ima whack the whole new orleans out for all the trouble they put me and my cousin ShadowLurker- through.yall dudes scared of Premier,yall lame.MissFreedom be ready!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As usual Al is leaning against a light pole when a young mobster starts yelling hysterically in the streets.

That is a one cunning plan you must have Mr. Caine. I really like how you outed your cohorts right off. That takes serious balls. Of course, telling all of New Orleans you two intend to kill them takes balls too. So, lets hope your actions don't reflect too badly on your own families.

Al leans back and waits for the blood.

Will you now, lets see how far you get.

I hope you know how lame you sound and you're just having fun doing this knowing you will die.

Seems not very far:

Success!
Dat bum's swimmin with da fishes.

Appologies to anyone this x crew member may have insulted or contacted.

Pip

Thank you Pip for taking care of Horatio_Caine very quickly.

DK shakes Pip's hand

Wonders about the automatic death sentences around here



It seems a gangster has no real means of attempting ANYTHING of a reasonable worth. We have the power to withhold promotions that put people in positions to effect real chaos. We can take guns at anytime, demote fine etc. Yet everytime someone say's one thing seemingly "out of line" we find them swimming rather quickly.Why, simply to add one more name to their list of "You did me wrong" and postpone their plans by 24 hrs?



What I find some what amusing though DK is your coming out thanking Pip for handling a gangsters death quickly? You are the most patient Godfather in all of our cities. You give people chance after chance and offer alternative ways of punishment even self asserting Death is never something you like, given you offered Mysterious demotion and closing shop before that, plus the patience with lil wayne etc. I was actually impressed with your willingness to break from the norm and attempt to show a willingness to allow people to grow make mistakes and learn before forcing swim shoes.



Someone once said Blood is bad for business. I think here and by here I mean our world as a whole, forgets this.



~HF~

Hazlespoon Horatio_Caine came out onto the streets with the intention to cause trouble.
Thats why he shouldof been killed quickly he didn't make a simple mistake he cameout to cause trouble.

With all do respect Mr.Hazelspoon_Flamegoo, I understand the point you are trying to impress, if that was indeed your intention. I do not wish to anger anyone.

However from my point of view, perhaps it was not the threats that brought on Mr.Caines early demise, but rather the blatant disrespect and insults to the Families of New Oreleans, again, I may be wrong.

Interesting concept HF.

Someone runs to the streets, directly disrespecting a godfather and making threats against an entire city... not because of youth or inexperience, but due to biterness over a parents deat... then obviously a slap on the wrist and a quick tongue lashing is the way to go here? Really?

I have to say, I couldn't disagree with you more. Actions deserve reactions. The actions of this young man today deserved nothing less than what he recieved. Blood is bad for business, but not as bad as idiots trying to ruin a good family name for their own selfish wishes.

Hazelspoon_Flamegoo has a point though. If u kill a gangster he just comes back the next day and can start the same thing all over. There should be a more severe punishment such as suspension of the account for a week or something like that.

nods at the responses



Understanding that, we all come to this world to cause trouble.None of us are innocent of that in anyway, delivery could have been better served. He didn't come out and call anyone anything remotely disrepectful and for all intensive purposes didn't state anything other than the truth. I would wager approx 85 % of the site is afraid of Godfather Premier and with good cause. He has proven he garners that respect/fear.I am sure he and quite a few others are hurt and angered at what happend, how ever missplaced that anger is. Lets take this in a different light, we now do not know who this person is. Which means that as of anytime since his fathers death he could be in a family already (most likely with out even having to speak to someone as we all know) earning away. They will rank through with no one knowing who they are or their true intentions. Then when the oppurtunity warrants, they could actually come close to fufilling the at this point empty threats made.

I understand that sort of patience and planning and politics is lost on many, so the average will not be able to do that

It just frightens me sometimes the quickness to deal death as the only punishment vrs other more lucrative and punative punishments.

~HF~

The gangster was alive simply due to the protection given to him as an associate of a Philly family.

When he made the decision to come out to the streets, disrespect a godfater, disrespect a city, disrespect his own family, disrespect his own city by putting his own selfish wishes and goals ahead of those of his family... he rightly lost that protection and suffered the price.

I have no knowledge of the rules in operation within the HQ in question, but knowing both Pip and Godmother Scipita as I do, I'm confident that the gangster in question was breaking his family rules in carrying out his selfish agenda.

It wasn't an honest mistake, it wasn't something he would learn from... it was simply a choice to disrespect damn near everyone he could.

Even I as a godfather of New York can't control what everyone in the streets might decide to say. If this gangsters kin should decide to follow a similiar path (leading to death each and every time), then so be it. However, if they come under the protection of a family of one of the eight cities I will expect that family to react in a suitable manner should one of their associates step out of line. If they don't, it would be more than the gangster in question who would have issues to worry about.

He didn't come out and call anyone anything remotely disrepectful and for all intensive purposes didn't state anything other than the truth.

I again have to take huge issue here. When a gangster takes to the streets and says he's going to wack an entire city, while the idiocy is obvious for all to see, it IS disrespect! Unquestionably so.

Nods to Deimne



I would argue that threatening someone openly isn't as much disrespect as it is flat out stupid. Quantifying stupidity and disrespect can be a circular argument though and I appreciate and understand that.I do not agree with what this obviously angry person did, shit don't even know that I disagree with the overall outcome. It seem's though that regardless of the infractions it leads to death, which I find to be troublesome. You did not adress my points on the downside to killing someone right out of the gates. The points made of pushing them into hiding, quietly ranking, garnering strength etc. I would also like you to consider this, knowing how are world works as you do.


Which is worse, dying after 24 - 48 hours or being forced to live with no gun under constant question and with the knowledge you most likely will not make it past Mademan. Being forced to pay tribute and tax's to the very person who is opressing you and deliberately holding you back?


Now granted this person or persons in question will most likely at some point suicide. How ever consider the time difference and what it means to both that persons plans AND those whom he would plan against. He now has waisted time, furthering himself exp and timewise from those he is plotting against. It has given those around him time to garner more security (BG) more ammunition (working offense) and over all more standing in this world. It also will put time between him and those that MIGHT have been willing to help. Giving time to settle old wounds vrs them being fresh. Giving time for the fense riders to ingrain themselves into new families finding that life does go on and begin to prospure again.


I may be speaking in theory or have an over exagerated belief in what people may be capable of.

I am interested in yours and anyone else's thoughts on this. As we all should learn in any situation, learning is what makes us stronger.

~HF~

Personally, I'd always believe that threatening someone openly is flat out stupid as you are publically disrespecting them and showing the contempt you hold them in. However getting into the symantics of it is tangental to the main issue here.

You raise a few valid points, some that I strongly agree with. However, they're being raised at the wrong time in the wrong place.

Each situation is different. Each must be handled in a different manner. This is why being a leader isn't just a case of picking up the 'rule book' and performing each task with a nice green pen ready to tick each one... ever situation is unique and the solution to the problem will require judgement from the leader, thus the leadership coming through or not as the case may be.

In this scenario, which is the only one we are discussing at this moment in time, there was no other suitable option. Dealing with an associate who so blatently broke his own leaders rules, his own godmothers rules, disrespected another godfather in public and made threats to shoot an entire city in public... death was the only outcome which would ever fit the crime.

If you raised a seperate debate on the merits of punishments other than death being used, my response would be very different. I have certain rules I control with a zero tollerence policy, breaking it will and does mean death. For lesser infractions, I will always use my judgement and only resort to my gun as a last resort. Leaders have many ways to punish members, death is the only one that the public see. What happens behind closed doors is, or at least should, never be known to those outside the walls. So saying that death is the only punishment used is a huge generalisation and one that I personally believe, and within the city of New York know, is false.

I can see the point my Capo was trying to make with this, one I've argued elsewhere (see: http://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/61290) regarding the alternative to death as the single punishment resorted to in the majority of instances. I do however, have to agree that this circumstance is in no way applicable to that logic, because some actions deserve to be punished with a loss of life.

When someone so blatantly errs, there is little alternative left to either the person's leader or the head of the city. There are things that you simply can't do and expect to live, one being openly disrespecting those extremely more powerful than yourself. This is a lesson that can only ever be punctuated by a death sentence, because it should never be tolerated within our crew and certainly not within our families.

Whilst (as is evident from my discussion elsewhere) I agree that death is not the only applicable punishment to each scenario, in some it is.

~T~

Well, unfortunately I have learned in my years putting something in the appropriate place and keeping it respectful simply doesn't garner fair response and viewing. In our world unless it is a tad out of place or disrespectful most won't look at it. So that is why I chose hear, I knew it would be viewed and people would repsond. Had this been broached in a independant area it would have withered away.



For the record in a prev. statement I did state I didn't disagree with this particular result either.

It should also be noted that this is not his first time through, in every generation of his family so far, he has been the same.  Coming out on the streets and going against the rules of This thing of what? Oh yes, OURS.  This is a group effort, not an individual wack fest.  If you want to wack, go to those button-click instant gratification games, this is about allies and FAMILY and if he is that much of a loose cannon alone, what will he be like when he gets into a family?  Can you trust that he would not go rogue?  No.  Can you trust that he would keep Omerta?  No. 

As to the fact that he met his fate swiftly, TY pip, those who are infected with this form of rougeitis are very dangerous and if they refuse the cure, there is nothing to do but put them out of our misery.  It wasn't a mistake, it was a willful action, there is a difference between someone saying something in a moment of passion, and threats and rants like what we saw.  The one may be dangerous, but as soon as they cool off they usually speak eloquently and if not rescind their words, at least speak in a more ordered fashion, they may still have contrary beliefs, that's fine, it is when they act on them with blatant disregard to this Thing of ours. 

Look at it this way.  Would YOU vouch for Horatio Caine if he petitioned your cl for entrance?  Would you stand behind him knowing that you could catch a bullet for his mistakes?  If the answer is no, (which it is) then death is the best, if not only answer.

Hazelspoon, you've drawn beautiful, logical conclusions.  However, the reasoning behind your premise is flawed.  You're attempting to answer the question of "How can we best punish a person hell-bent on overthrowing some established family or another?"  These people aren't being killed in an attempt to thwart their master plans, they're being killed for making their family look bad.

I suppose it's possible that someone could potentially keep their head down and true intentions hidden for a few months, get into a position of power, and strike at their former enemies.  But I would suspect at that point, after that much work, time, and dedication, self preservation would take precedence over their steadily-fading lust for vengeance.  Perhaps someone could cite an example of this happening, but we can all agree that a half-wit gangster rising to a high rank to exact their revenge is the exception, certainly not the rule.

Although I would agree that it would be more detrimental to the person to keep them an unarmed wise guy indefinitely, the fact that they retain their right to speak in the Streets would bring further harm to the reputation of the family.

My point is, killing them will not thwart their plans for world domination, but that's a Strawman argument anyways.  They're killed because they're wasting precious space in the HQ.  They're killed for breaking family rules.  They're killed for making the family look bad and they're killed for insulting our friends.  They don't deserve to wear the family name.