Sure we can remove this now... Is there really any need for it? If someone wants to die they can just join a crew and ask to bed HQ'd... Like most people does these days anyway...

Wells thats my idea.

Mmmkthx

Having just had an hour long debate about this on irc, the only possible justification I can see for it is..

"don't let them kill themselves, let me kill them".

This game is all about free choice. If they choose to kill off a character by their own hand, that is perfectly rp'able and should always remain an option. So... in my less than humble opinion.. no!

Presumably inspired by the IRC discussions earlier, I was chatting to Ed about this. It won't alter the fact people can kill themselves if they want, but I would actually remove the retire button. Not to stop people killing themselves, since they can still put their own gun to their head and there's no RP way you would ever stop that, but just because from the same RP perspective, it doesn't seem right to me that you can "retire" (GFs excepted perhaps). If you need a way out, shoot yourself. 

This won't stop the "I wanted to kill them instead" attitude when people see a suicide in the obits. As you say, if people want to kill themselves, they should be able to. Godfathers have perhaps earned the right to retire if they so desire, but the rest of us haven't. It's only semantics really though, you could just as easily change the "Retire" label to "Suicide". No big deal whatever the case, people still need a way to kill themselves.

The issue of retire/suicide has been raised before. Anyone under the rank of made man is not 'really' a part of Cosa Nostra, so have nothing to retire from. In that case, it'll always show as a suicide.

I'm not too concerned on the semantics side of it personally, I can rp it in my own head however it best fits for me.. but any option to remove the free choice of a player to take their own characters life rather than having to get a family/player to do it is a big step too far in my mind. If there are issues on the semantics of it, sure, go nuts on tweaking that side of it, but it should retain the free choice of players to live (and die) as they wish to.

The discussion on IRC was more geared towards having a 'penalty' for doing so (e.g. a ban/time-out for a certain period before a player can sign up again), though both are going down a similiar line. We need to allow players as much free choice as possible and allow the game (and the players who play it) to shape itself, not hardcode these elements into the game or make them have consequences that force a player down an alternative (yet no more positive and potentially more negative) route.

You're right, ultimately a player always needs a way to remove themselves and there shouldn't be any repercussions beyond the death itself. A penalty would be madness.

Indeed. I hate the retire button because it means that it loses kills for the family. Nothing more and nothing less. 

I also hate it because it allows people to spout off on a name, top themselves and face absolutely no repercussions for what they have said. No-one can reach them and they know it.

However, I can understand it being there. Some people just want to end it all for no other reason than it all getting on top of them.

So a compromise. You must earn a gun to shoot yourself. It is a 100% guranteed way to die. Shoot yourself in the head.

Those that want to end it all should really have given it more than 75 pettys time for it all to get on top of them, those who spout off for no other reason than to be a fuckhead would also be losing effort 75 pettys worth of effort and they may reconsider their words and this then leaves getting in a crew to be killed where people can be propely policed and increase the 'fun' aspect of the game.*

*The fun aspect being shooting people in the face repeatedly.

Sadly Scandia, that's not the case.

"Ohhh look, I'm a gangster. I want to die, but I can't do it myself. So do I do 75 petties? No. I'll go abuse the hell out of someone to the point where they have no choice BUT to kill me."

Forcing someone down a route where they feel the need to pursue such a negative course of action is a nightmare. I hate the idea of wasting/losing kills due to suicide as much as the next guy, but it's something that IS required at certain times and despite the few negatives we all feel/see, the pros of leaving it as an option and giving users free choice far outweigh the cons.

Or the Gangster can mail a leader to HQ them/shoot them. Whichwould take far less time and effort and I am quite sure leaders would be falling over themselves to do the deed.

However, could that be classed as whoring..?

Probably is best left the same. Doesn't make me like it anymore.