Aleksandr's head was filled with questions and thoughts after he had visited another place of public discussion of ideas. There he heard some opinions that he found quite interesting. 

''Should the same loyalty you give to your leader be given to his hands? Surely, the Right Hand is an extension of your leader and he should command (almost) the same respect, and loyalty and trust by extension?''

He pondered about it for a moment and then continued.

''Can we at least agree that you should trust the hand(s) of your leader? Your leader trusts the hand, you trust your leader. Why shouldn't you trust the hand? Is it because you don't ''pick'' the hand like you ''picked'' the leader you joined? Is it weird or normal not to trust the hands like your leader?''

Stepping out to the crowd after having achieved the largest Harty win in the nation, girls in tow, guards in tow, everyone just following him wanting a piece.  He decides to add his input:

As lately these have been being mentioned I will say a simple thing I was part of a crew where both hands turned on their CL, had him assassinated then jumped ship to two other crews not giving a damn about the members that they left in the wake.  Once again loyalty/respect is not given it is earned.

​Heads back off to go pay a orphanage a visit.

"I just heard trust said far too many times so I will try not to use it as much. Trust and loyalty do not go hand in hand I say and I think it should be earned from all parties involved, just because I trust my leader doesn't necessarily mean I should trust the hands my leader has appointed. I believe that the hands should be known to the members of said family to a certain degree in order to obtain loyalty and.... The t word.

If I were in such a position I wouldn't expect any of the said above to give me anything, I should have to get to know my family and earn it. It works both ways.

As much as I tried though, I could not refrain from using the word trust."

Jaded smiled as she listened to the people ahead of her and the original speaker. She had her own thoughts of course and she knew from which this discussion had stemmed.

You have just created a link that I do not understand. Yes, I trust my leader or I would not be here. That doesn't mean I know the right hand of the family yet. It does not mean I know everyone in my family yet. So no I can't see how I would automatically trust someone. Trust and Loyalty are not automatic things. People that want them, need to work for them.

If my leader dies I do not owe anything to their chosen hands. There is no link that says I must join the hand should my leader dies because I trusted my leader. To me that is not how trust works and certainly not loyalty.

So yes, just because my leader picked their hands does not mean I automatically trust them. It does not mean I am automatically loyal to them. All I owe is my hard work, loyalty and trust to my leader. To help him rebuild a district and city. 

The streets had been filled with speeches about the recent war and new families, which was a great thing.  But it was nice to start seeing some debatable topics again.  He listened to the man's thoughts, nodding as he asks some great questions. 

You bring up a great questions, and some really valid points.  I would hope that members have the same loyalty and amount of trust for the hands as they do the leader.  This is mostly because there may be times when one of the hands are in charge, and considered to be the temporary leader if the actual leader is away.  If a leader trusts them to do a great job, the family should show respect. 

That being said, I think that the hands have to earn that loyalty and respect, just the same as the leader.  Yes, when you join a family, you chose that leader, you should be loyal and show them respect.  But a leader has to prove themselves in a way, showing the family that they can take care of them.  The same goes for the hands.  They have to prove themselves worthy of the respect and loyalty, by showing the family that they are competent and capable of leading if necessary. 

I agree that the hands have to earn the respect, loyalty and trust of the members, just like I would expect a leader would. Yet, just like I wouldn't expect someone to join a leader without the intention of (eventually) going to be loyal to them and trust them with their lives. 

JadedButterfly you say that you trust your leader or you wouldn't have joined them. But you say you do't automatically trust someone? Did you trust them before you joined them, and if so, why can't this apply to their hands? I hope you can expand upon this.

I agree with you, Cole, in that the right hand is the leader in some situations and I think it's actually dangerous if you don't trust them or are loyal to them (they are, after all, an extension of the leader).

Intrigued by such a topic.. Carnival, says a few words of his on regarding it.

-It is earned. Had to rethink my words couple of times, but whenever i went at it, always came to the same conclusion, it is earned. Communication being a must, and knowing their work they have put on around is essential too. Personally what i think.

I consider the current crop of leaders before I ever consider who I will speak to in terms of joining. I am extremely fussy. This means that I put in the effort to speak to a leader before just accepting any old invite that may be tossed my way. I want to know if there are things we see similarly. Or things that maybe we share in the form of values before I join them.

When I join someone I am not thinking, "Oh I will stay here two weeks and move on." When I join someone I am looking at the odds of how permanent it will be. How likely I am to find myself in that wonderfully fitted coffin that everyone gets at the end of their lives. I want to know if my leader is worth the hard work. If I join someone, it is because they are.

You are right, loyalty isn't automatic. However, there is a sense of loyalty when you join a leader that you should have. A loyalty to being the best that you can be for that leader. That should a war break out tomorrow that you would be joining alongside them in any way that you were needed. A lot of people don't have that depth of loyalty. People will change sides to save themselves. They have a loyalty to themselves and that's fine. That is how they wish to live their lives. I want something more.

But because I give all that loyalty to my leader does not make it automatic that I would do so for the hands. It wasn't the hands I had the in depth conversation with. It wasn't the hands that I used when I considered my choices. It was strictly the leader.

Does that mean later on down the road that I will not trust the hands? No. I could very well end up trusting them eventually.  Trust isn't something I randomly throw around though. I imagine it would take them time to trust me as it would for I to trust them.

You offer valid points.

However, that basic sense loyalty you speak of? I think it should apply to the hands too. Perhaps not the left hand, but since a right hand is commonly seen as the extension of the leader, I think you should have that sense of loyalty, if only a bit less, to that person too. Real trust, loyalty and so forth can and probably will be gained later on. 

And of course, I wouldn't really connect with a Right hand that's silent all day and doesn't connect me with me. I would try and approach him though, and hopefully have those same in-depth conversations that you speak of. But indeed, that has to come from both sides.

Well I think we may have to just disagree on that part. Maybe in time I will trust the right hand as much as I do my leader. I don't think it is a mandatory and automatic thing though.

We both have our points for our stances.  I can appreciate where you are coming from but I feel that trust and loyalty don't get passed along just because I trust one.

''Can we at least agree that you should trust the hand(s) of your leader? Your leader trusts the hand, you trust your leader. Why shouldn't you trust the hand? Is it because you don't ''pick'' the hand like you ''picked'' the leader you joined? Is it weird or normal not to trust the hands like your leader?''

 I think this is one of the best questions i have heard recently. This is, to me, where the streets begin to return to normal and i thank you for that Aleksandr.

There are levels and degrees of loyalty. We know this. To put it in a way we can understand, there are those that are Disloyal, Those who are loyal, those who are undecided, and those who are willing to Take A Bullet. What does that mean? It means that at any moment you can lose the loyalty of your members by making decisions. But for them to be loyal to you is an actual conscience decision. One makes a choice to be loyal to their leader. To be loyal to your leader is to be loyal to their rules set before you. It is to find yourself obedient in their wishes, is it not? 

To trust, that is where things get different. Trust is much more of an emotional response. It is not a flippy floppy choice from the members, it is a light heartiness from an individual to another or if there is a lack of trust, it is much more of a heavy weight like feeling, a burden. To trust someone is to have a consistent loyalty to the end of time. To break that persons trust is a sign that loyalty may not be the same ever again. 

Yes these two can go hand in hand. I don't believe they are the same. While one can trust a leader and be loyal one can still not trust a leader and be loyal. One can not say, I trust my leader but i am disloyal, for it contradicts its very meaning. 

When it comes to hands. One should be, in my opinion, always loyal to the hands as well. The hands are part of the body, which is the family. They are not their for their own personal gain, at least they shouldn't be. They are meant to be there for your betterment. If you are not loyal to your leaders hands then are you really loyal to your leader? The question is answered with an immediate no. 

Can one be loyal and not trust the hands? Yes. I am convinced you can agree that you will follow your leaders decisions and trust their decisions. To not trust the hands of ones family is not wrong. 

Should one Trust the hands of a family? It must be earned. Again with my understanding of the words we use in our language, trust is not something freely given out by any man woman or child. Even a baby cries when placed in another persons arms. Trust is something a hand should strive for. If a hand is not striving for their members they are doing a disservice to their leader and their members. 

Finally, before i catch the bus ride home, this is a two way street with Trust. If you want trust you have to earn it, as others have to earn yours. Some desire gifts for trust and others quality time. Neither is wrong it is just the way they best receive love. But both ways are calls to action. One must act for trust.

I really do have to skidaddle now but if for some reason my name is mentioned from someone in philadelphia or new york its the craziest thing i can be here in minutes. So if not thankyou for this conversation and Cole_Holland, jadedButterfly, TadePimmel and the great TheCookieMonster i enjoyed your comments as well. 

Gollum scurries off to her little bus stop route ready for the next bus to pick her up and take her home. 

To me loyalty and trust ,as far as it concern your leader, go hand in hand. Are you loyal to your crew leader? Yes?

Then you trust them. You may disagree with a decision or an action they take but it's their intentions that you trust. You trust that in their mind they want the best outcome for you and the rest of your crew. When you start questioning their intentions then you start questioning your loyalty. I don't see a point in anyone beeing loyal to a crew leader whose intentions are not in favor of their members.

For the hands, it is a different situation as they are not your choice. Your obedience to them is because your leader expects it from you.

And keep in mind that a crew leader has nothing more to gain other than the progression of his own familly. A hand though, is not at the top of their career yet. They might have personal goals that may not include the rest of the crew. So these mights and ifs are making trust harder when it comes to anyone else besides my crew leader.

So to me, loyalty and trust goes only to your leader.

If you trust your leader, you trust in their decision to allow the Right Hand to run the family while they are away. You trust them to call the shots if the leader may be asleep in a time of war since that is the role the leader you trust has given them. Surely then it's only natural to trust in their judgement and thus trust in this Right Hand, or even Left Hand also.

As for loyalty, for me the loyalty is to the family as a whole not just the leader. When I wear the badge, it is that of my family name not just my leaders and so I am not loyal to a specific person, I am loyal to this family and what it stands for.

As for respect, yes the hands should be respected. One is the second in command, and as stated previously is first in command if the leader should be absent. They are also button men and thus should receive respect of everyone in the Mafia community and likewise of the Left Hand or Consigliere, they have earned their button and should be respected. They are also an advisor and can be called upon to command the family if the leader and right hand are absent.

Bespoke straightens himself from his lean against a lamp post and clears his throat.

"DocHoliday Sir you spoke a fair bit of sense there. I agree with with you.  There is a structure for a reason or what is the point of a structure.  The Right Hand man is every way as important as the boss and should take the bosses place if he unfortunately meets his maker as well as the LHM moving to RHM and then the LHM position is chosen from the movers and shakers below them based on stability and their hard work donating into the family. Oh!......"

Bespoke pauses and quickly looks at his pocket watch and start to hastily make his way a couple of blocks over to extort the local bakery shop owner protection money that was overdue.

"See you around ladies and gents!" Bespoke says as he tucks the watch back into his waistcoat pocket. "Duty calls"

Reason was walking down a street with nothing on his mind until a man asked him a question. To that, Reason had no trouble answering him.

"Of course you should trust the hands of your leader just like you trust your leader. Let me tell you why. I know you didn't pick the hands that came into power working for your leader. They might not be your favorite. You might think that they're dumb-witted or can't make decisions, but you should absolutely respect them. You should respect them because your leader picked them to represent him. They help the family when the leader isn't around. They make decisions when the leader isn't around during a crisis. Even if you don't think they are fit for the role, they most probably are. If you think you have a good leader, then that means his hands were chosen for a valid reason. It means your leader trusts his hands to make work done under his leave and absence and they are there to make sure everything is in order in the crew. Like I said earlier, they represent him. So, yes, respect should be accorded with those positions."

Reason continued walking the street in the dark, returning home after a long day's work. 

''Can we at least agree that you should trust the hand(s) of your leader? Your leader trusts the hand, you trust your leader. Why shouldn't you trust the hand? Is it because you don't ''pick'' the hand like you ''picked'' the leader you joined? Is it weird or normal not to trust the hands like your leader?''

The leader has the highest command and you may not respect the hand but you should be listening to any orders they give out, my family line has been in crews where i trust the hand more then the leader.

My line has also ran crews that had members souly based on them loving my rhm.

Also it is always best to surround yourself with people better then you, most people hated my family line, but they always had good people with them, so it balanced out most times.

Making another brief appearance after some other lovely chaps decided to speak.

While everyone has made awesome points and great chatter about this, I really see eye to eye with Jaded in all honesty.  I mainly join a crew based off the leader and the direction the leader is going.  My father and fathers father, is tired of seeing coffins.  With it being said if I know the RHM/LHM is only an added plus to joining the crew, but that being said this whole thing can go all the way back to should you respect/loyalty to that said CL's GF simply put because "The CL is an extension to the GF and does work etc... for the GF".  And once again I say no respect and loyalty is earned and not given.

But while we are on the subject I would like to touch base a tad bit,  I heard all this talk about RHM this or RHM that and that RHM is an extension to CL. Back in my fathers journals LHM's played a important role and that was more so talking with the crew, getting to know people, organizing things, making things keep active.  While RHM did things for the CL in mass speeches for crew collecting SR's and passing them up to CL.  Everything has gotten on the lazy side now and LHM is more of a person in a shiny suit that has their feet up on a desk all day and contributes little, a good portion of them don't even have any bodyguards.

So on another note, why am I going to have respect/loyalty to one that cannot even protect themselves? Contributes little to the crew, yet alone district.  My father has seen crew members take bigger leaps then the own RHM/LHM to protect their district and offer up millions to remove/protect GF's off a bounty board.  So when you ask do they deserve respect/loyalty? While some may yes, I personally won't give it to them unless it's earned.  If I have to earn respect/trust/loyalty for a button, they will earn my respect/loyalty the same way.

Heads back to the casino for a long night of Harty.

A hand is another level of leadership and deserves very much respect and loyalty.  If you cant trust your right hand man then most likely you cant trust your leader.  

Fortunately, my answer to this question is rather easy. In the wake of the war it was Madara, my boss's RH, who brought me into Vongola Famiglia and effectively saved my life. After the war settled down, I got the chance to meet Martii in a more conventional way, but my connection to this crew began with the RH. That makes it pretty easy for me to trust him.

However, I don't think RHs are to be universally trusted. Not because they all have malicious intentions, but simply because they must earn it as an individual separate from the CL. In the last week, we've seen leadership in every city fall apart. Without a genuine trust and respect for RHs as individuals, how can they demand anything from you when they need it most? Sure, we trust the RH while our boss is alive, but if I never spoke to him once during our career together, I'd be hesitant looking to him for trust or leadership if something were to happen to our boss.

So when he's your boss's RH he needs to interact and generate the relationships in the crew that will make it easier when that trust is needed most. Otherwise, when the boss dies, you're just another panicked unsponsored.