maybe the made man is disturbed that they were a made man too. after all, it is the leader that presses that button. they dont ask their member every time whether they want the promo

Aleksandr, look at post war. There werent many choices on who to join.

Look at now, there are people in districts but some are already full. If you intended to join someone who is already full with no other auths in their district you may end up with a crappier leader than you wanted. People's ideas on leaders are different.

It's their own choice if they're loyal or not, right? If they don't want to act as ''cannon fodder'' then they can do so. The vast majority of them will die when there's a takedown or war anyway.

The choice is still clearly there?

but how would an attacker know if someone is loyal or not? they won't, so they kill them all, and then a member who was never asked to be promoted who is not loyal to his leader dies because of a game change he had nothing to do with

It's not really. If all you can see is the disloyal and loyal crap then you have no idea about choices.

A person should be able to chose to fight or not. Whether they continue to live is a different story but choice should still be there.

You should be able to play your character the way you want to. If you want to be a backstabbing twat then do so. Others are more loyal and it all plays out in the wars. Regardless of what they have their scroll down set to.

Then you get shot anyway because the attacker knows all mademan+ must die to take the shot on the CL.

Didn't you need to be online in the last 24 hours? And most likely you'll die in the war anyway.

maybe the made man is disturbed that they were a made man too. after all, it is the leader that presses that button. they dont ask their member every time whether they want the promo

I think you can tell your leader if you don't want your promo, and unless it's a really shit leader he'll honor your request. If he's that shit though, why did you join him? Still enough choices to be had, even post war. 

Not really, since its private info, you are cannon fodder from the attackers anyway because they will kill every one preventing them from taking the shot on the CL. Its not like they send out a mass mail asking who is disloyal and safelist them just on their word.

See my earlier points: You would very likely die anyway in the war. Now you're just an important target and will be treated as such.

If the relationship was shit, I would have ended it? Same applies here.

so you should be killed for bein active? and it would only be most likely if this change is in because then they will all die anyway.

so you have to be stuck at wise guy forever to live, sounds fair. i mean its not like everybody wants to enjoy playin the game and the benefits of ranking. people should definitely die for wanting to play.

people join people for all sorts of reasons. i cant imagine that works out well for most people, and quite a few regret their choice or never get attached enough to care about their leader. ppl were allowed to move crew up until the 28th of june, and now what? now you get to know your leader, decide you dont like them, then you either have to sit at wise guy forever and not rank if this change is brought in to make sure you dont die for someone you dont like, or you rank up and die for someone you dont like, or you tell them you want to move and risk dying anyway because some leaders dont like people moving. in fact, most leaders dont. thats why there was special thing brought in that allowed people to move til 28th.

I fear the purpose of the suggestion is being lost in this argument and it effectively doesn't matter. In the present system; whether you're loyal or disloyal to your CL is also unknown to anyone who attacks your city. And if you're an active Made+, you will likely be targeted. In the system I propose, whether you're loyal or disloyal to your CL is unknown to anyone who attacks your city. And if you're an active Made+, you will likely be targeted.

I fail to see how this endangers Made Men any more than they already are. If you're offline for more than 24 hours; you don't even get factored into it. And I feel like if you're waging a war and don't have enough guns to even cover their active Mades, this suggestion changes little.

So Squishy you were looking for a money-in money-out balance to this change; have any of my revisions provided that balance? CL can't shoot or he forfeits his protection, CL gives up BG efficacy, etc. I want to work through this instead of just argue about CL-member relationships that won't change whether this is implemented or not.

Darkholme, as I said, I think it would be relatively rare for some random reluctant Made Man to survive the war somehow. It has nothing to do with restricting people to play, but more with how wars play out and how the rank of Made Man is thought to be holy (by most regimes).

I align my thoughts with Orsik, who has pretty much summed up what I tried to explain in my previous posts.

in the suggestion you propose any active made + would DEFINITELY be targeted. not likely. definitely. even ones who have been offline 23 hours would be killed.

your suggestion says to me if you dont like your leader then dont ever rank up or dont ever come online if you want any chance of living at all through a war where you dont want to fight along with your leader.

i dont like it sorry

Isn't that what you should be doing anyway if you don't like your leader? Why rank up for that guy? I have never understood this. I think Squishy raises some valid concerns, but then again the principal objective of the members is to be there for, provide and help their leader, so preventing him from dying (even in a clean job in which they'll live) should be the point of them being in that crew, right? These are Made Man after all, trusted by their leader and expected to back their leader in sticky situations. 

So down to the big wording of choice.  In your proposal, the game forces gameplay in the way that if you wanted to remove a shitty crewleader because of bad decisions by them but preserve his crew, you would be unable to do that.

I would like to note that attempts on a CL's life while he is "protected" would not be made known to him (similar to trying to shoot someone that's been shot at in the last 20 minutes). So if you want to remove a CL; you could try shooting at him and seeing if his men are disloyal. Then as you remove loyal members, you keep trying to kill him until it goes through. In my opinion, if players understood what the feature meant and used it as I intend it to be used; you should have some disloyal men in bad CL's crew. And in my opinion, if the "shitty" CL (which unfortunately is a subjective qualification) has loyal members that want to die with him; I don't see why their loyalty should be tested after he's died (and there's no longer any logical reason to keep up the fight) instead of before (when that loyalty could actually accomplish something).

So in my opinion, the current system forces even loyal members to accept their CL's death and move on when they would have preferred to fight and protect him.

Can you give me a realistic way that you can remove said crewleader?  Right now, with out any risk of anyone finding out, a single well placed shot ends it all, and everyone can move on happy.  With your system in place, it requires either killing off a fuckton of innocents, or getting many many many people involved which will kick off a proper war rather than a single assassination.

I think a realistic way would be as I've described above. First, try shooting the CL. If you can't kill him, it means there's loyal members left. So you first-wave guys who you think would be most loyal then try again. If a CL has Made Men in his crew willing to die for him, I think that should be an option. Because frankly, even when removing the "worst" CLs; not everyone moves on happy. His RH? LH? Mades? I feel like those men should have the opportunity to fight and die for their leader instead of just cycling through crews because one of the other leaders didn't like their CL. And if that opportunity to fight only comes after the leader is dead; it's no surprise we don't see them fighting cause it wouldn't be advantageous.

I just don't think the game features should force you to kill innocents and take away the option for retiring someone with a single bullet without collateral damage.

I don't consider loyal Made Men willing to die for their leaders "innocents". As a matter of fact, I don't really consider anyone "innocent" in this game; if you've been promoted to Made Man you should know that means it comes with the chance of dying for your leader. And if CLs have built a crew of trusted and loyal men; it should take more than a single bullet to remove them.