I just find it annoying I am having a conversation with someone seeing if they are worth anything and then they get in somewheres anyways.

There's already been like 5 different threads on this subject. It's getting boring.  Im not saying it's nothing to be angry at. Just saying already been said many times before.

The Leaders whom are against Member whoring, through nessesicty to keep up, must Member whore.

I'm confident that this broad sweeping statement wasn't intentionally directed at me, but if you're going to make a broad sweeping comment... it's going to get a reaction from those you choose to tarnish with that brush.

I never have and never will member whore. I managed to keep a 50 man HQ practically full for 90% of my time as a crew leader without ever having to resort to member whoring. So not only have you offended me by making a false accusation against me, it also turns out that your facts are wrong. A leader doesn't have to drop to the level of those around them to be successful, if they are strong enough and work hard enough they can simply rise above, remain loyal to their own views and be extremely successful.

On the matter at hand, it's something I personally disagree with. I've never allowed my own family to do it, I don't allow my city (be it leaders or sponsors) to do it (punishments have been handed out to the very odd exception found disregarding my belief in the requirements it takes to become part of New York) and I don't like to see anyone do it.

However, I'm not going to feign outright indignation at it. If other families or cities do go this route, they will suffer for it. Be it the recruitment of terrible members, an abundance of sleeping bums in their families, a large portion of unloyal members... each have their consequences which far outweigh the possible gains. If they manage to sweep up all the bums who otherwise might wind up finding themselves with an undeserved place in New York, great.

The biggest issue with tackling this subject is how far does it go? An invite sent without any contact, obviously whoring. A mail sent asking/offering an invite? Just as bad in my humble opinion. Someone approaching them offering help? 9 times out of 10 it will be with the sole aim of recruiting them, but what if it happens to be that rare offer of genuine help for a lost soul? Trying to judge and 'rank' each invite request on a global scale, we're entering a minefield that I'm not sure any of us know the way to escape. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be tackled, obviously with very strong feelings from some on the matter it will be... I'm just not sure in my own mind where the answer lies.

In the mean time, I'm happy to ensure my city operates to my rules. Should others follow a different path, I'm sure they'll suffer as a result.

"There's already been like 5 different threads on this subject. It's
getting boring.  Im not saying it's nothing to be angry at. Just saying
already been said many times before."

It obviously isn't getting boring if good number of people have added legitimate substance to this topic. In fact, short of one speech that was filled with the obligatory "Congrats on getting authed!", this is the hottest topic around right now.

Why do something about it when you can just "be angry", and take it like a cheap corner whore? How I love the state of our current "mafia"!

The only way to change something is to speak out and make things happen, regardless of how popular or unpopular the topic is. I believe this is worth it, and I don't care how many times it has been done in the past.

"While the positives of member whoring have been outlined here, and believe me, I understand how it can be beneficial to a family...

At the end of the day, a large majority of people openly condemn this kind of practice, yet nothing is ever done about it.

I'm tired of the same old rhetoric on this topic, and would like to see something done to put this controversy to rest. I've done my part, as many others have in the past, by re-hashing this topic and speaking out against it. I'm sure most are thinking of the phrase "beating a dead horse" when it comes to member whoring, but clearly this horse isn't dead when you see so many people coming out and sharing passionate view points about it."

Honestly, I am thinking MORE than just beating a dead horse I am thinking the constant complaining about unsolicited invites is starting to be more annoying than unsolicited invites.  Let us be honest here, people are only sent invites for about 2 days time.  At least the invites are quietly done and easily ignored.  At least I dont have to listen to those invites yelled about in the streets.

Can those of you who are not a crew leader, maybe stop trying to tell crew leaders how to run their crew?  If someone wants to print up flyers and throw them out into the street about their less than legal operations, what does it really have to do with you?  Surely those who "member whore" understand that it makes them look like fools, why waste your time and mine trying to stop a fool from being. 

Also, honestly, I find it more than a bit unsettling to see a Boss in the streets questioning and making demands on the crew leaders and Godfathers of this nation. 

"Can those of you who are not a crew leader, maybe stop trying to tell
crew leaders how to run their crew?  If someone wants to print up
flyers and throw them out into the street about their less than legal
operations, what does it really have to do with you?  Surely those who
"member whore" understand that it makes them look like fools, why waste
your time and mine trying to stop a fool from being."

Based on that statement, I have formed the opinion that you feel this kind of practice is acceptable.

"Also, honestly, I find it more than a bit unsettling to see a Boss in
the streets questioning and making demands on the crew leaders and
Godfathers of this nation."

What "demands" do you speak of? What I see, is a respectful request to have this practice examined and looked at by those who currently run our fine cities.

I've already seen Godmother Aurora come out here and comment on the topic, and Godfather Deimne has done so as well. Both of them have provided positive view points to this discussion, so surely they feel strongly enough to take the time and discuss it with all of us.

I'm sure if my Godmother felt I was out of line, she'd have spoken to me about it privately and you'd have seen me come out here apologizing for my actions. Low and behold, she hasn't done that though, so I'll continue to carry on my discussion and try and make something positive of this.

I thought that I was being fairly clear that I find the practice silly, by mentioning flyers and whatnot.  Perhaphs that is not the case, so I am glad you asked me to clarify. Let me be more clear.  I do not condone the practice. I know that no matter how much someone tried they would never find a single person who has been approached by myself for entrance into my family or any family for which I have been a part.  I said that I think the practice makes people look like fools, so, if I did it that would make me look like a fool as well no?

When I mentioned questioning and demanding things from the Godfathers of this country, I was referring to the comment you made earlier saying that you believe the only way to get this unfortunate habbit to change is to bring the topic to light repeatedly.  I personally feel that if they Godfathers believe this issue it is important enough to deal with, then they will deal with it, and one conversation is likely enough.  We have instead seen several citizens in the streets for this reason. As Deimne mentioned...  he doesn't condone the action in his city, and he feels that is as far as he would like to go with the matter.  Now that he and other family heads have come out to speak, I would like to see the end to demands for said leaders to take firmer actions.  Leave them to run their cities as they see fit.  This is not a democracy.  This message has been in the streets long enough, nearly always requesting that Crew Leaders and Godfathers take a harder stance on this issue.  I know the current Heads of this nation to be bright people, fully capable of hearing an argument once, or even twice, and then acting as they see fit.

I am saying no more than that I think I have heard enough.  I would rather my next of kin be invited to 72 crews than listen to another speech about the importance of punishing member whores.  I am certain that you are more than able to punish your own crew for these offenses as you believe that you should.  Perhaps leading by example would be good for awhile instead of leading by speech. 

Also Corky, I didn't mean that I think you are or were being offense, I just mean that I think at this point we can leave the issue to the family heads instead of discussing it to death.

That is the last I will say onthe subject here.

As Deimne mentioned... he doesn't condone the action in his city, and he feels that is as far as he would like to go with the matter.

Did I now? Funny, that's not the least bit close to what I actually said. From my own memory of it, I said I condem it in my city, punish for it, would happily see a stance be taken on it but that certain questions remain that need to be considered before such a stance could or would be taken.

Sure, I'm an intelligent man. I make my own decisions and have strong opinions on most if not all topics. That doesn't mean I'm naieve or foolish enough to think I have all the answers or that others, be it Corky or anyone else walking our streets, might not have a suggestion to address the problem that I haven't thought of or considered. So seeing the topic get a public airing is the perfect opportunity for someone to comment on the issues I raised with tackling this 'issue'. I personally don't see it as a major problem, for the reasons I've mentioned, but if it can be resolved to the agreement of the eight cities, it's one less issue to keep raising its ugly head.

As for having to listen to another speech... you don't! If you don't want to hear it, fine, move along. Nobody is making you listen to it or forcing you to comment. Trying to attack a speaker for raising a legit issue on our streets, rather than spouting utter nonsense as is often the case, strikes me as odd at the best and if I were a skeptical man possibly self serving. The only reason I could see to want to silence such a speech is if someone had/has something to hide. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

While I don't personally monitor any potential member whores out there (except if I hear of one of my own being involved in which case I take immediate action), I do monitor our daily obits quite closely. While it's not a direct link, I'm sure all will agree that the number of family lost due to slumber is directly related to the quality of the recruitment that family practices. In which case, certain families do stand out week on week.

Leaning against the nearby lamppost, Kates listens intently before chiming in with her two cents.

Although I understand the frustration about seeing the same topic pop up again and again... perhaps there is a good reason for it's continued popularity? And something that has received so many impassioned, thoughtful speeches (from Godfathers, no less) is surely not unnecessary, with the need to end discussion? No, it seems to me that this discussion, no matter how repetitive, is justified by the passion and eloquence found in the varied replies to it. There is always the option of averting your eyes if it bother you.

With regards to the original topic, I believe the most difficult part of seeing action undertaken on this issue is determining "the line" that people cross to be punished. Even back in the days when "rampant member whoring" was used as a justification for war... it was an extremely subjective reason that occasionally was used to justify the use of bullets when one party simply didn't like another. These were better days in some ways, but I would caution against people who repeatedly speak of them as if they were some age of perfection. Every age has its problems.

But I digress. "The line". It is my opinion that the only boundary that should be labeled "unacceptable" is the extending of an invitation to someone without the benefit of a conversation. To offer someone the ability to become one of your associates without speaking to them is insane. This practice breeds only more insanity and complacency by those who accept these unspoken invites, and I believe this practice should be actively discouraged.

What is acceptable, I think, is approaching a thug or petty thief and having a conversation with them. I encourage my family to keep an eye out for new talent, so to speak, and if a conversation reveals that they have the qualities I'm looking for in an associate of the Renaissance then I expect them to be brought aboard. If you read the histories, once a lower ranked member of this thing of ours saw someone with potential, they'd work to bring them into the organization.

So to sum up, unsolicited invites are bad and conversation should be a necessary element of bringing on an associate.

Sir, I was more trying to argue my feelings that you the other Godfathers, or he himself, are more than capable of taking care of this in your own cities.  Especially since the topic has been brough up several times.  If I misunderstood your message, and misquoted I apologize.  My mistake.

im pretty new at this game, another friend got me into it.

but i play other games where this is known as 'mass recruiting'

when you first start, you get a whole ton of invites to join the 'mass recruitment' teams, but if you want to join a smaller elite group, you have to out, search & talk to people.

i see the exact same thing happened here in mafia returns.

it will happen and you will never be able to stop mass recruiting, ever.

the good news is, in this other game i play, the elite teams always trash the mass recruitment teams. i think the same thing will happen here, the elites will crush the mass, if/when war breaks out.

My issue with any sort of approach to a thug is that, ultimately, if you go down this path it is practically impossible to keep tabs on. As I said earlier, I do believe that under no circumstances should a CL/RH/LH be approaching a thug. It's impractical and insecure to such important people in cosa nostra. I can understand the calls that sponsors are different and should perhaps be more pro-active, but I still disagree with it. The simple fact is, the intent behind most approaches is not to help thugs, but to recruit them and move on. If approaching is to be controlled but allowable, people soon wise up and simply do their whoring under the guise of help. Do we then start monitoring every post-invite recruit? This would be very inefficient.

I agree with what Deimne says about this only being to the recruiters detriment, and it generally is. However, I think it's worth mentioning that with the right family and the right sponsor, these thugs may actually have the potential to turn into a decent criminal. In the "whored environment" they do no necessarily get this chance to flourish because they're in an HQ full of other whorees, excuse the term. 

Though I've not done it personally, I'm not for one minute suggesting that some of the associates in New Orleans haven't been approached themselves, they probably have. But really, there is more than enough help available when you arrive on these shores in order for you to be allowed a bit of time to do your thing, start with a couple of crimes, check your info mails, have a look around the streets and then see where you fancy starting your new life of crime. On top of this, they have a full 48 hours no-shooting protection to get to grips with things. Why on earth should they have the arse spammed out of them on arrival and have everything handed on a plate to them. Not to mention the fact that 10 minutes into this thing, they have no idea who is who or what is what. 15 minutes later as realisation dawns, they are stuck in whichever family. With those genuinely-new-to-these-shores thugs, this is a crucial time for them with regards to their future interest. I am pretty sure my forefather wouldn't have stuck around too long under these circumstances. He may have been slightly confused (probably helped by the city hall mobmails these days anyway), but it was pretty exciting at the same time and the feeling of satisfaction when being accepted by the family he had chosen to approach, using some initiative and effort, must have been pretty pleasing. I'm sure of it.

This is a slippery slope and doesn't help thugs grasp the fact that the mafia is about the guy above you and what you can do for him, not the other way around. When I came to power in New Orleans, we made a conscious effort to try and take a more controlled manner towards invites. Whilst in the current environment it can be wildly frustrating with these restrictions/ideologies, I think it does tend work well in that I am happy with the level of mobster we have in the city. Again though, how much of this is down to the fact that we weren't just whoring everything that moved so these people had a fighting chance? I don't know, honestly.

As Deimne also says, the solution is far from straight-forward and not clear at all, unless there is a blanket do-not-approach policy in place. Would I be averse to that? No, but there are 7 other cities out there and I'm sure each city has differences in their thinking, no matter how subtle. Needless to say, it's easy to condemn whoring, but not necessarily quite as easy to put a solution in place that fits all city heads' wants.

When I think of whoring I think of 3 kinds.

1) I step of the boat and whilst listening to the wise old man someone slips an invite in my back pocket.
2) I step of the boat and after speaking to the wise old man, someone is standing behind him and asks do I want an invite.
3) I step of the boat, and I survive the inital gauntlet of whoring. I go in search of a suitible family from which to seek sponsorship and someone don't know asks if I want X amount of money to join his family.

Those to me, are the worst. Offering assistance is fine, as long as it doesn't come with the 'as long as you join my crew' statement. Sure we all want associates and bigger families, so we will look to make an impression on the n00bs, but as long as they ask me for sponsorship and not the otherway round, then I'm not a whore. Particularly if I still interview the person before inviting them.

I for one totally agree with Corky's speech.  Our family has a
strict policy regarding this so called "member whoring" process.  There
has been a penalty set forward to members caught doing so and I even
speak with our new recruits to confirm whoring hasn't occurred. 

With this rule in place, we have yet to be informed of any wrong
doings and keep a decent size family in this cut throat world of
ours.  I believe this keeps the family members closer and more interactive
with each other.

Salvatore steps out of the shadow's.

I would like to respectfully pose the following scenario for consideration. Our thing is unique in that a system can be put in place by leadership that must be followed even if it can be broken easily. Wouldn't it be interesting if until someone achieved wise guy they could not be recruited? During this dangerous time they must stay home if they want protection or get protection in advance. Once they have achieved wise guy rank they can look for a family or be recruited. By that time you know they are active and you have productivity in the form of prowess. They may even have opened their mouths in public once or twice and even got to know a couple made guys while getting permission to crime in that city. Then made guy he takes on wise guy as an associate and you got a wise guy that can travel around freely. Then someday he vouches for him maybe and you got another made guy. It seems to me we have one limited resource around here, one thing to fight over, members. A system like this puts competition in place over a longer term and leaves ample opportunity for the stupid to feed the bloodthirsty. I believe this would end member whoring and engage member recruiting properly.

Sal steps back into the shadows.

I've discussed this whole thing with my Right Hand Man, and I'm pretty sure with the strong minds we have in power these days, we can easily beat this problem.

1. With all the leaders in place today, a new immigrant to our shores would have to be extremely ignorant (or stupid) to not see they are wanted. With each message, an invite lies waiting. The people with these invites, ready to be sent out at first notice, want everyone they can get their hands on. They want these people, because they're worth the space. So, they pick them up, hoping to make a buck later on.

2. Another possible outcome of inviting a new guy, is that the new guy joins your crew, but then goes into a coma. What then? Obviously, had the new guy gone unsponsored, anyone could "pay him a visit". But since someone in the crew snagged him, ONLY that crew gets a shot at it. So, is member whoring worth the notch on your gun? If all you want is more kills, then yes. Although, I personally don't like seeing my people in the obituaries. It draws too much attention to my organization.

We even have people being shipped in from Europe to practice our shooting! When we lose the desire to have strong, able mobsters in our families, we lose the right to have a crew. If all you're looking for is getting your hands on the new guys, JUST so you lock up rights to the kill, do us all a favor and leave them alone. Let them WORK for their invite.

"Can those of you who are not a crew leader, maybe stop trying to tell crew leaders how to run their crew?"

Watch where you tread here Apollonia. That is like me telling your Right Hand to shut the hell up and only let Crew Leaders speak. He just came out here and asked a question, and brought up the 'Honoured Society' maybe getting together to discuss this further since there seemed to be many different stances on this subject.

Id like to thank my Right Hand Retard for bringing this topic back to light once again. As previously mentioned, its brought up time and time again. This is obviously an issue that needs some sort of agreement established by the Godfathers and Godmothers of our cities.

The reason behind member whoring is understandable, but its not a reason I agree with personally. Strength in numbers they say, more targets for your hitters, possibly more cash for the crew leaders pockets. Mostly good reasons, but I personally would rather have a small crew of active hard working members, than a crew filled with lazy half hearted gangster. 

My personal two cents, it should be outlawed totally. Fresh faces on our shores should find their own way, not be greeted at the docks by a handful of potential sponsors. Sponsors offering to throw these new faces piles of cash just to lure them into their family HQ should be ashamed of themselves. You're practically begging people and its rather pathetic.

If The Honoured Society can come together and formulate a plan to eliminate shooting these fresh off the boats individuals, then they can come together and formulate a plan to eliminate member whoring forever.

Wonder if the Gods would allow us to see Member Whoring like we see Pick pocktes and murderers?

Jan 15, '10 05:58 You witnessed _Ragnarok_ whore Corky.