*Taking his spot outside the New Orleans bar, Frankie stands on his old rotting fruit box and calls for every one's attention*

Evening again fellow Mafiosos..
There seems to be something about the evenings that always gives me the energy to speak, I hope I'm not a vampire..or a bat perhaps?, or maybe its because I spend all day working for my family that this is the only time I have to spread my thoughts?..yeah, I like the last one, I'll take that one.

I've come out today to speak about honour to your family, the leader that took you in when you needed a home, the person who you turn to when you most need it.
That person in the big strong white suit that we all claim to be loyal to..

My question is, how far does your loyalty and honour go?


Let me paint a picture in your head,
There you are, you come to these streets, your homeless, you cold, no money for food or water, you are basically laying there under a damp bridge just hoping to die because your a worthless excuse for human life..
Then here comes a man.. or woman, either gender is fine, both equally capable, approaches you, they give you a few cents to buy a sandwich and a cup of coffee, you then begin talking to them, the conversation expands to their line of work, after listening intensely, you decide you want to be a part of it, you ask this person what it takes to be them, they give you a whole list of rules, guidelines and motivational encouragement and then with that, you jump at the chance and ask for an invite to their family, which, once that leader has made sure you are up for it, he/she holds out their hand and welcomes you...


Am I on the right lines of how this all works or am I totally off track?

Anyway, as time goes by, you find yourself more and more involved with the family business, your leader is even considering you promotion to Made Man..
What the hell, you earned it, right? you were always loyal..respectable and active for the family, you took the oath at the start that you would do exactly that..great stuff..

But lets not forget, this speech is a statement of opinion which we will get to in a minute, so don't get all lovey Devy right now till I finish.

As your time for promotion was due to come up, a war breaks out..
After many hours fighting a losing battle, your leader is shot four times in the back, killing him/her almost instantly..

With their death, leaves many homeless mobsters, running around like cockroaches when you turn the light on..and then out from no where, you get 101 invite requests from other family heads offering protection..

What do you do?

A) Accept the invite and carry on like nothing has happened.

B) Refuse the invite, continue to fight the family that killed your leader

C) Refuse the invite, sit down and wait for someone to kill you

D) Accept the invite, but secretly plot a rogue attack against the rival family

I'm not expecting anyone to answer these questions in public, just think about it in your head and be honest with yourself.

In my opinion, should a leader fall, then all their members then become "open season", unprotected mobsters who in any other situation, would shoot you too..
This is unless they go on to join a new family, in which case going against everything they ever promised to their former leader, loyalty and honour till death...that my friend, is YOUR death, not theirs.

My fathers, in the past have jumped ship when their leader has fallen, the sudden panic of being a sitting duck while the city runs riot trying to find the recently made homeless for easy kills..
Not a day goes by that I'm not ashamed of my fathers for doing this, it wasn't every time, but hey, once is too much..but I know that 99.9% of everyone here has done it in the past also.
When your leader falls, it is in our duty to die with them or fight like a bitch till it happens, at least then you take a few rivals down with you (from the war, no personal hits)


"Death before Dishonour"-"Loyal Till The End"

Both quotes share something very similar, this speech covers both of them and both quotes are about you and your family, not you independently..
Loyal till the end means YOUR end, not your leaders, your loyalty should still continue beyond their fate, and that doesn't include having "GRHS blah blah" on your business card while you happily carry on with life under new leadership.
Death before dishonour is exactly what it says, you would die before ever being dishonourable to your family, a statement in which is very true, because if you are dishonourable, you'll be shot instantly anyway.


I thank you for your time.

-Frankie Gogolak

I'll give you two other scenarios, Frankie.....

Your boss is slain so you join an allied family to take the fight to the aggressor.

Your boss is slain and the right hand takes over as head of the family.

In my opinion, it's not treacherous or disloyal in either of these scenarios.  My bloodline has witnessed 'friends of ours' jump ship to the aggressor though.  That truly is the worst possible action to take in the circumstances.

I'd also add that it's arguable whether a family can expect true loyalty unless the person in question is Made Man, at least.  If an associate is not considered a member of the family, can they be expected to act like one?

I have thought this over many times, and let's be logical. If your family is almost certainly headed for disaster, then is there really any point fighting on? You either live and continue to help by serving in a different family, or you die for a cause that is already lost.

Albert, xxx

Mr Meverick,
In the situations you have shown, I couldn't agree more that in that case, it would be alright for the members to jump ship.
However, when making my speech, I wasn't referring to the legit ways of moving forward, more of the dishonourable ways like you mentioned, joining the aggressor.
When my father died several months ago, his son, my brother, witnessed a few of his former members joining the very family that killed him, that to me was harsh and some what careless and unfortunate. I wouldn't have expected them to just lay over and die, but there is a limit.

Agreeing again, true loyalty cannot necessarily be expected if the person in question is not yet honoured with the button, but then, saying that, we could let them get away with alot more "just because" they are not Made yet, the y weren't to know, lets forgive them for whacking little Johnny, I'm sure he'll learn once we promote him. There are downsides to ever decision, if there wasn't, life would be too easy and that's not the way the lord intended for us.

Albert,
Suggesting that you just give up and roll over because your family is fighting a losing battle isn't really logical.
Imagine you were leader, you head into war and then b00m..you look back to see you are on your own, all your members have ran a mile because they know they can't win..that wouldn't be very nice, would it? :P
Your last quote however is spot on to what I would want from my members, it's better to die taking down a few with you than it is to just give up, take the bullet and die knowing you could have tried harder.


-Frankie

Fuck, bit my tongue twice now as i tried to say this:

I hope you dont take offense to this (or anybody, especially high ranks), as you asked for my honest opinion, well here it is:

Isnt every Don just a proxy for the Godfather/Godmother of the city? If yes, and this war you speak of is just your family v another whole city (like happened with my brother) then whos to say that you should lay down and die? If you somehow survived, whos to say that you'd be disloyal by simply joining another proxy of your city when your original family died? Sure, itd be disloyal if you MOVED CITY to join your enemy, but is it disloyal if your secretly plotting revenge on them? I mean thatd be that family's fault for recruiting a member of the fallen enemy, what did they expect would come of it? And sure, if you go and join the enemy in a city v city war, thatd also be disloyal. In a city v city war everyone should go down kicking and screaming, for who knows, maybe anyone you manage to take down would turn the tide of the war into your cities favour?

Oh well, what would I know?

Does your tongue hurt? did you bite down hard? :P

I think your statement pretty much goes with what Mr Merrick was saying about the RHM of the fallen leader setting up and you joining them.
Admittedly, I didn't think about the possibilities of joining a family within your home city where you grew up, but yes, I think you make a valid point and it would be hard for me to think of a reason why this would be bad other than the whole "jumping ship" thing and not continue shooting till you get shot yourself, but then you could say that if you should the RHM, so meh..I'm out of ideas

Well it all depends on what the war is about. If its your family vs another city by itself, and the reasoning is something stupid, your heart isnt going to be in it, so why should you die for your Don's stupidity? It happened to my brother. However, if theres an actual good reason behind it ofcourse youd go down with the ship. But then again, if that were true, wouldnt your whole city be fighting alongside you?

The reason for the war is unimportant, we took the oath to stand by our leader, that includes if they are wrong or not.
If its just your family vs and entire city, then the chances are your leader declared war without consulting the city Godparent first, in which case, the family is at huge risk of being whacked by that godparent, so yes, if that was the case, your heart wouldn't be in it, but just so long as your gun is, it doesn't matter, through thick, thin, right and wrong, we must stand by our Don and their mistakes are ours, the same as their great work also makes us look good, it works both way, you can't just bail because it hasn't gone your way this time.

I've never seen a war which invloved 1 leader vs an entire city, so lets hope it doesn't come to it.

Prince-Cola stand in the crowd and listening to what is being said

Prince-cola comes out from the crowd and says what he thinks about the case.

If it is so that you waiting to be promoted, and it breaks out a war between two cities,

 and it looks like you are in the losing family, it is not loyal to go over to the family that you have just been at war against

But if you go to a different family from the same city as you are from, you're certainly loyal to your godfather / godmother and that's what counts.

This is regardless of whether you are a wise guy or higher rank, for it is they who have taken you up with the family and they expect that you are loyal to them and not a family that you are fighting against.

That is, rather die for the family than to be without honor

Prince-cola take a sig out of the

Prince-cola take a cigarette out of the pack and lights it
He takes a couple of deep dragg before he goes

Prince-cola take a cigarette out of the pack and lights it
He takes a couple of deep dragg before he goes on out in the street

The reason for the war is everything frankie, if its your family v a city. Didnt you see the TM v Los Angeles war? That was a family v a city. The family lost. It was a stupid cause. If its city v city then yes, you MUST fight to the death, but if its family v city then whats the point in dying for a stupid cause? Your family is just a proxy to the godfather isnt it? This all boils down to who your more loyal to. Your Don or your Godfather?

The TM vs LA war must have been before my time, I can't say I remember it.
When isn't a war pointless? for power..money, respect or otherwise, its needless as these cities are big enough for all of us, but of course, this being the mafia, there will be times that people start stepping on each other's toe's which is when trouble starts brewing.

Having the question who I am more loyal to, my Don or my Godfather is a question that is lost on me as my Don is also the Godfather, so I'm loyal to both, but should the situation have been different, then my answer would take several weeks/years to consider as I have strong views about both and don't believe I could pick a side to be more loyal to.

That question is definitely a good one and I hope other people take the time to think about it.

I have thought this over many times, and let's be logical. If your family is almost certainly headed for disaster, then is there really any point fighting on? You either live and continue to help by serving in a different family, or you die for a cause that is already lost.

Albert, xxx

Albert, this thinking disappoints me.  When you are entered into the family you are part of the FAMILY.  I would die fighting for any member of my family, as I know that they would follow me into a war that could lead to their untimely deaths.  Loyalty to the family is what brings us together in a world where some of the most vicious crimes are all but ignored.

Well, thing has also ran through my head a few times, seeing the wars go by. And here's what comes to mind.

I saw what happen in NO war. Their GF shot, only two Crews remaining, and L.A. already planted a GF and a Crew in NO. Things seemed bleak for the NO faction, but they held their ground. They pushed back the tides until help could come. And they won.

I will keep fighting until all my resources are gone, until they finally make me take that final breath. They will never break my spirit, even if my Crew leader falls. I would join an allied Crew though, and rally the remaining scattered members to a allied Crew and continue the fight. And if I die, so be it. I picked my fate with my City and my Crew, I'll face the consequences.

Panda pads out onto the street and observes the conversations and debate ebbing and flowing in front of him, taking the time to be honest with himself as Mr Gogolak suggests.

"perhaps I am a little anachronistic in my beliefs, but surely if you believe in a leader enough to join his cause and fight for his beliefs, then you owe it to that leader to continue the 'good fight' after his death, in whatever form that be, from the legitimate to the illegitimate."

Panda Pauses for a second and considers his own words.

"Should these set of circumstances occur for me, then I will assess the situation and look at all the possible solutions before making my decision. Is there a suitable ally available who is continuing the fight? Am I strong enough to challenge the oposition by going rogue and carrying on the fight? I believe the answer will differ for each individual based on his own strengths and weaknesses. Regardless of the decision, made simply giving up is not the way to go, and jumping ship is simply pathetic. We are supposed to be bears of honour, not cowards and liars using money and pretty words to ingratiate ourselves to those in power just to save our own worthless lives. All that matters in this life is honour, loyality and servitude to those who willingly protect us until such times as we move forward to continue their good work. To paraphrase a famous hollywood actor: 'I will be fighting for my freedom... Not from tyranny, oppression, or
persecution... but from annihilation. I fight for my right to
live. To exist. I will not go quietly into the night! I will
not vanish without a fight! I will fight on, and through me the memory of my fallen comrades and glorious leader will live on until I draw my final breath."

Panda seems happy with himself, until a though hits him and he feels a little down.

"forgive me if I appear a little sexist, I have nothing against the females in our society, I simply use the male perspective out of familiarity and to simplify my point."

Panda, sir,
You speak very wise and valid words, your opinion of this matter fits exactly to what mine is, although that is not way I think they are valid, you just spoke what you thought with true honesty and respect.

Looking into the situations what you have placed, you clearly have the right frame of mind to make it somewhere in this thing of ours, you obviously know and understand how important having a leader is and understand that taking the oath when you join the family is for eternity, not just when/if the leader falls.

"all that matters in this life is honour, loyalty and servitude to those who willingly protect us until such times as we move forward to continue their good work."

Sexist indeed..but I'm male, so I don't care..hehe :P

I am not gonna hide. I will flat out say that I will continue the fight in my leaders name. He has provided me with a roof, work, food and a sense of family. Should my leader be slain then my brothers and sister in the family would still be under attack by the warring factors, so in essence I would also be fighting for them. So yes I would continue the fight.

Caius listens closely and makes a note of the individuals that would jump ship in any circumstance merely to save there own necks

I've got to say, I'm surprised to hear what I'm listening to currently. If your leader dies, you have only ONE true option. That is to continue fighting. I don't care if you don't have a gun or not, there is always that fraction of a chance that you could do some damage and hurt the one's that hurt your family in the name of that fallen leader.

ForRent, I am glad to call you brother. We are in complete agreement.

The situation you have described is certainly not cut and dried, requiring an understanding of the Mafia organization. It also depends upon the understanding of your leader and their city as to how the Mafia should operate, but I'll come onto that shortly.

To address the choices at hand, if I understand it correctly:

My Captain/Boss has just died and I'm a promising Wise Guy about to be given my button. What do I do?

Well for those of you saying "FIGHT TO THE DEATH!!!" you're being ridiculous. I have no blood ties to anyone here, I'm a Wise Guy and my boss just got clipped. I'm under no obligation to stay with this crew; I was merely an associate, not a sworn member of a family. Sure, I worked with the guys and I was on my way in for sure but I never got in, I never juggled a burning saint or was adopted by a Godfather. This dead leader was an employer, not a family member.

There is no dishonour or disloyalty in finding a new crew to run with. You aren't a Made Man and you've no direct ties to your city or anyone in it at this stage. Some Godfathers make it so any criminal in their city once they steal their first purse is bound to stay within that city, in which case it will probably be a death sentence to go elsewhere, but other than their rules as a Wise Guy, to suggest you should take up the banner of your fallen leader is stupidity of a very high degree.

If you promised your former employer loyalty until death, that was your decision. In my book unless you were Made with that crew and thus became part of their family, when that organization is gone, you are no longer bound to it. I think if the Underboss takes over the HQ and continues the same crew, then you should find your way back there and you may be expected to. If they start something different though, you didn't buy into that, so again you may be free to go elsewhere with no smear on your reputation.

There is nothing dishonourable, as a Wise Guy or below, continuing your life when your leader dies. Nothing at all.

Moving on to a point which is often forgotten: You are not part of the 'Family' until you're a Made Man. You run with the crew as an associate of a Soldier, you haven't made your bones yet and you haven't been sworn in as a member of the family. To become part of the family you should be adopted by the Don or Godfather and thus your loyalty is to them as the supreme head of the family, rather than the Captain or Boss you may work for.

To illustrate this better I'll use New Orleans as the example. The New Orleans farmyard is Kenobi territory and the Kenobi Crime Syndicate run the city, including all organized crime that goes on here. The Kenobi Crime Syndicate comprises two Bosses, Giovanni Bovine and I. The head of the Kenobi Crime Syndicate is BoabyWanKenobi and whilst our Soldiers and Capos may work directly for Cow and me, they are made into men of honour by Godfather Kenobi. Thus, their loyalty goes beyond either myself or Bovine, but belongs to the Godfather and New Orleans itself. Should one of us unfortunately fall you can expects any man of honour to remain in New Orleans.

Any Made Man or higher should be part of the family and thus should react in the same manner as if their own blood relatives had been killed. If I murdered your mother and father would you want to come and work for me? I doubt it. I imagine you would be howling for my blood.

~G~rin.

Panda thinks for a moment before nodding in agreement.

I understand the points that you have so eloquently put forth Mr Grin, but my understanding was that I was more or less about to be made into the family prior to the war. If the war hadn't broke out, I'd in all probability be shaking body parts with the Don, or however these secretive Made men ceremonies are performed. However, as a war has broken out, that has taken a back seat, and rightly so, the needs of the individual members being secondary to the family as a whole. Surely in this case would you not feel more of an attachment to your leader, that man who has shown you so much trust and given you so much, and up to that point asked so little in return? Would you not feel a burning desire swelling in your bossum to avenge the deah of one who was about to take you into his confidence, bring you into the confines of the inner sanctum of his home, and make you a member of his family, or do I still have my tenuous grasp on this thing of ours wrong and you would believe in that casethat I would still be perfectly within my rights to lie low and seek membership within another family whilst men of honour died trying to protect that which I so nearly had and have just turned my back on?

Panda pauses for a moment to clarify his thoughts before continuing.

I am sorry if my enquiry sounds like a challenge to you, or you beliefs, I am merely tring to clarify this point you have made. I am new to this way of life, and have yet to fully comprehend all the subtle nuances and intraquencies of this thing of ours.
From a personal point, as I have already stated, I am new to this world, but the trust already shown to me by my Sponsor, and his Boss has created a loyalty in me which I simply can't ignore.Sould anything happen to either one, I personally would wish to avenge their deaths, or have a hand in doing so, and although I have not met the illustrious Master Kenobi, by permitting me to work for his family in the position of associate member, he has already earned my eternal gratitude and loyalty.

Simply put Panda, you're either a Made Man or you aren't. If you haven't gone through the ritual before the war breaks out - you aren't a Made Man. If you have, then you are. I'm also dealing with hypothetical situations with black and white contrasts, when you take the reality of a Wise Guy's reaction I'm sure it will vary. My point earlier was that no Wise Guy should feel their reputation is smeared if they choose life rather than death to a dead family they didn't belong to.

I'm sure some on the cusp of the family would react and choose to join the ranks of the dead as if they were their brothers. I personally think that is a bad decision, but it would certainly cast no shadow over that person's honour if they took that route. At the end of the day, dead or alive you're still a Wise Guy and no amount of notches on your belt is going to change that. You may have been on the cusp but you hadn't taken your oath and you weren't a Made Man. Whilst you decided to die with them, would it not have been more beneficial for you to live?

In a practical MafiaReturns sense the amount of damage you can cause as a Wise Guy is extremely limited. If you truly wanted to avenged your leader then live a lie the rest of your life, gain power and exact revenge when you're capable. Honour is a tricky thing and it can be worn like armour or can constrict like a noose. There is no blanket answer I can give you beyond what I already have. It is my opinion that a Wise Guy is not bound to die with the family because he isn't part of it.

Hopefully that provides you with some clarity.

~G~rin.