well said scipita

walks up to scipita and shaked her hand

then walks over to rourke and starts talking to him

How could anyone turn down Rourke's incredible offer?! People must be lined up around the block right now!

I dunno, ironically the discussion was killed by people asking those who didnt want to discuss it (even though those people were, contrary to their claims, discussing it) to leave. It was all very counter-intuitive and rourke's offer was lost in the middle.

I thought this was a promising discussion, so lets try and keep the ball rolling.

Cato thinks for a second, and then an idea jumps into his head.

What do people think about there being different types of respect - on the one hand, respect because someone is active, vocal, intelligent and so on around the streets, but on the other hand because someone has a deadly gun, is tight-lipped and is quick to give out the back of his hand.

Which do people respect more?  And why?  Obviously the ideal would be some kind of combination - but I've always tended toward the mafioso who can speak his mind and does so well, rather than the one who hides behind his gun.  Thoughts?

I have to agree with you Cato, although

On the streets today alot of the mafiaoso's are intelligent and speak there mind, but on the other hand they have a deadly gun and they use it when it is needed. For someone to posess both is a great quality, and I do not think that people like this hide behind there gun.

I respect anyone who is higher ranked, stronger, or more well connected than I am; even if I do not feel they have particularly earned it. Why? Because I am here to make money. I cannot make money if I am dead in a ditch.

As for those lower ranked than myself, they can earn my respect; as I earned the respect of those above me when I was in their shoes.

Godmother Rourke. I sure hope you didn't think I was ignoring you by taking so long to respond. I really don't know how long it's been since you made your comment, so I do apologize for the delay. I'm glad you've stuck around to hear what I had to say since you've now made this debate further worth discussing.

In my defense, I wasn't mocking your member. I was mocking all wise guys. And your member got to be the lucky one whose speech I decided to stop by and grace with my presence. I mock wise guys, not because they are new to this world, but because they are so worthy of being mocked. I mock them because I'm not allowed to mock Bosses, and Consigs, and Dons, and Godfather/mothers. And in case you were wondering about that - I was just kidding there. I wouldn't really mock Godfather/mothers because I hold them in high esteem.

That being said, I don't hold wise guys in high esteem. As your member says - Respect is earned, not given, and there is no wise guy out there that has yet earned my respect. And they won't until they have been given the opportunity to officially become members of their own family, at which point I may respect them or I may not.

And while I'm on that topic, let me tell you why there are Made Men out there that I won't respect either - they haven't earned it. Because as much as their family says they have earned it, it simply isn't true. What is true is that it has become shockingly easy to become a Made Man in this world. (please insert your comment about how easy it was for me to become a made man here.) And if you take a sampling of a number of the crewleaders in this world, I imagine the number who don't even know who their Made Men are would be higher than we'd like to see.

Now, back to my issue with your member's speech. I wasn't really concerning myself with the topic he chose. I was more concerned with the timing of the topic. I understand topic after topic after topic will be rehashed by newer members of this community. In fact, older members will rehash a topic from time to time. I know this because I have done it a time or two. And been mocked for it a time or two. The mocking doesn't bother me because I have a thick enough skin to take it and a large enough mouth to respond.

Like I was saying - I am most concerned about the timing of these speeches. I feel like wise guys, in particular, are scrambling for topics to speak about just for the purpose of getting their Made Man pin. That bothers me. It may not bother anybody else, and God knows those who have power aren't going to look to me for assurance that they are doing the right thing. It bothers me because I don't think wise guys are putting in the effort they should in order to attain the rank of Made Man, and it bothers me that people choose not to speak in the streets until they are wise guys and confronted with the ultimatum that they SHALL speak in the streets or not get their Made Man pin.

As for my intentions with other threads, you can but speculate as to my intentions. My intentions are my intentions and mine alone. But since you're asking - and I believe you must be asking by calling my response ridiculous - I will go ahead and tell you. My intention is to help whoever asks. And it's to help them whenever they need it. But that doesn't mean I won't mock them. I will. It is, after all, my nature. But even DonPardo would tell you that in our communication after the fact, I made every effort to be helpful to him, and to apologize if he took offense. I do not, however, apologize for my feelings on this subject in general. After all, respect is earned, not given

Godmother Rourke. I sure hope you didn't think I was ignoring you by taking so long to respond. I really don't know how long it's been since you made your comment

Godmotha Scipita make her comment Sep 24, '09 16:51.

So, what's the solution?  Will, are you saying that a topic can be rehashed, just not by a Wise Guy?  I mean, if you take a really cynical view, then you can treat any statement by a WG as insincere, and merely a respect-earning tool.  But why stop there?  Why not extend it and say that any respect-earning speech etc, from gangster to WG, is merely a way of making sure one gets made.

Don't get me wrong, I'm also a cynic to a certain extent: I'm suspicious of WG's suddenly errupting in speech when it's their first speech etc etc.  But I think that our cynicism must be tightly constrained, otherwise we risk scaring people off the streets.  Better to have a WG make the effort in streets at all, than to only make an effort with his or her CL to get made.

But I agree about CLs not knowing who their mades are.  The_Messiah sat me down for a lengthy chat, and had been monitoring me closely for a long time before he even considered making me.  I think that's really the way it should be done.  Yet, ultimately, its up to each CL how he or she runs their family - maybe time will be the test - the close knit, well founded families will flourish, whereas the rag-tag ones where made is just another rank, will not.

No, that's not really what I'm saying.  All I'm really saying is that I'm not naive enough to think that topics won't be rehashed from time to time.  And I'm saying that a wise guy can do anything or everything imaginable to earn respect; he's just not worthy until he reaches Made, and even then may not be worthy.  And don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying that by virtue of the fact that I'm a Capo I am worthy of respect.  Look how long it's taken me to get here.  I'm clearly not worthy of respect.  But I make an effort to communicate with the masses, and I didn't wait until I was a wise guy to start making that effort.  So, I guess what I am saying is that a wise guy who has made the effort to be visible and to be heard from day one is much more likely to earn my respect when they become made than a wise guy who only started to speak as a wise guy because it was otherwise impossible to become made.   Does that make sense? 

And you're right.  I am a cynic.  But you're also right when you say our cynicism needs to be constrained or risk scaring people off the streets.   But let me temper that statement with this: if you truly want to be a leader in this world, you better grow a thick skin because once you become a leader, what I said to this particular wise guy (or others I have mocked) will pale in comparision to the abuse you will receive day in and day out as one wearing a bold suit. 

Let me explain what  I mean by earn respect.  First off I have only been in this world for almost a month and I have come to some conclusions.

  I am here to earn the respect of my Family first.  To do so I must earn and pay tribute to my Godmother.  I must show that I am here to stay.  To do so I am earning everyday.  I must speak to the masses.  To do so I must come into the streets and speak my mind.

 Will I hope this may help to clearify what I ment when I said, "Respect is not given, it's earned."  Maybe that will help clearify the point I was original making.  I guess I should have explained what respect means to me, instead of making a blanket statement and for that I can understand your critism Will. 

 But just because I am at Wise Guy status I do not feel even with my speech that I have earned enough respect to be pinned a Made Man.  If it were that easy everyone would be made.