I'm a bit curious as to how a low ranked Right Hand Man (such as myself) is percieved by the general public.

How does one rank, when compared with a regular 'friend of ours' with a higher rank? Does the Right hand title boost the respect level, and if so, by how much?

I know my role when around Dons and so forth, but what about Capos? Made Men? Being RHM is a position of trust. The boss must trust you with their daily business.Access to funds, information, decisions in family affairs. All of this requires a lot of responsibility. So how does a Goomba RHM compare next to a Capo? Or a Boss? Or is the RHM status insignificant to those outside the family?

Very good question Pops. In my eyes, a goomba Right Hand Man hold significantly more respect/power outside of his family because of the fact he is a right hand man. Being a low ranked RHM means you are a trusted associate with the boss. Depending on the role of the leaders in the family, the RHM is usually the second in command, so if the boss is not available for the moment then they would go to the RHM. Then the LHM and etc. Those new goomba's, you can usually tell they're new. But with low rank right hand men, that generally means their bloodline was around before as a very high ranking individual. 

In short, I would say that inside the family the RHM holds more respect above say, a made man or capo. Regardless of his rank. Outside of the family, generally the rules also apply. 

My personal beliefs are that well the Right Hand position should be for those of the proper rank. Ie least a Made Man. If you don't have someone of rank then leave it vacant. Till you have one you can trust to fill the position properly.

Some think this is just not safe and fill it with whoever they can trust even though technically from a RP aspect how the hell can you trust some new gangster to our shores? I don't trust'em but that is just me.

Personally, I believe that a RHM should be judged on their recruiting abilities and their ability to answer questions, but I believe that your low rank will make it so that any mistake will be blown out of proportion.

Of course, just because someone is a gangster does not mean they just got off a boat. My RHM is a low rank, but he's some kid that has lived on my block his whole life. I remember when he was 8 years old, I would have him run packages to Hurley's office. Now that he's an adult, he knows more about what it is I do for a living and I have taken him on as a protege. He might not hold a rank in the family yet, but he is the guy I trust more than anyone, and someday, when he earns his bones, I'll make him a Mademan. For now he makes money working for me, and I have him watch over things when I'm not around.

Godfather Butt_Ox, and I can totally understand that. Just because the person has not achieved the ranks yet, doesn't mean he isn't the one you trust the most. The area in which I am curious about is how is he.... compared to, next to a made guy.

Which one... holds more weight?

nods and understands both sides

My family has sat on both sides of this beaten horse. I am in theory against it as it is not "RP" appropriate although Ox did a fair job of tying his in and some other scenarios come to mind to justify it. I will simply bring up the strategic soundness of appointing a Thug/Gangster as your RH. Sorry Seniore Ox to point this out but you did bring up your own RH so I will use it as an example as well as our own

Name: RuthlessPig - (RHM) Rank: Thug Bodyguards: Very Well Protected

Name: _Ragnarok_ - (RHM) Rank: EarnerBodyguards: Extremely Well Protected

I will only list one other RHM to accentuate my point

Name: Inspector_Clouseau - (RHM) Rank: Boss Bodyguards: Protected

As illustrated above their is a very sound strategic and financial side to making a lower ranked your RH. You are able to afford them a level of protection others may find more difficult to accumulate. When you couple that with the trust and vision associated with the position, it seems to far outweigh the loose "RP" argument used most times.

Please not I didn't divulge anything already not public viewable information. Anyone can look at a RH/Capt/LH etc.

~HF~

Sometimes this thing of ours is not conducive to running everything past the mafia police down RP Avenue. This is one such area. In theory, we might want all right hands to be Made Men and so on, but it's not practical. When you run a family, there are usually very few people you would have by your side, if more than one at all. This is a person you trust implicitly and someone you have faith in, to the extent that you trust them to run your family in your stead.

Under these conditions, sometimes the theory has to give way.

As for how they are perceived....well, it's a position of power and all the usual perks come with it.

OddPanda sits on the sidewalk listening to the speech, waiting for the crowd to clear before he approaches Pops.

Personally, sir, I feel that no matter what the title of RHM is a sign of respect and trust. However, I do feel that the ones who have earned it do recieve more respect than the lower ranked RHM. Some in this community see it as unfair to the ones that have earned the rank. Although, the lower ranked RHM have also earned the rank, just in a different way.

The title will always be honored and respected, no matter who is the one holding it. Family leaders will naturally trust a friend over anyone else. It is the way of life. 

After shaking Pops hand, OddPanda walks off whistling a merry tune.

Leaning against the wall and smoking what seemed like her 47th cigarette, -Lana- listened to the conversation and did not intend on participating untill she heard OddPandas comment. This fired her up so she stepped up.

I can not speak about the Right Hand Man position but I can about Left Hand Woman. Earned, you say?? My twin sister died in the line of duty and she taught me everything she knew. She did not disrespect anyone nor did she make a faux pas. Her gun exploded! She, like many mafioso here, have paid their dues and have proven themselves time and time again. When something this unfortunate happens, it's only normal that the Crew Leader trusts the next of kin to take over. Trust a friend over anyone else, you say??  No! Trust experience is what I say. Yes, if you see a goomba RHM, it has been earned by his ancestors and you should be so lucky!!

I made a lengthy speech about this down on OOC Avenue a while ago.

Cato ruffles around in his elegant, tailored overcoat and produces a speech transcript

Ah, here we go http://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/68971.

Not sure I've made my mind up on it yet, to be honest - I think my views have changed recently to having more respect for lower ranked RHM/LHM than I used to. As someone wrote, the Mafia RP police can get things wrong at times.

Oh and i'm not trying to divert attention from this speech to my own, its just that my views are best expressed there - please take a copy of mine, read it, then carry on the conversation here, rather than 'there'.

C

I wouldn't say it's strategic, Mr. Flamegoo, looks like it maybe but you need to remember that a low ranked is a lot easier to kill than any high rank and the bodyguards would only protect them against crappy shooters. Financial, yes, but I'm pretty sure you have seen Right Hands get demoted from the ranks of Boss or even Consigliere, in order to get them more bodyguards, now that right there is what I would call strategic as well as financial. A well trained Mafiosi back to the rank of Thug or Gangster to get more protection, and with the way things work nowadays, back at the same rank they used to be in a week, give or take a few days depending on how hard they work to regain their ranks. So demoting isn't really being used as means of punishment in this case, but merely as means of getting people the boss trusts some more protection. Not that more difficult than buying a "new" Right Hand a bunch of bodyguards, is it? And the formerly high ranked RH would also have the advantage of regaining their rank a lot faster than this "new" RH ever could, thus making them a lot more safer. And ask yourself, during this week or so, would you think lesser of said RH while they're low ranked and working their way up again? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

In my opinion...it doesn't outweigh this so called "loose" RP argument used most times. The RP argument is there to give us a history, a little something about said person that is being mentioned, like Godfather Ox said, he's known me since I was a kid and I've worked for him for a long time and right now I'm part of his family - even though my bloodline had vowed to stay away from this "thing of ours", I came here because an old friend whom I had been working for as an associate, trusted me with a position in his family that he felt he could not trust anyone else with, with or without bodyguards, I would have been here for him. If he decided he wanted me protected, he did so for a reason, same way anyone else would for their RH, keeping the family safe is the main priority, and it's quite hard to do so alone, if you can't trust your second in command, you have no business being a leader as the family would be doomed from start.

So the strategic part is bull just because a person happens to be low ranked and "new", as it's the "loose" RP part that lets you know why said person is a RH in the first place, no leader would make anyone a RH just because of the amount of protection they have, nor would they do so based on rank. It's all about trust, and if it's not 110% and mutual from the git-go, it won't work. And you should also know you're comparing the right hands of new and old families, Hurley who used to be Godfather Ox's RH is now a boss of his own and Godfather Ox chose to go with a man he could trust after Hurley, which happened to be a low ranked Thug of our communities.

Don't judge a book by its cover, Mr. Flamegoo. There's a lot to be read, and knowledge is power, as they say.

The young man tips his hat to Mr. Flamegoo, and turns around to walk home for a good nights rest.

smiles at Ruthless

In todays climate though it does make a difference, in the days of old where death was much more constant I would agree with the low ranks are easier to kill view. My opinion was based soley on todays enviroment where people have much much higher life expectancy and success rates to ranking vrs old. I am not judging anything by its anything, simply stating a fact of finance. Something that no one until then had brought up in this conversation at least. Adding a different view and perspective to an ages old arguement that can go round and round for ever.

Also I noticed that you picked very isolated area's of my statement to attack or pick apart as they say. I am slightly confused by this. You say Mr. Ox gave a history of your association with him and quoted my "Loose RP", I agreed stating that you were tied in, in this manner better than most so essentially we agree on that piece. I also stated when you couple the financial strategy involved WITH the trust and vision aspect of that position. So again we agree that Trust and Vision are important as well. I am not really sure what of my opinion you disagree with, other than perhaps taking offense to an observation made of which I am sorry if that happened.

Also as a side note, the general system of demoting to my understanding has been changed. So a Consig or Boss will no longer be able to be demoted and retain their rank with ease in a short period of time. They have to meet the time requirements set forth again. This I am not sure if has changed yet or been set forth by the gods but was stated to be changed and awaiting implementation for some grandfathering reasons

~HF~

I know I lack the rank to have an opinion on this, but I feel that I am perfectly situated to have an opinion on it.

If we take a second to look at my rank and my age, we will see that I am currently a Wise Guy of around 65 days old (give or take). This makes me older than a lot of the Mafioso on our shores at the moment and generally quite an experienced chap. However, I have not performed enough crimes and broken enough fellow Mafioso from jail to have gained enough experience for Made Man. I'm not sure where this would leave me because it doesn't make me, as Mr Costello said "some new gangster", but it hardly makes me the most highly ranked chap in this society.

Without meaning to re-iterate what Butt_Ox had to say on the matter, it does happen to be that most of the time around here, 90% of low ranked yet slanty Mafioso have possibly more experience than most Made Men and also are far more highly trusted by the CL. Bear in mind that if a CL makes a lower rank a RH, it's because they have more than likely known them previously for a number of years and acted as an uncle or father figure to the young sprite. Chances are, if you look closely, the lower ranked RH might have some uncanny personality likenesses to their ancestors.

"Don't judge a book by it's cover" applies quite nicely in here, so I'll slip that quote in.

I didn't really pick apart anything, because not much was said, Mr. Flamegoo, and I think I answered everything.

I am in theory against it as it is not "RP" appropriate although Ox did a fair job of tying his in and some other scenarios come to mind to justify it.

What I disagree with here is you saying it's not RP appropriate, not the part about Godfather Ox mentioning me, because I took that and added to it and I did so in order to reinforce the fact that it is RP appropriate, and even used the "demotion" of Boss' and Consig's as means of showing you what isn't RP appropriate, but it's still done as a strategic measure to make sure people they trust are protected.

As illustrated above their is a very sound strategic and financial side to making a lower ranked your RH. You are able to afford them a level of protection others may find more difficult to accumulate.

Maybe here is where we got lost, seeing as you said 'a very sound strategic and financial' side to making a lower ranked your RH. I agreed with you about the financial part but also stressed that this could easily be done to a high rank if the leader demoted and by doing so arguing the "difficult" part in the above sentence, however I didn't agree with the strategic part, which I clearly stated a few times I think, and also said it would be more strategic to do the demotion thing.

But just now when you said: I also stated when you couple the financial strategy involved WITH the trust and vision aspect of that position. - "financial strategy", I got it. That's a bit different as the financial and strategic parts you mention would be one and the same, thus I was arguing two things while you were speaking of only one.

When you couple that with the trust and vision associated with the position, it seems to far outweigh the loose "RP" argument used most times.

This is why we have "RP" and why it's "RP" appropriate, for when things like these arise, you have an explanation to why said Mafiosi is a RH, even if a leader doesn't have to explain shit to us. It's interesting to know. And I said don't judge a book by its cover because that is what you did, looked at some bodyguards without asking why said person had that many or why said person was a RH, even though Godfather Ox already explained the reasons behind the choice of his RH, you chose to use it as an example, and I chose to debate with you in this matter.

My family lines have appeared on both sides of this debate.  In theory, it really doesn't seem like a great idea to entrust your family business to somebody who has been in this life such a short time.  Whether you know him or her from the block, or you grew up together, or whatever, their personal experiences here have been limited.  This could cause form tension among the older and more experienced members of your family who have worked hard for a significant amount of time with the hope that they will be given the opportunity to be a bigger part of the family.  They are overlooked so that a thug or gangster can be given that job. 

That is how this may be viewed by outsiders. 

In practice, the job of choosing a right hand is much more difficult.  In practice you want to choose that person you trust most in the world, because that person is responsible for your family's survival.  So, you disregard rank, and you choose that person with whom you have the strongest relationship and the greatest degree of trust.  That person may be a gangster or a thug, but you choose that person anyway precisely for the reasons Godfather Ox indicated: it is a person  you grew up with, etc. 

Bottom line is that you are going to choose who you believe to be the right person to help you lead your family, regardless of perceptions.

If you're concerned about how you'll be perceived, well...just don't be.  Do your job.  Ultimately you'll be judged for the work you do, not the rank you were while you did it. 

Tony is walking down the street and hears what they all says and decides to put in his two cents.

"Yeah I believe its fine that some families have low ranked RHM or LHM. It just shows how much trust the CL has in them and how their blood line has done in the past for the family. It shows that they have experience and that they will do a good job for their family. Yeah some people may look at it and say that aint fair but you have to earn trust before you can become the RHM or LHM of your family. So just do all you can for the family and if so die for your family to prove your loyalty to your CL. If you think that is too much than you might never earn their trust enough to become their RHM or LHM. That is my opinion on the subject. But I'm probably repeating alot of what has already been said but just thought it is always good to have alot of opinions on each good topic."

Tony walks away and turns around the corner heading down to his HQ

I think that most of us do agree that the trust factor is key. I pretty much already assumed that from the start. My question, which apparently has not been touched upon, is the level of respect this low ranked RHM should be getting.

Lets use a direct example with fictatious names.

Bob is a RHM Goomba for an LA family.

Jerry is a Capo for a family in NY.

Who demands more respect? Who has more "rank". 

Is the RHM only more respected by his own family, or should out-siders respect him more for his RHM status as well?

Being a RHM with a low rank at the moment Ive thought about this issue myself. Since becoming Talliens RHM, I havent encountered anyone whos been disrespectful or looked down their nose at me for being a RHM with a low rank. If an event where to arrive and I needed to discuss something with you Pops, Id treat you with the same respect and manners that I would give a person that had reached the upper echelons of this thing of ours. 

I think anytime you see a young man or lady given the title of RHM or LHM, it obviously shows that the CL has trust and faith in this person to carry themself with respect and honor that comes with the association of being apart of his crew. You should treat that person with the respect that comes with the title.

I look at it this way, if the leader has enough respect, and trust to appoint a low ranked Mafiosi as their RH, who is anyone not to respect said leader's choice of doing so? If you respect the leader then you will treat their RHM and LHM with the respect the title holds, until they've shown that they haven't deserved to be respected, and this is regardless of rank, Mr. Pops.

The questions should be, would you as Mafiosi question the choice of your leaders of who they want as their RHM? If so, the next question would be, do you not respect or trust your leader's decisions at all? And if so, last question would be, why did you join said leader?

In the end, leaders makes hard decisions every day, they need a proper structure for everything to function, and I doubt people within their HQ's would question why this and that got this position in the family, if they respect their leaders they will trust every decision the leader makes. Nor would other leaders question why a certain leader would choose that Mafiosi as their RH, the reason they don't do so, is because they respect the leader's freedom to appoint whoever they want as their RH or LH, the second reason being it's not really any of their business, as long as it doesn't interfere with their business.