Once again Madara hits the streets with his unnamed henchmen and surely enough they're carrying flip charts, cards, pictures of potatoes and flasks of tea. Setting up much quicker than before, he delivered his unrehearsed verbal portion of today's topic

I've been talking with a variety of people recently about the pros and cons of "scorched Earth" vs protection orders, as well as interviewing people about their opinions on leaving a district/city during or shortly after a take down (also known as ship jumping) and it seems the majority of people are generally accepting of mobsters picking up and moving on after their crew leaders and their hands are killed. Although there are some who see this more frequently used practice as being detrimental to the socially expected standards of honour in our thing.

The basic arguments for fighting to the death: All members should show respect and fight (and if necessary) die for the honour and integrity of those who were kind enough to offer them a home. A crew leader risks losing money if members decide to "rogue" it about and kill corrupt agents, shoot bodyguards or other mobsters, so they have already shown their willingness to accept the risks of having that mobster as an associate of theirs. Therefore an associate should be willing to accept the risk that their crew leader and their hands may be attacked and it will be there job to fight (or help others fight) their attackers, even after they go down. 

The basic arguments for accepting and making use of Pro Orders: Once the crew leader and their hands are gone, your loyalty to the family isn't in question any more. You no longer owe loyalty to dead people and unless you're being attacked or capable of mounting a meaningful retaliation of your own, there's no point in continuing to fight a lost battle.

Given that the choices we each make in our lives directly influences the way others look at our descendants, is the for and against really as simple as boiling it down to "show your honour and die a warrior's death" vs "why waste your life when you can live on?" ?

I know there's been many discussions about whether "blood line" related prejudice is acceptable. Whether each new emergence from a known bloodline can or can't be considered a blank sheet, well... those arguments more often than not come about with a negative spin on things. "The person's bloodline always causes problems for their crew leader, how many times before you say it's okay to pre-judge the bloodline?" or "this group of crew leaders and hands are always together and they never let any new blood in, making things stale and demotivating to the newer bloodlines" 

Well, can't blood lining be a positive thing, also?

If a family has a history of refusing to cling to their life, once their family has been attacked because fighting for the memory of their friends and family means something to them, surely that deserves some credit? Even if only unspoken respect or admiration for their dedication and commitment?

Or, if another family has a well established practice of getting into safe lists even when they're made man and up because they're considered innately calm and smart enough to see when fighting back is futile, isn't that something worth considering as an advantage, even if only to try to preserve the survivors of your family in the event of your death?

My family's ancestors, from what I read in their journals always preferred stories of the older days of war, when everybody used to die. When there was need to say things like "scorched Earth" policy, because it was implied with the beginning of the take down.

Then, it separated those who'd accept their fate and make the most of it from those who'd have their bloodline's name publicly dragged through mud just to cling to their life. Of course, they would also be frustrating times. That just because your crew leader messed up, even once... but enough for it to be deemed a removable offence, you'd have to go too. 

With these days seeing pro orders and more lenient offerings of asylum for the non-violent in increasingly more frequent waves of take downs, does it really mean enough to people that they survived? That their crew leaders next of kin can know for certain that if they were ever to get a position as a crew leader they shouldn't expect you to be loyal enough to not move on just as soon as the offer came along?

Wouldn't you yourself prefer to know, even if it's only a selfish indulgence to believe it... that there are people willing to die, spartan style, for the honour of their name and yours? That bonds of bloodlines can be forged in battle and continue long after your life and death has faded with time?

What do you think? Do you believe that a show of integrity that can be used to bolster the reputation of your bloodline is worth dying for? Or do you believe how people see you is irrelevant compared to keeping on and building your personal skills with the one life you have? 

I shall leave these Q and As from a few members of our society up here on the wall of this mini-mart for anyone who is interested in having a ganders. 

 

"To be clear this isn't about when your crew leader who you went out your way to get a job with dies of random causes. Old age retirement, a gun training exercise gone wrong or they were caught with their hand in the jar and were tried and executed for it (but no one else joined them)

This is specifically about war time and people's decision to choose to move to another city or district instead of fighting on and going down with the ship."

Cin

 

You've been vocal about your disdain for "ship jumping" whatever the reason. Ancestors of yours, even though not aggressive and fighting back have remained unsponsored after your CL died and waited to be killed by the enemy rather than leave your city. 

Would you please give a brief summary of why you believe moving on is wrong.

 

I believe you make the choice to join the family and when it's war time you should stick by them, through thick and thing. Simple, it's loyalty it's not about self preservation. 

 

Can you cite any examples from your ancestral journals that support your argument as being a good thing?

During a war there was a CL from another city who approached my ancestor about being safe listed if I joined them. They had more respect for me and my next of kind for turning them down than for joining me. 

 

What (if any) are the exceptions to your view?

During a war there aren't any. No matter who you are you should be shot. Scorched Earth policy.

 

If you were a CL, as your ancestors have been... do you REALLY expect and wish upon all of your members a death due to fighting to make the tiniest of scratches in the enemy, when they could continue building their lives?

 

I couldn't predict what they would do, but I would hope they would show loyalty. That it's not about self preservation and if there were any others fighting that they would join the fight too. That's what I genuinely hope. It's the city that took them in and did their best to keep them safe. So yes, as a crew leader I would hope they fought back even if they were a gangster.

 

Given that there are already "power house" cities, if everyone was afraid that 1 leader dying could lead to an all out annihilation of their city, why would anyone want to go to a smaller city that's more likely to lose all key structure in a first wave?

 

I think if there was a power house is constantly killing people they're the one's who're paranoid. Then their own city will rise up against them. No one lives for ever. 

So in our community moving out of the big city and being the weaker city is a chance you take, regardless of the out come. You won't know if you don't try.

 

 

Do you have any other comments about this subject? 

 

I think loyalty is very under rated and not taught any more. Getting used to ship jumping and people forget there are loyal people out there who will actually get their back. I respect bloodlines who're loyal more than those that aren't.

 

Karmen

 

 when it comes to the topic "ship jumping" or leaving a city/district during war time because your crew leader dies... Would you please give a brief summary of what you believe

 

 Your crew leader gives you protection, gives you a home, is your friend, your family, might even possibly give you money to pay for your bodyguards. When your life is in danger and you're facing death and your response is to go join someone else's crew instead of fighting in your crew leader's honor, the friendship, the trust, the faith your crew leader had in you was for nothing. I will lose a lot of respect for that person's bloodline in the future because they jumped ship instead of going down swinging.

 

Can you cite any examples from your ancestral journals that support your argument as being a good or bad thing?

 

Well it wasn't on my end but I could cite when RoryRourke and JaoaPaiva tried to wipe out Spike and his Family and the rest of DT that wasn't targeted came together and ended up pulling through and staying alive.

 

I don't wish death on anyone. But I would hope that my Family loves me enough as their Crew Leader to want to at least OFFER their assistance. If we were going down, I would say. You know, you are more than welcome to help. But please don't just leave my crew before I'm even dead.

 

What about when you're dead. Let's say your RHM or another made member survives their attempt and sets up to continue the fight. Would you want the rest of your crew to join up with them, or at that point are you okay with them leaving the city to find a new home?

 

At that point, I think I would be okay with them seeking shelter. If I were to be dead. But, if I were still alive and people just left my crew, I would be highly disappointed. I mean, there would be some I'm sure that would want to help the RH that set up try to fight and go down swinging. I don't expect everyone to have that attitude though.

 

what effect do you believe age and/or rank plays in whether or not a mobster should die fighting, or be allowed to jump ship?

 

If someone has been in the crew a couple months, I think they should WANT to go down fighting. But if it's someone that didn't even get their button yet, and the crew leader dies, I would hope that they'd try to seek refuge.

 

 so if someone had been alive for months in your family, but wasn't a made man... how would you feel about them not fighting for your honour?

 It wouldn't be AS crushing as if a Consigliere that had been in the crew for months just left and joined someone else. But it would still be a bit upsetting. If someone is a two day old Goomba, I don't expect them to try to fight. But if someone is a 180 day old Consigliere, I would hope they'd want to go down swinging.

 

any other comments on this topic?

 

alright so if you were to wake up and your HQ is crumbled and your crewleader is dead, the RH and LH are dead, and the made members around you are dead, and for whatever reason you're still alive, you would arrange funerals, attend them, say your peace, and you would go try to find a refuge. but if you leave while your crew leader is still alive, the RH and LH are alive, that's ship jumping and that's terrible.

 

Sasha

 

 You've been vocal about your opinions defending people who've chosen to move on with their lives instead of fighting and holding grudges against the victors, and you've also chosen to move on yourself. 

 

That is correct

 

 Would you please give a brief summary of why you believe moving on to another city instead of fighting to the death isn't a bad thing.

 

Well as you seen that takedown was done swiftly the only damage us the defenders could do was to soft targets while the whole going down guns blazing is noble the damage we would have done was minimal as the main targets would have either been protected or out of our reach. So really all we would have done was thrown our lives away for nothing in the end while maybe taking out a couple of soft targets that would have really gained us nothing.

 

When do you feel someone should stick around, or shouldn't?

 

That depends

 

on?

 

Lets take when SpikeS shot himself. he had a nice gun and one of my kin fought helping the defenders in that and was ready to even help spike as much as they disliked him but their crewleader was loyal to him. he could have done damage to the attackers not just taken out soft targets, but could have taken out crew leaders or caused crewleaders to suffer that dreaded 1%

 

 so would you agree that it's fair to say you believe so long as there is a champion to rally behind, people should stay and fight... once there isn't, then it's time to admit defeat and move on?

 

Well there is that but i wouldnt begrudge anyone that thought that way. My bloodline will stand and fight NFP (no f*cking problem) and has done so in the past. 

now when this attack happened (recent Detroit take down) Sasha looked and seen chaos all the big guns including her CL where dead she knew there was nothing that could be done. While she seen some defenders scramble she knew that those defenders wouldn't even make a dent. Sasha isnt a samuri warrior but a business women. As we know bloodshed is bad for business while we accept it at the end of the day its all about the money. 

 

Do you believe there are any exceptions to your way of thinking? 

 

That a big call i like to think that if there is even a slight chance to really do some damage to the attackers then do it. take the war that removed spike, Walters last stand he could do some damage. It was an honour to stand with him and fight on even though towards the end he was only hitting soft targets. but there was that chance he could slip in a big shot which he would try for.

this time though the 6 cities have been effected by to much bloodshed. many are just restarting trying to help rebuild the 6 cities. the last thing we needed was another war but as you know this line of work is pretty unstable.

 

can you cite any examples when a mobster refrained from retaliating during a war and it led to something positive?

 

Well we can take Credits and Rusty as an example they took a lifeline to join Chicago, where they both lived and rebuilt. now while there little rebellion didnt pan out the way they intended it very easy could have. I think credits missed on Duplicity Kimble Senza Mibbit off the top of my head. had he have hit all of them the chaos after would have been something to behold.

 

That sounds more like an argument that allowing people to ship jump isn't beneficial.

 

 It can be. thats why they argument about scorched or no is a hot topic.

 

 that's a funny pun, Visas. (Sasha's nickname)

 

i try <3

 

Would you trust someone's bloodline to join your family or be a captain if you were ever to become a Chairman Godfather if they've got a history of not fighting until the end for their family and city?

 

Ahhh very good question now that comes down to integrity dont it? If they are willing do do anything to stay alive that should send alarm bells ringing. See there is that stigma that can stick from opting for the life line. can they be trusted or will they sell you out 1st chance they get? I am more inclined to reward those that prove themselves to me take my great grand mammys City of Detroit. The worst thing Visas son seen was the destruction of that city, only a handful survived. he was not bitter at those who lived but happy for them, even her (Visas') last right hand 'yournextwife' for living. though Jake and her came under fire for living. but to be honest the destruction of Detroit was pretty intense and any resistance was futile.

 

are there any other comments or opinions you'd like to share about the topic?

 

 cant think of any off top of my head. 

 

Martii

 

 

Would you please give a brief summary of  your opinion on this topic

 

 first off. when a war starts its the people at the top that start it ambition greed etc you name it the top have it. the little man pays for it. but we also know that our boss is who we owe our loyalty too, not the city not the godfather, our familys boss. if our boss commands us to fight on we fight on, if our boss tells us to run we fucking run.

now i believe that there are times when one can continue to fight if the boss falls and his RHM sets up. that rhm is an extension of the boss so u stay with him. if the rhm falls the lhm sets up u continue, if the lhm falls then u have the choice to make. do i fight this war where my family is effectively dead? or just sit out and find a new home. wars are won when the leader is killed. without leadership the little guy is no threat, the little guy may work hard for the family but his family is gone, what sense does it make to throw your life away so that society praises you?

I have no clue why sun tzu says in the art of war one must know when to retreat. one must know when he has been defeated, if the leadership of the family is dead, u have no more allegiances cause they have ended. it is time to move on.

vilifying people who have fought hard but have lost and now want to surrender is cowardly and wrong. they fought with all they had but every fucking person fears death. yeah some people go down guns blazing and more power to them. but back in the day mercy was shown to people when the cl died but we have lost mercy during this time period.

it is the time we live in so we just take it in stride. ultimately it is up to you. how do u want to be looked at. thats my opinion.

 

 

Are there any exceptions as to when mobsters shouldn't attempt to save their lives?

 

as i said. if the boss instructs that everyone goes down swinging then u fucking go down swinging. if the rhm and lhm are alive u better stay and put up a fight. the boss took care of ur ass so show the respect to fight for those hands cause they represent the boss, until leadership dies u keep fighting. if the boss has put in instructions on where to go if he is to die u follow them. 

 

can you cite any examples from your ancestors journals, where someone who refrained from fighting back after their CL died... joined a new city or family and it was a positive thing?

 

 back in the day. I dont really have journals to help me learn much about that era but i remember hearing about an ancestor of mine was a member of a crew in philly, amazing crew. they were hospitalised and inactive for a week due to health issues and when they came back they was left without a crew everyone was dead boss rhm and lhm. they knew it would be retarted to go out guns blazing when they never was good at shooting and their biggest strength was earning money. so they begin to look for a new home. i believe a woman called appollonia took them in and they served her well being the best earner in her crew during their run with her, she took a chance and they repaid her trust. they were just a simple guy but she gave them a chance and repaid her trust and it was positive for her. 

 

Would you trust someone's bloodline to join your family or be a captain if you were ever to be a CGF (Chairman Godfather) if they've got a history of not fighting until the end for their family and city? 

 

 if he leaves and the rhm and lhm are alive and he doesnt fight for them that man is not trustworthy in my opinion because essentially he leaves while his leader is alive. the rhm and lhm represent the boss so i wouldnt want to appoint someone who would leave as soon as i die while my hands are still fighting. 

 

are there any other comments you'd like to make about this topic?

 

ultimately we must decide what we feel is the right course of action. thats my belief.

Rob scans the different flip charts put up for display by Madara's men. After going through them, he shakes hands with Madara and listens to what he has to say before Rob shares his view on the matter.
 

“First off, I think your summary for the basic arguments to fight for your family is a bit off and misses some of the points the people you spoke with mentioned. The fact that a crewleader would risk losing money by accepting a new associate in their family is a weird statement to begin with. If that really should be the source of an associate's gratitude, something is pretty twisted already, but that’s another discussion. What’s really missing is that fighting for your family should be the obvious choice if there is a sense of family, of unity, because you’ve gone great lengths together. A family should be part of your identity and not just some agreement with someone who offered you a bed in return for the occasional kickup of money. If it’s truly a part of your identity, than fighting for your family is a no-brainer, because it’s really you who is under attack and not just your boss.”
 

“What ones choice should be is hard to say as multiple factors influence a decision. Their sense of family, their relations outside of this world, their capabilities, short-term honour or determination to bring revenge on the long term. If there’s doubt whether to fight, the problem really exists in the past already. There should not be doubt. Often there are two people guilty for that doubt. A member for never having cared or worked enough to be included among the loyal bunch of a family. And a leader for not truly inspiring and guiding their member to be among the top of their family and to have truly earned their loyalty.”

“Creating that true sense of family is hard work, but rewarding. It’s also a two-way street. Neither party can sit back and expect the other to show all the efforts. If that sense of family was never there it feels hypocrite to expect people to suddenly start fighting for ‘their family’, often when the war already has been lost.”

“Wrapping this up, to me there is more honour in fighting for your family. At some point I can imagine there’s no sense in fighting if there’s nothing to gain but death. I won’t be too judgemental for those who try to continue their life elsewhere. The question is if they’ll just be a sole survivor or whether they’ll work their ass off to prevent they don’t have to stand by once more as their new family gets into a fight? Again… the same two parties play a role in the outcome to that question.”
 

Keats listens intently, grateful for the well organized and thorough analysis that Madara had gathered.

knowledge is power so they say. I believe there is no right or wrong just opinions. 

Martii heads up to his buddy madara and brings out a pack of cigs to smoke.

How has it been looking Madara?

Chris wanders out into the streets. Its a nice day, the sun is shinning, the birds are tweeting in the trees, the status quo continues unabated... No, no, no jabroni, not that Status Quo, the status quo that means a continuation of an existing state or condition. Sometimes the Rock despairs at you people. He listens to Mardara's long winded and sometimes downright boring speech, but gets enough of it to understand the gist of his points. He didn't remember giving Martii permission to speak though so he makes a mental note to slap the yellow of his teeth when he returns to his HQ.

"Finally, The Rock, has returned... to the Streets. Yes Madara, its been a long time since the Rock has graced these streets and talked trash with the masses. over a year to be precise. however, something that you said struck a cord with the Rock. Something about Loyality and going down... you do know the Rock like Pie? Anyway jabroni, what were you saying? It doesn't matter what you were saying. The Rock came her today to tell you what he was saying.

You see the Rock likes loyalty. The Rock doesn't like to see people dying on his behalf, but the Rock likes to know that something he has done makes people want to fight on after he is gone. Where the Rock draws the line though, is people who can't fight, the millions... and millions of the Rocks fans, who can't go one on one like the great one himself, laying down their lives for no reason. As Martii said, if the Rock is dead. If the Rocks hands are dead as well. If there is no one left in the Rocks family who can carry the fight with any chance of winning, the Rock expects his members to get themselves to safety. There is no point in any member of my family, regardless of rank, who has not trained their gun to the point where they can defeat the enemy, fighting to the death for no reason.

If the Rock's members live on after his death. If the Rock's loyal members carry a part of the Rock with them and go onto greatness themselves, then a part of the Rock lives on. And if a part of the Rock lives on, did the Rock ever, truly die?

Madara if you will forgive me for touching upon this topic so late, and for replying in the place of Ragnarok.

As you said, the only reason why the person in this particular situation isn't a Made Man is because they wished to perform activities that are deemed to be 'below' the dignity and honour of a Made Man. If such is the case, we cannot expect that these people, who perform such morbid and dishonourable tasks, seeking profit, are to be accustomed the same privileges and duties that Made Men would. This includes the perceived duty of a Made Man to fight until the bitter end; to die for their leader if necessary.