Ever had a police officer tap you on the shoulder during a street speech? Me neither!

I largely agree with your points about how "some of the time when people speak above their station they offer a worthwhile input even though this can be viewed as disrespectful". You also know that the people who do so often place their life at risk. If someone were to knowingly step above their rank to critique a particular issue, then it's certainly within their rights to do so if they're willing to accept the consequences. This list, however, is largely meant as a source of guidelines for those new to this world. If someone chooses to forfeit their life by being disrespectful that can be a bold statement... but for one to do so in ignorance, I think we can agree, is a different matter.

I'm not sure what to say regarding your statements on entertainment, as I don't have enough information to make an informed judgment on your preferences. Apparently, you are qualified to do so, so I'll defer to your judgment.

I can't do anything about your ignorance and your sexism regarding women. We can vote now, and we're just as good at thinking, fighting, and screwing.  Regardless, I can point you towards Bonnie Parker, Vivan Chase, Stella Dickson, and Edna Murray for women who got involved in a life a crime. Is it so hard to believe that with the proper circumstances on of them could lead an organization of their own? One thing I think that causes an undue amount of angst in this place as that people say "we need to be realistic" as if there's some cookie cutter pattern of the way the next decade or two plays out. We're not here acting according to what history says we should do- we've entered into this life and we're writing our own history.

I'd hardly call this handholding. I'd call this an attempt to lower the amount of stupidity in street speeches and increase the amount of quality discussion, which is something we both seem to be interested in. While in a perfect world, everyone new to this thing would spend their first days figuring out what to do for themselves and intelligently reflect on what they should do, the reality is that the world is full of busy people and stupid people. Sometimes both. If this list means that there's one less fuck up spewing nonsense in the streets, then I'm satisfied.

And I'm not sure what you have against the business district, but I didn't mention it at all- it seems like you've veered off on an unrelated tangent! How embarassing. Perhaps you could explain the relationship between me saying "Do not be an idiot in the streets who is unoriginal and ignorant" and fluffy poo poo business district owners?

My reference in relation to preference on entertainment was due to the conversation we had over in OOC where we discussed stories in the streets. I'm not a particular fan, you are. I took this difference of opinion on entertainment, to equate to a difference of opinion on entertainment. If you believe I'm ignorant or sexist towards women you need to have to your head examined. I was making reference to the fact that historically (in real life) no women led organizations within the Mafia during this period. That isn't ignorance or sexism. The fact the closest examples you could reference to disprove this don't actually disprove this at all should demonstrate that. My mistake was not clearly highlighting the OOC elements in my previous response.

Similarly I doubt any of them doubled as a professor and tried to educate other members of organized crime on how to speak. The reason I said "female professor" rather than "male professor" is because you're female and trying to educate other members of organized crime on how to speak.

I have nothing against the business district. What I do have a problem with is people forgetting they use these businesses as fronts for their criminal activity. My reference wasn't to the business district, it was to the individuals who operate businesses and become so embroiled within them, they forget they are a mobster. How embarrassing that you completely missed that and tried to twist it into a misguided swipe at the business district.

The whole point of my response, as I identified by saying "my point is", was that we should make allowances for where we are. You clearly didn't understand this with your incorrect assumptions regarding my opinion on women. I don't judge the mobsters on our streets by their gender, I do so on their ability. I ignore history and encourage others to do the same. Whilst I'm sure no Captain appeared with a checklist on public speaking in history, the fact that you've chosen to was completely ignored until I was using it as an example of allowing for where we are rather than what actually occurred/would occur. I focused on the outcomes that abiding by this list could cause if universally adopted, not the fact that they were presented by someone who would never have historically done so. Neither was your gender considered positively, negatively, or at all. We should make allowances for where we are.

I didn't say there was a relationship between you saying "Do not be an idiot in the streets who is unoriginal and ignorant" and fluffy poo poo business district owners. I think you'll find I mentioned off hand, people owning businesses and becoming embroiled within them and thus not actually being mobsters. I wouldn't want you to have to consider my embarrassment at further veering us off on an unrelated tangent by discussing any potential correlation between those two.

I would strongly advise you do not attempt to put any further words into my mouth and either stick to the ones I actually say or move on.

~T~

Mr. Tallien,

 Sticking to the words you actually say... you said "I was making reference to the fact that historically (in real life) no women led organizations within the Mafia during this period." and "Similarly I doubt any of them doubled as a professor and tried to educate other members of organized crime on how to speak". You went on to say "I ignore history and encourage others to do the same". This inconsistency puzzled me, and has apparently led to some misunderstandings in this conversation.

With regards to the accusations of sexism, I was only responding your statement "But then I wouldn't agree with a female professor trying to educate me on what I said...". The word "female" is present there as a qualifier to "professor", so I obviously assumed you meant what you'd exactly said. If your statement had been "But then I wouldn't agree with a professor trying to educate" (with no reference to gender) I never would have responded in such a fashion. If "female" was merely an unnecessary confusing word in your statement, which you seemed to indicate later, as opposed to an important distinction and adjective to professor, then all of my comments regarding the female gender are certainly in error. 

With regards to the business district, I apologize for the confusion. You said "I can't help but seeing this as a further attempt to make everyone a friendly, smiling, business owner who happens to commit the occasional petty crime or two." and the tone of that statement is certainly negative. Since I never once referenced the business district in either my original speech or comments I had only this one negative statement of yours to interpret. I'm glad to see that you have nothing against the business district. I certainly agree that there is a subsection of people in this world that tend to place the majority of their energies on their shop and not what they actual signed up for, and that this is most distressing.

(I will say this- you mentioned that there were some OOC elements in your previous response. I do believe that this has been a muddying factor, as I tend to operate entirely in character and discount OOC information at every possibility. Since I have started this rare OOC note, I might as well continue: Tallien- I made an error in basing my response off your actual words when there was an inclarity present in them, rather than shining a light on said inclarities. Rather than ask a clarifying question like "Why does it matter that I'm a female professor?" or "Could you explain further your ideas regarding the business district?" I instead took unclear statements that you made and responded to them. This was my error, and I regret it. Socrates would certainly be very disappointed in me, and I am disappointed in myself for wasting a street debate with high potential due to my own failure to elucidate exactly what you meant.)

I'm getting bored of this now.

The words I actually said that you seemed to have missed again are "the fact that you've chosen to was completely ignored until I was using it as an example of allowing for where we are rather than what actually occurred/would occur". The reason I used the initial two quotes was to exemplify this. Historically these things would not have happened. Here we allow them to happen. We make allowances for where we are vs what actually occurred/would occur. I can't think of a better way of clarifying this incorrectly perceived inconsistency any further.

I've already explained why I incorporated the word female into my previous response. Female was an adjective to professor. The speaker was female. Including it allowed me to lead into exemplifying the point on allowances regarding female Captains, by using the pronoun 'she'. If you had assumed I meant exactly what I said, then you could not have veered so badly from my meaning. You made an assumption that this was used negatively, when in fact it was used merely as an adjective to aide the cohesion of the overall response.

The only OOC elements in my previous responses have been referenced, discussed and clarified. Indeed, I feel everything I said now has a very clear explanation as to why it was incorporated. Whilst I have stated that perhaps I did not make the OOC elements clear enough, attempts to make out enough ambiguity was present in my response to lead you into unfounded accusations regarding an apparant negative perception I may harbour towards women or the business district is laughable. I trust this is now resolved and we can now move on.

~T~

(aid, apparent)