Listens carefully to hazelspoon.

Well that is very true the sponsor should alsways try there VERY hardest to support their associate and help him do the best.

Lights up his cigar.

Tony nods his head in agreement on most of it.

"I agree that if your associate is messing up that you should be penalized in some way too. But that is why you make sure that they wont be messin up when you bring them into the family as your associate and if they do and it was my associate. I would put the bullet in the back of his head for messin up and then take whatever punishement my Don thinks is right."

Nicky stops and lights a cuban, as he listens to the conversation unfolding in front of him. He takes a pull of his cigar, as he nods to some valid points being made. As the conversation dies down, he decides to speak up and say his piece.

"Now although I'm relatively new to this "thing of ours," I see what each side is trying to say, regarding this "associates" matter. I'm not a made man, myself, so I'm speaking purely out of knowledge, and not experience. However, I believe that if someone has vouched their name for me, for example, then it is my priority to do whatever is in my power to keep that name untarnished."

He pauses for a moment, and takes another pull of his cigar, and exhales slowly.

"If someone has sponsored me, then it's my obligation to not fuck up. However, it's the sponsors job to make sure you tow the line, as well as understand all the ramifications that will happen, if one does fuck up. For instance, if a teacher does a poor job at teaching, and the entire class fails, is it not the teachers fault? It's too easy now a days to play the ignorance card, and simply say, it wasn't me so therefore it's not my fault. That's not what this "thing of ours" was built on...and it's a shame to see it heading down that road. Accountibility is what makes this work, and it's what makes members take time to help the associates under them. To end my point, if my dog shit in your house, would it not be my fault? Or would you let me slide cause it was the dog, and not I?"

Nicky puffs on his cigar, as he waits for a response.

Yes that is very true Nicky they should try there hardest to not disappoint there sponsor as he has taken them in.

But not all associates think like this they just want to have fun and fuck about. Ofcourse some associates listen and then if they listen then fuck up but they wasn't told, then only the sponsor is to blame.

Nicky nods as mafiamaxxxx makes a good point, and takes a pull of his cigar before he speaks.

"That is true mafiamaxxxx, as it is impossible to prevent someone's ignorance or stupidity from shining through. As stupidity is sadly a universal infliction; however, is it not the sponsors job, to make sure he or she is not sponsoring a complete and utter fuck up? For instance, if I hire someone for a job, without checking their qualifications, or the manner in which they carry themselves, and they do a poor job...is it not my fault for hiring them? I believe to be sponsored means that you are a true mafioso, and you carry yourself as one. Therefore, one shouldn't sponsor someone, who is not fit to be sponsored. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe I'm a little too old school, but I think the same effort that's put into joining a crew, should be put into sponsoring a crew member. One should check the qualifications, as well as how one carries themselves in all aspects of life. Be it, the respect shown when speaking to a higher up, or the way they carry themselves in the street. That is the point of sponsoring, to put your name down, for someone who you feel will be a contribution to the family, and not a burden."

Nicky takes the last pull of his cigar, before discarding the rest to the ground. He sits back on a bench, as he awaits for another response.

Interesting to hear people saying action should be taken against sponsors if their associate fucks up. Brings back memories of the CP reign when above made man ranks were killed because of some gangster fucking up.

Bad times.

Smile as he know nicky and himself are on the same terms in this conversation

Well i guess everything has been covered you have just summarized it all.

Shakes Nickys hand.

Vito_T summed it up beautifully and how anyone can disagree is a mystery to me. He was right on the money. Unfortunately I think the non-existent invitation process has warped many thoughts on this.

This is the mafia; you are introducing someone from the outside to a world of crime. Do you honestly think if this guy fucked up, you would be able to hold your hands up, smile, spread your arms out and shrug it off? Hell, no. People would be coming to you looking for answers. Why did you bring this idiot in? We only accepted him because you vouched for him, how did you think this crayon eating moron would be a good choice for us?

These types of questions would be leveled at you, because this is YOUR associate. He wears your name. Read the first line of the rules pinned up on your HQ notice board, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a variation of the phrase 'you wear my name on your shirts, it is me you work for and me you represent' somewhere in it. This is because every member is representative of their sponsor and if you've taken on an associate that sponsor my friend is you.

Not punishing the sponsor is illogical, you're just condoning idiot decision making by one of your men. This in turn reflects poorly on you. You want protection from your associate being a complete fuck up? Check before you make him your associate. You shouldn't have to 'lure' anyone in a HQ; they should be biting your hand off to get in.

If you teach an associate properly he will not make a life threatening mistake. 'My associate broke city rules' - a mail explaining to them to follow city rules, an explanation of what city rules are and the consequences for breaking them, (even a step by step guide on which buttons you need to press and not press if necessary), then if they still make this error, I doubt you did anything other than buddy them up to begin with. Therefore you do deserve all the repercussions that are due to you.

Finally to address biffy specifically, I assume if you still don't understand the reference system after all the time, then you never will. You only needed references to become Made Man, please engage your brain. This is the mafia. You expect to become a Made Man in the mafia and you think it is the worst thing ever that you have to know at least 3 people who would willingly vouch for you? The associate system is just an adaptation of this. A Made Man is becoming part of our family and the very least I would expect is that the other members of our family would happily embrace him. I don't know what world you're living in, but in this one to become a Made Man should be an honour, not a right.

~T~