared to die for me at anytime. Or else what is the point of a crew? Just people that you provide protection for then piss off when tragedy hits ?  No they are there and a crew should be seen as one each individual in a crew should all be considered a whole.  if one is attacked the rest should at least go down fighting. This simply comes down to Respect for yourself not loyalty.. Either die a hero or run like a coward.

I know for a fact If Someone came to my crew and was like Yeah I dropped out of so and so crew because they were in a war. I wouldn't think twice about letting the guy in. would be no way possible I would have someone with that cowardly mindset in my crew unless they would of ended up on the protection list.. But if there fully capable of defending themselves and they were Mademan then nah thats a cowardly act..

I also agree There is a fine line between associates and MadeMan. If someone was not even capable of defending themselves while the war took place then hell yeah find another crew.. But the people that wouldn't normally made it on the protection order should go down fighting.

That is my opinion.. I would like to restate this cause its true. There is a certain principal every member should follow in my onion. Die a coward or die a hero.

Tony decided to step forward and give his thoughts on this topic. He removed his fedora and then addressed the crowd.

"As mentioned by a few that have spoken already, I think this all boils down to the person’s rank within the family. Under no way shape or form is it acceptable that a person whose a Made Man or above leave their family in a time of war. You took a oath to stand by your family this includes both the good and bad times. You promised to fight and defend your family, jumping ship just spits all over that oath you took.

I understand that in the heat of the battle one might panic and look to tuck tail and run but this isn’t the right thinking. I’ve said it before and I will say it again, it is better to die a honorable death then to survive in vain. I truly believe that. I also understand that if your leader dies, or your sponsor dies it may play a part in your decision but again no matter whose alive and whose dead the family will always be there whether it’s one person or one hundred. If you can somehow stay and fight alongside your brothers and sisters perhaps you can help lead them to victory and thus keep the family going, regardless of whose dead, even if its fighting in what might be inevitable defeat it’s still important you honor the oath you made when you became a full member into your family."

Tony nodded then continued on.

"Now I know the topic has also been brought forth, what if the leaders or sponsors never really spoke to that person. I personally speak to all my members, I make it very clear that my door is always open and they are free to come to me with whatever they need at anytime. Let’s look at the other end of the spectrum though. A leader who doesn’t talk to the person. Perhaps the leader is very busy? Maybe there is a certain chain of command that must be followed for that particular family? The person shouldn’t automatically think the worst because it’s just speculation HOWEVER there is one thing that holds true…that same exact leader you’re wondering about, he’s the person who believed in you enough to promote you to become a Made Man or Capo or whatever rank you are. Based on that one action alone should be enough to prove he or she does in fact notice you and does see the work and efforts you're putting in. So the whole ‘the CL never speaks to me’ thing shouldn’t play a factor in jumping ship.

Now...when discussing associates, non made members, it becomes a more debatable topic in my opinion, really no side is the wrong side in this case, at least in my opinion. The associate is just that, an associate and not a full member of the family therefore they should have the option to either fight for the family because they were given protection in the time they were there or they can choose to flee because again they have no ties and connections, no oath was taken therefore loyalty shouldn’t come into play. For this specific thing it would come down to that person and their personal preference."

Tony paused one final time before finishing up.

"Just to conclude though made men and up have got to fight for and with the family. Remember, it is better to die a honorable death then to survive in vain."

With that Tony put back on his lime green ribboned fedora and tipped it to the crowd. He took a step back and awaited the next person to speak.

Britney is walking through the streets as she normally does when she is trying to find something to do, she was headed to the Detroit business district but over heard a man speaking. He attracted quite a crowd so whatever he was saying was worth the time to stop and listen. She made her way through the crowd finding the perfect stop to listen up. After he finished speaking and that others had their turns she decided to speak up.

"Now this is an interesting topic because I think it merits to look at the situation or actually the family member. Now in regards to everyone that is Mademan or higher should never and I mean never jump ship. At that point you have been deemed loyal and worthy of becoming part of the family and once you are part of the family you are there for the good times and the bad times. Life and death you are there until the end, now some people might argue the fact that it all could depend on the situation at hand but when it comes down to family live together and die together."

Britney pauses for a moment catching her breathe as everyone's eyes are directed on her.

"Now when you are talking about associates my view point is a tiny bit different, I personally think it is to the preference of the person at hand. I mean as an associate you are not technically part of the family just yet but then again you kind of are. Yes your not Made and yes you are not considered part of the crew but your working towards it. So should an associate jump ship, no I don't think they should I think they should stay around and help do whatever they can and if there is nothing else they can do and haven't caught a bullet to head then by all means you have to find somewhere else to go."

Britney cleared her throat softly

"Loyalty is a big deal, it is something that stays with a bloodline and really isn't something that can be taught but rather is a mentality. Those are the people you want around you. In my opinion I will never jump ship"

Britney finishes talking and looks around as everyone's eyes are still on her, hoping someone else would start talking soon so she is no longer in the spotlight.

Fips was walking down the street, when he overheard an interesting discussion. The question of loyalty had always interested him, so he decided to pitch in.

"Very interesting question. I guess you could say that made men should go down with their crewleaders in any case, but in reality, it isn't quite that simple. It depends on the situation! "

Fips pauses, trying to think of an example.

"Okay, here's an example:
So say you're in a crew, you're a made man, and your loyalty lies with your Crew Leader. Of course it does, but not just with your Crew Leader. Your loyalty lies with your districts as well, as well as with your entire city! If this crew leader is killed by those of your own district or own city because he or she did wrong, you probably shouldn't go down with him just because you're in his family. I mean in all honesty, it would be quite hard to find a crew leader who didn't have a district and/or city to protect as well."
 

Fips scratches the back of his head, trying to figure out, what point he wanted to get across.

"I guess in my opinion, you need to consider where your loyalty lies. I wouldn't think any shame in surviving the death of your crew leader, if said death was by the hand of your own district. We recently saw the death of LordBlackwod. Weebl, my dear crew leader, took in a fair share of the late Blackwod's members. I don't consider them cowards just because they didn't fight their own district, and go down with LordBlackwod."

"However, a made man is supposed to be a trusted member of your family. If I was a crew leader, and my city or district was attacked, I would expect my made men to fight back. But if I was removed for ... whatever reason, BY my district/city, I wouldn't want my made men to die with me because of my mistakes."

"To me it's a question of where your loyalty lies. If it's with your city, you'll fight to do the best for your city."

I honestly believe this is a difficult topic as is open to circumstance.   My general approach for war would be any member of the crew/family/syndicate should fight til the end, or play a part whether to pro, identify targets for those with street smarts etc.  I honestly think for many the simple fact they are not given any instructions, order or guidance is a waste of resources as teamwork can be an unfathomable source of assistance even if not fighting.

My worry with taking in any made plus who wouldn't die for his past boss would be simple, if he will not die for them, why would he die for my family? are we looking at someone as simply a homeless shelter, passing home to home til an eventual death? are we that concerned with what we can to simply gain the numbers before the next war and the war after?

Secondly i propose a different situation...  Crew leader A, plans to dispose of his Godfather then we meet a crew vs ex-crew members situation and can understand torn loyalty.   Do we simply rise against Crew leader A from Within or follow the orders even if a foolhardy mission especially if being broadcast far enough for other cities to hear.  I can understand a Godfather wanting to keep many of those who followed him loyally in such situation and weed out the crew leaders allies, big guns within.

Finally, there is the bored or frustrated crew leader who retires or takes shots as bored,  I don't count these so much as ship jumpers as the leader is going against everything and any member who did similar would be shot down the same.  So in that case i would not count them as ship jumpers.

So although i would lean more to protection orders they would probably be associate only, ship jumpers, changing side in a war have loyalty to no one in many cases except saving their own necks. although remember the age on some associates they can still do damage even if not made when mobilized correctly.

I would like to share a story. It is a powerful story that i think you will enjoy and perhaps agree with me that this is how family works. You know what im going to put it on a piece of paper and you can read it. When you are done reading ill ask you a few questions about it afterwards. 

ZoeyHills, my mother, was in Los Angeles with Visas, TyrionLannister, and the late great Taegan. Hollywood was the perfect city to dwell in. Full of movie stars and parties all the time. One day war happened. More like a massacre. The so called friends of Zoey's Godmother betrayed her for whatever reason. They killed her and her leaders. Zoey and Tyrion were the last two alive. This is what happened after Tyrion died. 

Zoey told her people that she was trying to save their lives. That she would find them housing and shelter with her friends if they would just leave the family. She knew how hard they worked and didn't want to see it go to waste. Hollywood was already lost. Zoey had so long before she was going to die as well. The Hollywood Stars, the name of the family, swore absolute loyalty to Zoey. They informed her that they were going down with her no matter what. So they kept shooting and killing others. Slowly One by one the Hollywood Stars died. One by one they fell for Taegan and Hollywood as a whole. Finally the last one went. Game over.

I chose to share that story with you because i believe Associates are big. I believe that associates are family. Those individuals chose to stay until the absolute end. That is what loyalty is about and that is what family is about. Standing by the side of someone until the very bitter end.  

Loyalty is a case by case subject. Jumping Ship looks different in each case and i am sure people have their reasons why they don't go down with their leaders. Some good, some stupid. So i want you to look at something from my point of view and maybe its not worth talking about or maybe it is but i am going to bring it up regardless.

When a leader dies the family name dies. When a leader falls his or her associates become un-sponsored. They are no longer recognized as a part of a family. Their status as Made or Boss means nothing to anyone.

SO, if that is the case, does it mean much for someone who was once in a family, that no longer exists, to join up with a new family EVEN THOUGH they were once recognized as a brother or sister in that organization? What really separates that person from jumping ship from anyone else when the leader dies? 

That is the question. My opinion is a case by case one. I would love to see people go down with a family but then there are people who survive only to take revenge upon their fallen families attackers. 

Honestly, I think anyone above Wise Guy should stick with their family (in an ideal world).