I apologize for the quick thread here, but I'd like some clarity on the ideas of when and where opinions are deemed "insulting" before others act on them. I have been around the game for quite some time and within the last year or so of my time in MR, I have seen people use OOC as a way to voice their opinions of players and hide behind some sort of "OOC defense" to escape any sort of punishment. In addition, we have seen wars start as a result of insults thrown about in #divinelunacy directly from player to player. I'd like to find out user opinions of punishment:

If I saunter to the streets and call a Godfather a "shitty waste of oxygen," is this deemed worthy of being shot?

If I post an OOC thread insulting a crewleader for not posting more and calling him a "mouth breathing faggot," am I free to do so because we're in OOC?

If I march into #divinelunacy and claim that an entire city is a "breeding ground for cunts and the entire city should go rape themselves stupid as they are unfit to lick the sweat off my balls," should I receive some sort of punishment?

In my opinion, all three of these are worthy of at least some sort of punishment, whether it is death, demotion, or even a ban if things escalated far enough.

Where do you all draw the line for these types of actions? Do you believe that there is some sort of "OOC defense" for opinions?

In short:

Street (!!!)

------------

OOC (!?!) ____________

IRC (Meh)

For clarification:

(!!!) = Major, I suggest you keep offensive opinions to yourself or suffer the dire consequences.

----------- = Dashed line, divides Street and OOC but they are still grouped together as part of the game itself.

(!?!) = I wouldn't advise shooting your mouth off too much here, you may suffer consequences. Bit of a grey area. ___________ = Solid black line. Anything past this, do not punish. Fuck off. IRC is seperate. No, I don't care if we use it for MR, it's seperate. I've been guilty of considering IRC as part of the game and requested MR punishment for someone saying stuff on IRC. I'm sure most of us have. However, it should never be carried over. It is an optional extra, the game is not an extension of IRC (which is becoming the case very swiftly unfortunately).

(Meh) = See above. When in a position of power which is being threatened and is discovered on IRC, it is hard to see the solid black line and punishment is often dished out for IRC logs and such. I believe that is wrong.

I hope that helps.

Yeah, the solid black line is supposed to go under OOC. It didn't.

Diagram failure.

Considering the fact that you can kill someone for absolutely no reason at all, even if OOC or IRC are considered "poor justifications", it's good enough for me. I've never bought into the idea that some avenues are safe ground for acting in a way that would get your ass beat if it was done in real life.

To make it simple, don't piss off the wrong people no matter where you do it, and you should be fine.

I don't even see OOC or IRC as poor justifications. The majority of people who use both IRC and have a Mafia account, are exactly the same in game and on IRC. They scheme and plan on IRC for moves to make in game and are then surprised when they die for it. 

If you can't differentiate between the two, then you deserve everything you get.

I've found it to be an extremely rare occurence when someone is killed by another player for their activity on IRC or in the OOC forum and they've turn out to be completely innocent.

~T~

This might sound a bit warped, but given the fact we've gone down the road of treating IRC as a part of the game, I see OOC as the only place where people might be granted a bit more scope for voicing opinions.

Of course, if you start calling a Godfather a fuckwit in the OOC forum, I'd still expect you to be shot for it, but as long as things are constructive and eloquently put, I've never seen a problem with complete honesty in the OOC forum. I might've said the same for IRC at some point, but not anymore.

I see OOC as distinct from the game, despite the fact it's on the website, whereas I don't see IRC in that way.

In my opinion it's hard to say.  Unfortunately because we are using computers and not really talking face to face...it is quite difficult to see the intentions behind the words.  Like if I were to say "Rourke smells like an unwashed gym sock" no one could really tell if I were kidding or being honest.  Usually if someone shoots their mouth off in IRC, it shouldn't be taken into consideration but I have seen some dire plots that have been formed within the confines of IRC that were intended to be carried out IG...so it's a matter of trying to see the intentions behind the words.  Is this person just being an asphalt licking worm who has every intention of bringing their IRC plots to MR or are they just firing off their mouth cannons to get a reaction like a little child does to see what their mom will say.  

I don't know if that makes sense but to clarify...anything said IG in the streets should be taken as they are for what they are.  Anything in OOC is debatable where one must use their discretion unless they are truly and openly disrespecting high ranking members. IRC is also that gray area where most people are just bantering around unless their ebilness is really and honestly intended to be carried out IG.

I don't know what OOC stands for so I'll just ignore that :P

I think anything on the website should be considered as part of the game - you are speaking with your character's name after all.

If your character said it then it's reasonable that your character will be targetted, regardless of what "mood" you're in.

This will self-regulate anyway. If someone wants to shoot people for losing an argument then fine, that's what mobsters do anyway :P

Out Of Character.

~T~

This issue has been resolved conclusively. When you are on IRC, especially if you are in a game-related channel, you should be acting in character. At the very least, you will receive in character consequences for your disrespectful IRC actions, so make sure to consider the in character ramifications prior to acting.

Ask yourself this- if you're not willing to die for what you have said or done, why did you say it or do it in front of everyone? I believe in freedom of speech, so often I will allow people to say far more than they are allowed to before disciplinary measures are taken (in game or on IRC). Too often people say something and then try to hide away behind the safety net of "OOC" comments. Fine, some to a point should be allowed. Ultimately, that's not how this place works, though.

The line should be drawn where the people in power say it is drawn. Do I believe wars should be started over drug prices on IRC? No, that's retarded. On the same side of the coin, If someone comes into my upper structure room on IRC, designed for use of people in my Upper Tier in the GAME, and calls me a donkey humping whore, do I kill them?

Yes. Even though it was so and so OOC calling me those names, they came into a place where I conduct in game business and ruined the atmosphere.

OOC forums, IRC, all of it is the same. In my opinion, if you want to bitch you MM in private. Or make a back alley meeting place. Or, if it's on IRC, you create a private channel. Or use a PM. All of these places are PRIVATE so that your actions cannot gain repercussions.

If you are in a channel that was created for the SOLE PURPOSE of aid for this game (like #crewleader, or a family channel), and you start acting like (after an instance I saw today) an utter twat to a Godfather, why the hell would you expect to live? Especially when you've decided to make fun of their IG character for OOC reasons (like their age)?

Like I said. Don't be an idiot. If you're not willing to get punished for your actions in ANY forum, then don't say it.

I'm not making much sense. It's too hot here. I suppose I can try and sum everything up by saying, "I believe in freedom of speech, but there is a difference between being a dick and stating an opinion". It's called respect. It's called tact. Tact is the art of criticizing or critiquing without gaining an enemy. If you can't say things with tact, then why should you be given a pass or grace from punishment in any forum?

Streets: Everything you say relates to the game

OOC: You are still in the game but mechanics are changed so you refer to a player and how they play vs. speaking about them as their character.  This shouldn't excuse people coming to OOC and harassing others or saying things they'd never say IRL.

IRC: Although in theory, IRC does not affect the game, in reality, IRC and the game are inextricably linked.  Therefore it stands to reason that decorum should reflect this.

If in IRC you have a friendly relationship with someone and can jokingly call them a name and BOTH of you understand that it is a joke, then no harm no foul.   But if you come into a family channel or DL and call someone a name like whore, bitch, cunt, moron, fag etc, first off, those are hardly "haha funny" names and secondly, if you don't have a pre-established relationship with the other person that says it's ok for you to say these things, then don't be surprised if it makes them angry or is seen as disrespectful.

Having fun and joking is one thing, not knowing where the boundaries lie is another.

The question at hand is "Where do you draw the line?" To be honest, in any forum or gathering of 2+ people, you should be able to act and speak with respect. While certain disregards for manners in various ways and forums may have dire consequences, Butt_Ox has the right idea on this one.

The examples given here are based on insults. Mindless verbal folly used to bring someone down for your own amusement. While I can't wave my finger at the entire userbase, you can still handle SOME type of restraint, be it IRC, OOC Forum, or in-game.

As long as IRC is supported by the game, we won't play FULL In-Character. We will have our "bloodline entities", represented by some type of alias on IRC, or OOC. Any attempt to avoid going by a past alias is viewed as "incog", and highly discouraged. When, in actuality, those that incog are truly playing the game correctly, if their intentions aren't down the tubes. I used to believe that when I made a new character, I was to take on a new persona. However, in recent times, that ritual has slowly faded because of the lack of emphasis put on "dying". We play it like a game, therefore we never truly live out the life of a mobster. IRC will always support the former, and until we can get past that "OOC Entity" lifestyle, we'll still have these problems.

If I march into #divinelunacy and claim that an entire city is a "breeding ground for cunts and the entire city should go rape themselves stupid as they are unfit to lick the sweat off my balls,"

Liverpool?

My hero.

...

I'd insult the fuck out of you back here, but I wouldn't want to use a good discussion to slag you both off. IRC it is. :P

I wouldn't say it anywhere. No matter where you say it, it is still disrespect, and you should be punished the same.