Buttons don't push themselves. This change will enable PEOPLE to actually enforce their own rules on the business district.

Everyone in this thread so far, including those who didn't support the additional ideas, agrees that giving the mob forum control (enbabling "things get handled by people") is a good idea.

"to reward those who lack any ability to do anything other than pull a trigger. "

No. The only punitive measure available to us at present is a gun. If we intimidate a CL enough, they'll be forced to punish their member themselves. Or we'll be tyrants for taking it upon ourselves to punish said member without their CL's permission.

There are no other tools. This suggestion, IS giving us the tools to actually handle our business districts ourselves.

Squishy - I disagree 

Right now, there is role play and creativity yes but no functional set of controls that support it. 

So if I role play out a bar that isn't up to snuff lets say. I could pick pocket everyone who enters. But that's really it, any people get pick pocketed already all the time. So the stigma it SHOULD have is gone, because it was fought against enforcing because it doesn't hurt your stats in anyway be it defense or stealth or flight etc. So its a "fun" feature thats it. 

Really to be fair things like that should be evaluated when new ideas are put forward, instead of saying "Asking me to put in hard coded features will only serve to reward those who lack any ability to do anything other than pull a trigger.  This is a severe step backwards I think." You should be saying, what useless feature that is abused can be evaluated and updated or changed IF we implement this in its place. 

further more, from a role playing perspective long abandoned buildings don't just spring back to life because some nut job walks in 3 years later, ignoring the cobwebs and moss growing everywhere, orders drinks and walks out again.

this feature change will enable cities to keep the focus on active and alive businesses and giving us the ability to refuse people to just go bananas in a pile of rubble that we TRIED to role play out of the game but couldn't actually do so, because we wernt enabled to do so.

the change over from free-for-all to mob control will enable us to use tools to role play AND back-up with actions. rather than just role play and grit our teeth when Smuggy_McGrinningson flips us a middle finger as he leaves the non existant abandoned carpark which once had a pizzeria on top of it.

I am sad to see that this isn't going into play all because we fear "the top dog" abusing their power of it.

The main reason I liked this idea when it was brought to my attention was the ability to actually have some control over the business districts and what shops are really there, maybe even the ability to remove all the ones who have a crap ton of dead people as owners.

Yes, those in game can say "send your businesses to me", but to actually have the ability to take care of the district would be amazing.

I would think those in power, IF they started abusing it, would have a reaction to it, whether by the people or the admins their selves.

I have always pushed for role play to be more involved on this website. This would help those who actually care about it, as that is who usually only frequents the Business district, have more control over it. 

"If you can write me out an exhaustive list of all the methods that those at the top have tried that previously failed and explain why it failed.. and why it will continue to fail... then I would see more value in having to write a button that can be pressed when all else fails."

was this done for all suggestions that have been implimented?

was this done when you reduced the amount someone can be PP'd for? demanding "exhaustive" lists of methods used by players to stop others from just taking their on hand cash, when it was reduced?

No, would be the answer, because tools all players had available at the time were more relevent to them and that decision than we have to this one.

for example: to bank their cash. the shooting/demotion of people who PP'd those who didn't want to. they could PP back. 

If an "exhaustive list of all the methods that those at the top have tried that previously failed and explain why it failed.. and why it will continue to fail..." had been demanded then, there would have been NO need to reduce the amount of money any one could have had taken from them or a need to add mugging because the tools were there to stop this issue. You STILL went ahead and changed this, regardless.

were "exhaustive" lists demanded when mugging & the negative effects to the players being mugged were suggested. did you demand exhaustive lists when modifcations to the feature then included stealing their Gun? then to disregard out of hand with no details of the reason why and state people can simply role play out being PP'd for people who didn't want to be PP'd?

No.

It appears that you've got a chip on your shoulder regarding the business forum suggestions which keeps coming up, as I made sure to have a look at them and your responses before I posted this.

This time it's got the support of everyone who's come to this thread to comment. the single most influential and authorative player GF/chairman of the largest city. As well as people who are brand new to the shores and a range of inbetween.

All are saying they agree to this. You are the sole being to respond to this thread so far, refusing to accept the merits of this suggestion.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what you're even disregarding here as you didn't argue any of the suggestions with relevent points. I dont know if you're disagreeing about giving crews forum control, whether you're just disagreeing with the additional suggestions or all...

"Those in control can easily manipulate the business districts to however they want with an almost endless toolbox of the options they have now." <--- No, no they cannot. There isn't an almost endless toolbox of anything. What tool does anyone have other than their gun and threats of violence, when it comes to the business district? What manipulations can possibly be made? I can't stop jack from the west coast strolling in and making a business in our city's business forum, then coming back with his friends to troll us after his boss lets him know we're not happy about the fact.

It feel less like this is about arguing the suggestions and their pros/cons as it is about arguing against unwillingness to accept that simply leaving things the way they are wont now or ever, improve the situation in the business forum. No matter how much you demand people try to role play the issues away.

put it this way. If you have pping in the game, you enable people to use that function. (with the exception of +3 ranks) there is no way to stop people using that function if they choose. So, you've enabled a retaliation, a method of making it dangerous for people, allowing those who dont want to be PP'd to do something about it.

what we're asking for is the same here, you've enabled everyone to spam the forum, ignore the rules that are role played... and not given any means for an established family to ACTUALLY follow through with their role playing efforts to maintain the business district, as a business. There are NO tools, at our disposal, never mind an endless toolbox of options.

this is no different to giving the ability to PP unlimited quantities and refusing (because we can role play it away) to give mugging as a counter solution. We can't just role play PP'ing out of the game, believe me, I and others know :) *grins at melis*

I would like to make it clear. The suggestions DO NOT simply allow, total control of the forum, with the ability to go ahead and WACK! any and all threads on a whim. It will require a period of inactivity, as a prerequisit for removal of threads. Hence the need for a "lockdown" on the business, before it can be dismantled.

Obtaining business district control will allow a city's mob to control it's own business and enable us to role play the way you continually suggest we do, with a purpose. Rather than being told role play, and leaving us with the feeling of futility about the matter.

"I can entertain the idea of giving 1% of the game the power to silence the other 99%."

as the only person saying no, the 1% in this instance would be Squishy, so far :p

also. thats an extreme exaggeration and implies that all 6 cities have 1 GF each who have all decided for themselves to refuse ANYONE to make threads and/or post in the BD.

if the game ever got to that point, which it never has or will, then I guess the game's players have f*cked up in a severe way and the business district are the least of the games concerns.

giving the 1% the ability to gag the other 99%

because a few want a button to muzzle the entire userbase.

there it is again. The streets are COMPLETELY uncontrollabe. There will be NO muzzles attached to the masses and their ability to communicate to the entire game. Same goes for AAAALL the other districts.

again, 1% - 99%... ALL cities, all GFs all together refuse to allow any and all business forum activity. This isn't realistic AND if, like the PP feature and dueling feature, you feel there needs to come a set of practice standards from the admins to stop any given player from abusing said system, why is that too difficult for you to do?

"no one GF may control directly/indirectly the forums of another city's BD under pain of death" <--- there ya go buddy, now the 1% only muzzles 16.6%

If you'd like to continue believing that self governance will only breed tyranny, that says more about your faith in the user base and our species as a whole than it does about the feature its self.

I get that you don't want people to be able to abuse the feature. However isn't part of the "abuse" player made anyway by acceptance and inactivity.

When there are tyrants who dictate who does and doesn't become CL, in the past, it lead to them being risen against by the masses.

Why would you think this would be any different? If it happened at all, probably 1 city, or maybe a coast/central pairing might operate a "no outsiders doing setting up shop on our turf" policy. Well, that would then add a dynamic of relationships, would it not? Why wouldn't a mob, getting started in their city not want their own business owners to take priority, at least for a short time before allowing outsiders to contribute and set up in their city?

The potential for abuse is minimal, so long as you're not looking at it as if the feature is synonymous with giving each gf the one ring that controls them all.

" I hope as the years pass you will learn from those who have honed their craft and can make things happen without having to resort to pulling a trigger every time."

been playing since .org homie. seriously, i'm not some nubsauce who just walzted in from another game and decided i want to watch this one change into that one.

I'm well aware of how things can and have been run in the past. watched the orignal Dons run the game then -mrevilman run the game, watched roman run the game, watched coallition councils fail miserably to run the game. Nothing, NOTHING runs the game better than the knowledge that someone with a gun can get you, and you can't get them. that's the truth of the matter, no great dynasty on this game was run by role playing and an inability to back it up.

However, we're not here to talk about getting things to happen by use of guns or otherwise... as you can clearly read I have at NO time suggested I will personally shoot you, or your friends/family or anyone else, to make this change happen. So it doesn't matter if you're under the impression that my methods of pursuasion are limited to gun use or not. (the people coming out to thumbs up the suggestion should be an indication)

I'm here, to suggest a change to the game that I (and others) believe will benefit the game and argue the pros and cons.

Pros:

Greater roleplay involvement in the BUSINESS district (as opposed to just a local streets forum where anyone can do anything they feel with or without permission and lol as the city can't do anything about the fact you already got the business up for people to later use)

gives city control over who is running businesses in their city (as the case would be in the real mafia) with the ability to shut down a business without potentially starting conflicts, or causing grief with other CLs because we need to have THEM enforce our city's business rules on their members.

makes the enforcement of punitive measures a much easier, and most importantly tangible element in the game.

creates a new position/role for the mob of "business manager" who will be given the ability to clean up and maintain the business district.

Cons:

has potential (if admin rules not also added) for an abuse of the feature where no one gets to use the forum AT ALL, because of six tyranical dictators working in tandem. who should only be allowed to abuse and dictate other game playing elements like who lives/dies, gets authed, gets promoted beyond mademan etc.

It will require some coding to impliment

MIGHT require a trial and if it turns out it just can't be avoided that a slim minority WILL abuse it by finding loopholes to the admins preventative rulings, then the coding will have to be removed, it'll be chalked as a falure and we'll have to just say, well at least we tried something new with this thing that wasn't improving by being left the way it was

of 3 players asked (1 new 2 experienced) 1 said a month, another said 30 days and the 3rd said 5-7 days, for both.

I myself would suggest 7 days if the author is dead, for the IA period. as that is more than enough time for the next of kin to take over the business if thats what they want.  or 15-16 days (to allow for 2 week holidays) if the owner is alive but the thread has been left IA.

Any updates and/or further thoughts on the subject?