Marky Stracci listens to Eddie speak. He then puffs his cigar and responds.

"Well, for starters, people lose hope when their leader dies. It is a natural feeling. A godfather or godmother is like a parent. They show you the way. You listen to them and do what they say, and you may be like them one day. Then, when you see them brought down to nothing, you feel like nothing. You can't fight half-heartedly.

"Second, Vegas couldn't risk them surviving. Detroitanions are people, just like the rest of us, and once the sadness is gone, anger takes its place. They would rally and crush the enemy, or at least screw them up a little. No sense in letting them continue"

Eddie my bloodline hasn't been here long but I have a simple answer in my opinion, the Godfather/mother is head of the city all the captains report to him. If the Godfather/mother goes down the captains have to go with him. As any captain should stand up for their Godfather/mother its that word Loyalty that comes to mind again

Bell stops short as she hears Eddie asking his question.  Turning and smiling at him she responds matter-of-factly.

Eddie my dear, in this world of our, by the code of Omerta, a man or woman are not to be loyal to one man.  We are loyal to the family.  If you chop off the head, as you put it, another one will replace it immediately.  In order to take total control, as you saw in Detroit, one must eradicate.  I do hope this clears up your question.

Bell smiles at Eddie one more time before continuing on her way

Eddie shrugs at the wise old goomba.

I don't really understand. I would think that once the Godfather was dead you would have to worry more about the lives under you as a captain no matter what side you were on, there was a lot of money being made in Detroit. For some reason, I don't imagine life is supposed to be that cheap in this thing of ours.

Marky nods

"That is the duty of a leader. Along with strength comes duties. If you are a GF or GM or CL or sponsor, you have a duty to prtect those that work for you. But what, exactly, does that statement have to do with being wiped out?"

In my dim view it has everything to do with it. Sure you fight to the death for your leader, but once that leader has died shouldn't the loyalty to your people override your need for revenge whether CL or sponser? Once your objective was met as an attacker, shouldn't the lives of those under you then be paramount? Shouldn't the sheer amount of tapable cash Detroit was churning out been more valuable than tactic of killing nearly everyone?

Bell turns back once more before she rounds the corner into a dark alley

Eddie, though you made some great points, you've missed my main
one.  You speak of how a Crewleaders or Sponsers should step up and
worry about taking care of his or her own people once the Godfather or
Mother falls.  Here's the problem with that theory:  The one's
attacking you are not going to stop until everyone is dead.  They do
not want the chance that one of those Dons or Crewleaders or Sponsers
will step up and take the place of their enemy.   No power in history
has every attacked another with the sole purpose of killing it's one
leader.  They all attack with the purpose of taking over &
rebuilding a city's income & businesses as they see fit, as the
only reason they attack in the first place is because they don't like
how things are being run.  While I find your views & opinions
valuable, I have to disagree with the basis of it.  Money was not the
objective in this attack, nor was it a concern.  Those who took over
Detroit will quickly replenish it finances, and ensure it's future
success.

Hm...you have a very disrespectful way of piecing together. But I shall respond to your comments nevertheless.

The war had started before I had been made aware that there was in. Being in Chicago at the time, I did a few things for my Don, things that she requested. By then, PedroRourke had been shot. My Don herself was in another city, and people were shooting at her bodyguards. She told me that she would face what awaited her with honor, and removed me from her crew.

I was more than surprised by her reaction. But she told me that she wouldn't reconsider. She then instructed me to ask someone she trusted -Quirinus - and serve him in the same way I had served her. I need to tell you more about how far back me and my Don went. When Don Recro was a Captain of Detroit, Apollonia was his Right Hand Man. That was when my father served Detroit.

Then, when Recro met with an unfortunate death, my father also met with one, and I joined Apollonia who replaced Recro as Captain of Detroit. That continued until this recent war. I'll make this clear: I did not beg her to let me go. I wasn't so uncaring for my own survival that I would let her die if I had a second option. But she made it clear when he dissociated me as a member of her family that she wanted me to move elsewhere.

I am now a Capo of St.Louis indeed, and I will serve them to the best of my ability in the memory of my previous Leader. What do you think would have been more appropriate? Disobeying her last wishes? I'll leave this for you to decide. There may be many comments of running to save the Leader, but the reality of the situation was that I was one hour away from the next flight, and she went to the extent of removing me from her family, and ordering me to join Quirinus and aid him. Which is what I did.

Being in Chicago at the time, I did a few things for my Don, things that she requested.

I assume you mean by aiding in the war effort. Which begs the question as to why you were allowed to live?

I wasn't so uncaring for my own survival that I would let her die if I had a second option.

A second option would be to uphold your Blood Oath and die Attempting to protect the city of detroit. You chose an easier option of survival, for your own benefits, not that of your family. I have always followed the code of "Family First, once and always".

M_Stracci, I was in that war, and my leader dismissed us all, you knwo me of old, we were both in that crew. I stuck ot it however, even though she told me to find safety, and I did what should have been done in defending my city.

I had no hope, when Pedro died I knew there was no chance at life, so I did the only honourable thing and sacrficed myself to do as much damage to the cities that attacked us as possible. Anyone that is friends with me, if you want to know who I killed come and ask, I will gladly tell you. Albert died for Detroit, and I am proud to say I did everything I could for my city.

Daniel, xxx

I can not say much, simply because I don´t know alot, but I can say, I find it very strange  that some nameless guy gets promoted to mademan, I mean the lesast thing everyone should have is a name?

Makoto, I simply don't understand your reasoning behind your point? it's not a name that makes someone. it is their traits: their respect, loyalty, work ethics and their commitment to their family. Names are just a distinguishing feature, although these may make life easier. they are by no means necessary. If ______'s crewleader wishes to promote him to mademan where is the problem? Also how is that your problem? My bloodline has known -V- for quite sometime now. I have never questioned nor doubted his ability to lead his family. Firstly, because i have utmost respect for him. And secondly, because i have no right as you don't. So i find your point to be irrelevant and quite disrespectful to be perfectly honest.

I find it even stranger that a petty thief feels adequate to question a mademan on his name, or lack thereof, and of Cosa Nostra's decision to make him a member.

But back to the point at hand. There are a couple of oddities here. The obvious ones have been raised already...why someone who has taken an oath did not fight for the family, etc.  I must also ask what are the victorious family's reactions to these high ranked mobsters being given amnesty and protection by other families? If I were in their place, I would be angered by it. Essentially, this is a dangerous person who my family warred. They need to be killed, and yet someone else is giving them safety. If you ask me, that is almost like a declaration of war. But, of course, I don't know what sort of communications were made between these families. Maybe those details were all ironed out.

Xanxus gives as good of an excuse for his cowardice as I have seen, and I have seen many excuses for cutting and running in my day. There really is no excuse, though. The formula is really simple: You take a blood oath, you abide by it. "Oh, but my Don wanted me to live" does not cut it. Ok, though, that was his choice. Xanxus should realize, however, that he is not going to enhance his reputation very much through his actions.

You cannot buy a repuation, it has to be earned. Death is not the worst thing that can happen to you. Death is not as bad as dishonor, or even as bad as a life of mediocrity. Those who become legends are those who act bravely and defy the odds. Nobody ever became a legend by putting their tail between their legs and crawling off.

I can not say much, simply because I don´t know alot, but I can say, I find it very strange that some nameless guy gets promoted to mademan, I mean the lesast thing everyone should have is a name?

I can't say much on this, being that I am not his Leader, but I can say that apples are much tastier than oranges (since we're changing the subject, I mean)

If I can go back to the topic at hand though, it would not be historically inaccurate to suggest that it has never happened... survivors of a Mob War switching sides, sometimes to the enemy's. It is also not unheard of for a leader to pick up some new members from the fallout of a war. My bloodline has always died with the Family they pledged their allegiance to in times of war. Of course we all exclaim loyalty to our Families, especially here on the streets, but what we let others see and what we keep two ourselves can often be contradictory. Welcome to the American Mafia.

As a Made Man of a Family? I believe I would fight until the end. As a leader? I would be angered to know that a member of my Family had switched sides in the midst of battle. As an opposing leader, offering a home to a survivor of the enemy? Not a bad move at all. Am I talking in circles? Maybe. Point being I don't think the answer is as black and white as some may think.

Which is exactly why the point is debated many times over and no-one will ever agree on it.

BrutusTheBarber is old school. It's how he sets out from what I have seen. To him and his ancestors the world is black and white. There is no middle ground when it comes to loyalty. But things were different back in the day and people have rightly or wrongly moved on. I would go as far to say that the standard of Made Man has dropped massively. It's the same old rhetoric when I say 'It isn't what it used to be'.

There is now the new breed who put their own blood before their leaders. It's wrong for me. You should be taking bullet after bullet for your leader until you die or stumble out of the other side with your gun in hand and a satisfied smile on your face.

I do feel that we have pushed our members towards this trend now though. I have seen wars fought, finished and safe lists created by the victor. Now I know this is a personal preference thing but if I were going to war then I would be going to kill. Prepared to kill each and every member, from Gangster to Godfather, to win the day for my family. Not a single soul would survive. It might be bloodthirsty but i'd rather have a son return in place of his father. The urge for revenge is never quite as strong in a son and the whole aim is too live long and prosper. \\//

By creating safe lists members are becoming accoustomed to waking up and finding:

1. Invites already posted 

2. Mails sent making them aware that an invite is one mail away.

3. Both.

It stops them looking into why they are unsponsored. It stops them going 'This person mailing me killed my leader. I swore on oath to defend them and the family with my life.' and instead running off into another HQ so they know their own skinny hide was safe. It's not the fault of the leader I suppose but the fault of the member for being far too lazy and accepting everything on a plate. The days when Made Men were aware of their responsibilities to the family and it's leader seem to have sadly vanished from this place.

Can they return? Certainly. It seems that the general responses to this thread show that more than enough people are aware of the issues facing the rank and what they are accepting when they take it.

Will they return? It isn't up to the leaders to do this. It's up to you, the members, to stand up and accept that once you are Made, barring a freak accident, that you are tied to your crew until death arrives at your door. When you are called into your Bosses office and presented with the chance to be Made i'd hope you remember whats been said. I hope you understand that you cannot opt out at any given moment and you will die stood next to your boss and not cowering on your knees at another mans HQ.

I truly hope this makes sense. It feels more like a vent than anything but I am sure my point will come across somewhere..

Darth Torin walks up to the debating area, block robes flowing behind him. His hood hid most of his face, but he raise his hood to the point where his dark eyes were visible. 

"My father also was among the members who were removed from Apollonia's Crew, one of the last ditch efforts to protect her crew. She informed everyone to speak out a respected crew and take shelter. My father followed orders to the letter, knowing that her end was near and did not wish to disrespect her final moments. I was not trying to hide from our fate, I was merely doing as order. He died anyways, most likely hunted down to remove any surviving members of Detroit."

"I do not see how it was shameful, a lone Wise Guy who did not take the blood oath, but was just as loyal as any other Made Man in the crew. The Capo in Boss, just like my father who was a Wise Guy, were dropped to survive. Do I think shamefully of them? No."

Quietly applauds Scandia and nods, not really having anything more to add to what was already said. 

Would you shoot yourself in the head if it had been you standing there all alone? No you wouldn't.

No I wouldn't. But instead of betraying my city by jumping to another family, I would find some of the people responsible for destroying my city and shoot at them. I would die happy knowing I did the right thing by backing up my family whether they are alive or all dead.