This is something we have discussed plenty but it never hurts to remind everyone where they should stand. Before I address it though I have to address Cin:

I believe my line is entitled to live peacefully without the negative snide remarks.

Cin, your line has been around these parts for a long time now and for some reason your line tend to make these same comments. They bring unwanted (or not) attention to something nobody else has mentioned, which has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand. I have not seen any comments on your lineage as of late, although do point to the nearest example of this and I shall eat my words right now. Make your point by all means, but why feel the need to bring your line into every discussion out here? Honestly, nobody really cares who you were and I'm sure everyone has moved on from whatever ill feelings they have towards you, after all, it would seem the line of Maria/Anna has and for now that should be the only one worthy of any concern from yourself. 

Takes a deep breath to clear his head.

Thugs are entitled, after all, almost every leader around gives them that sense. More members means more money, alternatively if a member doesn't make you more money it means more targets. This place is made so that it actively encourages leaders and their members to go out there and try and recruit these nobodies as soon as they come off the boat. Naturally, it creates an unwanted mentality in these new guys since they feel they will pit these leaders against one another to see who will benefit them the most. Oh Larry The Don will give me 50k startup but Bertie the Boss said he'll give me 100k, I'll go with him. 

If it doesn't work out with dear Bertie and they don't get their own way, we see these nobodies often take their own lives and for a son to step up in their place, looking for the next offer the leaders can make them. Eventually they'll settle down somewhere they feel at home and feel important enough to stick around, if not it's rinse and repeat and onto the next crew.

This place isn't what it was 10 years ago, people need to stop pretending that it is and embrace the current reality.

The way things are currently set up means that it's better for you to recruit as many people as you can, in order to get as much money as you can. Whether those you recruit can string a sentence together or not doesn't matter because money talks, everything else is irrelevant. If they don't earn, you shoot them and make space for the next potential member. Once you have 40 members your crew is full, hopefully you can tutor a few of these to become half decent as a mobster, but the majority of them will be half-wit's when it comes to playing that role and even then, where's the incentive to act out such a role? It won't make you any more money.

No, best to just teach them to shoot, run drugs and bust people from jail. Everything else is irrelevant while this place is in it's current state.

So, outcome? Whore your way to 40, teach as many as you can to shoot, make money and rise through the ranks and you have yourself a band of fucksticks who will provide you with an army of Bodyguards and more cash than you can imagine. Maybe a few of them will become handy in the hitting department if you're lucky too, next step? World domination.

Well done Gods, I'm happy to be in a place where we can embrace playing the part of a gangster... or not.

To be fair Fitz, what I have mentioned is exactly the topic. Is it the "Gimme" form of entitlement? No but it does fall under entitlement. You don't have to like it.

But if you want people to stop being entitled, stop putting more emphasis on bloodlines. You can't put some bloodlines on a pedestal and think that no one will feel entitled. That is backwards logic.

Again, you stating you feel entitled to lead a life of peace and not have big meanies be mean to you because of your previous lines is not what we're on about, it has nothing to do with this current conversation regarding thugs thinking they are above their station. Please don't pretend it is or try to justify it any way, you'll only make a mockery of yourself.

Your comment on bloodlines feeling entitled is fine enough and makes some sense, after that though, it was just bringing attention to yourself and how you are allegedly constantly victimised for your lineage.

Don Hayes has made some interesting points here regarding entitlement. There are some phrases, no doubt,  where he may have more perfectly expressed himself and refrained from perhaps being "overly harsh", as he said. I think previous speakers have made this point already, although some of them could have no doubt expressed themselves more ideally as well.

It's worthwhile to distinguish that the targets of his speech were those who immediately begin to swagger and strut upon their arrival here, whose inflated ego is accompanied by a refusal to learn the ways of our world. I also think it's worthwhile that even in his original speech, Don Hayes stated that he's willing to invest his time and energy to ensure that new arrivals are properly guided and built to fulfill their potential; this acknowledges that no one is expected to figure it out on their own. His issue seems to be with those that buck this guidance and display no willingness to learn. 

I still think that it's an interesting observation that in our world- where we live by a strict hierarchy in which deference is supposed to flow upwards and where historically most leaders were not familiar with those who worked for them at the lowest levels- these new arrivals to our shores are nevertheless fretted and competed over, even by men and women wearing bold and slanted suits. If I recall correctly, although it has been quite a long while since my bloodline has visited these now six cities, this was one of the things that helped lead to the process of sponsors inviting young men and women to join the various organizations they belong to, as opposed to the upper structure of the family themselves. 

It certainly seems like there is a dearth of immigrants arriving in these cities compared to those halcyon days of yore when a leader often oversaw hundreds of people organized into subcrews. The world has changed- there is no doubt about that, and perhaps some of those of us who have ancestors from other eras have a harder time adjusting to new realities than others. It certainly makes me uncomfortable to think of a Don chasing down a new petty thief and offering them a position in their family. This, no doubt, is trending back to a debate that these streets have seen ad infinitum, and one that is hardly going to be solved here.  But I think it's worth our time to consider, as Don Hayes has laid the issue before us, whether the way in which we operate has led to a change in the attitude and expectations of those who find themselves here for the first time. Regardless of whether this leads to a practical change in process or simply an increase in reflection, I think it's a good discussion to have.

This is, simply, not an issue with an easy fix. The current structure of the world demands that those organizations looking for new members compete for their attention, due to the resulting money and targets over honor or idealism- as Fitz has previously touched on. In the past, I've seen attempted bans on "member whoring", but this is hard to prove. Additionally, those families who break that ban would be putting themselves in a distinctly advantageous position of strength. And where does one draw the line of "member whoring"? And how does one sufficiently prove it? These are debates we've seen before and don't seem worth rehashing here without a possible solution. So it seems like that current modus operandi is to encourage every organization to pursue new members as completely as they can. This results in a fair system, if not an ideal one in the message it sends to those being recruited.

So how does one create a system that keeps the same fairness between the families, while avoiding the problem of entitlement that Will Hayes raises here?

If you've got a perfect answer for that question, I'd love to hear it. Although my guess is that many of those solutions should be addressed to local town halls- or a church, if you think God is listening. 

Johnny_Marconeplease do enlighten us to the genuine young associates are and how and when  they can be given their props? You have no clue Johh ny_Marcone. Do you?

I hardly call a few facts coming from my pie hole. Any respect coming from me is earned. I would bank you have just Juanita on your respect list or do you not?

women4Trump, do you just spout whatever comes into your head without stopping to consider whether any of it makes sense? If you have something to say, arrange the words in your head so they make sense and then say them next time, eh?

Don't bother "arguing" with women4trump it's a lost cause in their ummm mind for lack of a better word they're always right, it's a waste of time and it's not like anything they say ever has merit. Willhayes brought up a lot of good points and most of the people who spoke here also brought up some valid points so let's focus on the positive shall we?

Flip flop much WigglEfAnGirl4lyfe?

What valid point have you brought up since coming back? All you have done is literally just trash talk with no evidence to back up any claims you've said. You want to talk about how well spoken you are then back it up.

True, WFG4L. Back to the matter at hand.

WillHayes, I've thought about your arguement some more and played through your words in my head. I feel that the tone of your delivery has taken some of the impact out of what is essentially a valid message.

Our world is built on respect. We pride ourselves on having it, base our honour codes by it and use it as one of many measuring sticks when working our way up through positions of power within each of our families. The message of respect should therefore not need to be drummed into young mobsters when they become associates, it should already be ingrained in them through their parents.

Obviously, this isn't always the case and there will often be morons who fail to grasp the concept. These people will invariably fuck up along the way and find themselves in a shallow grave on the outskirts of some city or other. Their offspring will come of age and fall into a life of crime and invariably make the same mistakes.

I don't think the actions of an associate reflect poorly on a crew leader necessarily. As you said, you cannot be expected to truelly know each new associate your recruiters bring into the family, nor should you be held accountable for their actions if/when they do something stupid. Perhaps if it becomes a constant issue, you would need to look at tightening recruitment policies or something like that, but I would say a crew leader can only truely be held responsible for the actions of his made men and women. Once you've bestowed that honour, you are vouching for them to the rest of the community and bear some responsibility for their actions, but not before then I think.

On the point of not being able to get to know each and every new associate, this is where I think a bit of effort in the beginning can pay off in the long run. A quick welcome message from a crew leader can go a long way in the eyes of a new recruit. It shows that you know they exist and they aren't just a new name on their roster, which will help to integrate them into the family quickly and hopefully ensure they are a loyal and hardworking member.

On the flip side you get to gauge their personality and form an opinion of them based on first hand interaction. You will often know by that first conversation whether the person has the potential to someday join the family or whether they are just taking up space.

You are bang on about the general recruitment policy being partly to blame, it takes away one of the better ways to tell if they are committed to working for the family. I tend not to approach potential recruits at all anymore. If a note crosses my desk to say person X has done a few jobs for the family and may be a good recruit, fair enough I'll talk with them but I'm not standing outside the HQ petitioning passers by any more. Its their job to make that effort.

As a new player here I find this conversation very interesting to say the least and some of you call Will hypocritical , but that is the pot calling the kettle black.

Entitlement is a product of ego, ego controls our ideas and thoughts, if we do not rise above it. Ego tells us to be offended by what WillHayes has said.  Or to be offended by what the trumpclown is spewing.

Ego tells you older players that you are better than the newbie players, why because you are older here , that is entitlement. Which no one person is better than  the next. Everyone is equal if not you have absolute power which does not work, it only breeds dissident attitudes.

Respect is given where it is gotten,

respect is earned not given freely.

These are all illusions that society teaches us from a young age.. ...One can not respect another unless they first respect themselves.

So many  people in society in  general, this one and others, are  stabbing people in the back and wiping the blade on their chest.

Welcome Shotguntosti.

The reason people are annoyed is because believing yourself to be, for example, above remembering your crew members' names is ego. This is totally fine though, as that is how these streets work. Nepotism and class-ism is the name of the game. Keeping that in mind, if you drag your grandiose sense of self over to the streets to whine about other people being entitled then in the same breath explain how you're entitled to respect but don't need to give even a basic level of it, I'm going to call you out.

That is my point , or at least pat of it .

Your ego tells you , that you need to call someone out .

Why? Because you don't agree with what was said, or the delivery of the message?

Not sure where the quote comes from but it is fitting here.

Your perception of me is a reflection of you.

This is true for you The-Gambler, For WillHayes ,myself and anyone else  in this grand scheme of life we call the universe.

See the biggest problem is that people are being hated when they are real, and being loved when they are fake.No one is Golden anymore.

Wills message is not just about this game, that is a inflated ego to think that, it is about basic societal standards which are exhibited in the games we play.

Why do we do attack that which we do not agree with? this is simple we are programmed to do such.

Harper steps up to present a simple solution.

Stop doing the things some are doing with the process of recruiting.

 WE are responsible.  At least partially, for creating these monsters.

As soon as they arrive on these shores, we chase them.  We shower them with unwarranted compliments, and tell them how much they will improve our crew.  

If you are doing these things you are COMPLETELY responsible for making them feel that are entitled.

As a recruiter for a long time,when a thug catches my eye on the streets that has the desire to join this things of our and be among some of the sickest and most ruthless gangsters they have ever met, I extend them an invitation to join our organization.

This is an invitation to get off these scum ridden streets. I inform them they will start off by doing odd jobs here and there. That occasionally they will need to do some dirty work to impress in hopes of achieving some sort of recognition among us thieves and murderers.

I let them know everyone has a job to do. Some people are bosses and some are workers. However you can always work your way up the ladder of power, and respect.

That if they work hard they will prosper.  In return they will be given the tools to accomplish their mission and the protection of a family presence to achieve success.

That’s the  offer, they can take it or leave it.  If they choose to go elsewhere I wish them luck.  I let them know they have a week to make some type of decision or they are a dead man.

If we all come to a general consensus that this is what recruitment should be about we wouldn’t have the problems with thugs thinking they are entitled.

But if you want people to stop being entitled, stop putting more emphasis on bloodlines. You can't put some bloodlines on a pedestal and think that no one will feel entitled. That is backwards logic.

Agree 1000%, this is the fucking problem with it all. Not hunting down members (whoring) for your crew or any other bullshit. Initiating contact doesn't cause entitlement! On the other hand...giving their blood compliments, attention, positions or any type of preferential treatment for their parents work is what causes it.

Basically, motherfuckers expect handouts for their kins accomplishments because its common practice.