Hear yee Hear yee! Honestly, fuck all that! I'll be blunt and to the point.

Apathy clears his throat and takes a shot of whiskey.

It seems times have changed my friends. Times have changed indeed. There was once a time, as many of our bloodlines know very well, that even suciding out of a city was banishment. Hell, for even a under made to not be "loyal" and jump to another city they were black balled as a piece of shit worthless fucking gangster on these shores.

Apathy waits and bit then conts...

Then it was allowed if it was only "under made +". And again we saw many many worthless not understand and a few died.

Apathy laughs as he begins his next statment....

Now, this is the doozy! Now , If your CL is dead( and hands which is debatable as some hands are still around after wars ...Ironic I know but its the way it is) and the hands, then its ok for Made+(who swore life and death to a city/district to move on).

Apathy laughs more but this is a serious question to show the state of the mob world as "WE" know it.

If this is how we currently operate(it could be if you all Look around real good it is SO ), Are you all proud? Is this what we all were taught and raised with? I mean we know the answer is NO! But why is it so accepting to throw away all morals this world is based on. Its really hard to fathom how ppl still claim loyal, when 75% of the powers that be were and are not loyal. Are you loyal when following someone who saved their own ass then actually fighting for the previous city/crew/district ect? Can you believe you loyal as a Made, when you jump to the otherside when your CL dies? Is that what this world is about? If so, and its totally accepted, then so be it. Just like to know the playing field when all these bitchs claim old school and half couldn't hold old school to their dick even if they took the blue pill and were here at the time. Just a few things to ponder and wonder when all you new bloodlines start claiming things you don't undertstand and don't practice. Any insight on this new change is greatly recommended.

Apathy prepares for the hate on a topic most already know the answer to before he got on his soapbox!

"At least this guy is true old school, delivering his speech standing on a soapbox." Rob thinks by himself as he swiftly makes his way through the crowd who gathered to listen what Apathy had to say.

"So, what's the real problem you are having here? People jumping ship after takedowns, I guess."

"I agree that it's not the most beautiful thing when people jump ship, but I rather look at why people do it, instead of bitch that people do it.
A lot of people aren't loyal anymore, because they aren't being taught to be loyal. There's hardly any 'old-school' around that actually inspires loyalty as they once did. Majority of the old-school families our society has to offer doesn't engage in public conversations. They don't step up the plate and build solid businesses from the ground up in dangerous times. Instead they gather behind well-trained hitters and stay quiet as that probably gives them the easiest and longest ride in this place. The general idea that even old-school seems to have is that it's about living long, instead of living well.
 

If so many old-schoolers have so less to offer these days, I can't blame new blood to our shores if they fail to impress as well. Let's praise old-school for truly they lived great lives in the past. But the fact that you were part of that bunch means fuck all today if you don't act accordingly and make good use of that experience.

If we get disappointed about the sorry state of loyalty and the understanding of other mafia values, it's because as a society we allowed it to grow like that. And it's not about pointing the finger and say which regime and which era's fault is that. It's the fault of every one that could do better, but failed to do so because they were lazy or they figured someone else would fix things - myself included.
And that simply makes that the old-school who let it slip isn't nearly as great as the ones who held it firmly together many, many years ago.
 

Perhaps I'm more disappointed in the bunch that knew better, but fucked up anyway, than the naive new bunch that simply does what seems to be the norm. So Apathy, I'd love to see less ship jumping and more true loyalty. But let's address the actual problems that make people jump ship."

I see your points well Rob. But alas, I was never a hidden person. I never closed lines behind people as they did their thing. Not my sytle. I taught as I was taught. Is it my fault they cared about rank and if they lived then dting for their faamily. I seen made+  basically crying a rogue happened and couldn't deal with it as it seemed so "bad" that someone wanted them dead. And they are always a made+ or a lhm. How fucking pathetic.

As a boy of 5, I saw more then most. I get that, But when vaules are passed down and no one heeds them. We just conform. Seems so!And if you believe no one can pass them along, wtf are you doing to help that?Your a GF chair RHM, seems you have some influence. Are you truely passing along knowledge or just living to die?

Based on most of what you said, your not passing along shit, Your living to die, or hoping to forever live as most here are anymore.

Fair points and I'm not afraid to point the finger to myself, as I already did when I first commented. I'm not a hypocrite and I realize that I've done far less than I could. My direct ancestor lived his life leading a family and even a small city. Those who were apart of that adventure can tell that he did try to pass things along there. From tales I have heard it was hard work, but it paid out in having a true sense of family.
 

I probably have the same skill set to do that as well, but my ambitions are different. I chose to support others, instead of running my own family. In that, instead of passing things along to associates, I can share my insights and ideas with others leaders. I'm no leader of this community, but for sure am I supporting those who are and I'm passing my knowledge along so they can do a better job.
 

I'm not living to die. I guess it's obvious I have seen my fair bit of action, instead of trying to avoid getting in danger. But things change and when one type of action was needed when Chicago was just a small city, the current times call for a different type of action. The challenge is to care for our society. To govern in a manner that not only protects our interests, but also in a way that build the community. I'm probably one of the few in this place who actually dares to confess he finds that hard, but it's only fair to admit. Sometimes those two things  are conflicting and that makes for difficult choices. I don't think I'm the one who can get our society in the right direction, but for sure I am trying to point it there. And yes, I could try harder, but at least I try.

That's for me personally, but the discussion shouldn't necessarily be about me. In the end as a community we should aim for something and try to get there. It's not about Godfathers leading the way and everyone else stays where they are, watching, hoping the leaders mess up. It's not about people like you who do a once-in-a-lifetime speech and disappear afterwards. All the strong individuals in this world should play their part, a part fitting to their skills and make a continued effort. In that combined effort this place can really start to flourish once more.

Problems don't get solved by pointing out there's a problem. We need solutions and the people willing to carry out those solutions.

The problem comes when people do not wish to carry out solutions. They are happy with the mess things are and just leave it alone.

I think a lot more people would be willing to comment if this conversation took place in a different venue.

    All the same, I really don't care what people think about my opinions anymore after all this time and I'm sure there are just as many people that don't care what my opinion on this topic is, let alone those that won't even put in the required effort to read and reply to this rather important topic, so I'll share my views anyways.

    The idea of a protection order, in my opinion, was brought about simply to undermine the powers of those that have or recently have had a family with a majority of crew members being of recent acquaintance and, at the same time, from the need of attacking powers to constantly expand their power base.  Newer bloodlines to leadership are effected by this tactic more drastically than veterans since they are still in the process of creating social ties.

   Without the reality of impending death looming down upon family members of a fallen leader, the motivation for many cowards to defend their fallen leader is gone.  This now standard practice has created the unfortunate reinforcement of the type of selfish values we should be trying to eradicate from this system.  

    The modern fact that once you join a family you don't necessarily join it for life anymore is completely detrimental to social life here, since many mobsters now know they don't even need to bother getting to know the people they currently associate with to begin with since it is completely probable that, if they are not really putting forth the best effort to begin with, they will be allowed to live on without shame and regrets.   This is a slap in the face of what the mafia and organized crime is and turns this life into an anti-mafia with two types of people.

   On one hand we have a bunch of semi active coma patients that drift through life here until they eventually outlast everyone putting forth a really boring example of what it takes to last long and be successful for new people to this world.  And on the other hand we are left with a bunch of thugs without honor, respect and moral values running around with titles playing king of the hill, getting to know people in other families, constantly leaving their positions once said leader dies, who gives a fuck if they were a Hand of their former family to begin with right?  I'm sure they'll be loyal to me, let's make them a hand over here, auth them, ect. all because they actually put in effort.

   All things considered, in a sense, it's all OK.  Because the only thing that matters is what you can do and what you can get away with and if this includes leaving a bunch of dead stiffs in the dust that you swore undying loyalty to as you progress onward, possibly while laughing about it all without even giving a second thought;  if the world allows you to do so, then so be it.  That is the REALITY of the cause and effect world we live in.  The question is, is this practice healthy for this world? The answer is unfortunately NO.

  What we are left with is a cheapened experience that pushes away new blood to this world since all they ever see is a bunch of people simply in it for themselves and, on the other end of the spectrum, laziness being rewarded (and in some instances understood after 300 plus days of being around).  In other words, a click fest with no purpose (yes I know, my OCCitis is acting up).  All in all, not very exciting.

Disclaimer-I'm not referring to anyone in particular here at all, living or dead.  My aforementioned opinion has been my bloodline's general observation of things here for quite some time without anyone in particular standing out and that's simply because it happens to almost everyone now....and that's a damn shame.

She stops and listens, taking in every word and smiles.

Amazing, finally, a discussion. Something I can relate to. Don't get me wrong, streets filled with love, joy, friendship, and all of the fluffy things are great. I'm so glad so many people have such happy lives. I really am, BUT it is discussions like these that can start change, even in the smallest amount, it is change. This world needs some of that. 

My family has been in these cities for eons, seems like decades at times, and for the first time in all of the journals I can honestly say that my most recent ancestors have said things like the following:

"It's okay, if you're a hand you can take that safe list and survive while you watch your entire family fall around you. Just go home, go to bed, and don't talk to anyone. Don't answer your phone, door, or any other means of communication with the outside world. Unless of course it's the person on the opposing side wanting to have a chit chat over a beer and the blood of your fallen brothers and sisters."

Not often (I won't say never because I'm sure it happened.) before this new "generation" so to speak (Sadly, the older bloodlines now follow this ridiculous notion.) did you see a family leader's right or left hands live after a war that saw the end of their family, right down to earners and gangsters. If you did, it was because they were traitorous cunts and probably helped the opposing side in more ways than they will ever admit. You sure didn't see the loyal ones go on to actually take up residence in the very crew that their blood sworn brothers, sisters, and friends had worked so hard to see removed. You didn't see those trustworthy, respectable hands move into a Hand position with that leader either. The thought of a person that a leader trusted so much doing any of this was not acceptable. You'd think the people they had sworn to guide and keep safe would have meant more to them than that. You would think that their bond to the leader they were helping in such an honoured upper structure position would mean more to them than that. If they lived long enough to become a leader themselves it was a miracle, not to mention surviving to become the strongest Godfather in the country. Best part though, usually, their actions tend to bite them in the ass in the end. 

I understand to get to the top you have to work hard, but there are traditions that can't be overlooked. You shouldn't be city jumping if you are Made or above for shits and giggles after your leader dies. You shouldn't accept a hand position if you are not willing to go down with the ship even if you are safe listed. This happened to an ancestor of mine. Her entire city was wiped out while she was away. She came back to her world in shambles and took the first hand to safety she could reach for. Then she found out what happened and had someone help her leave the world with a clean conscience. She had been a hand to the opposite side. She should not have been safe listed. She wanted to die with honour.

Yes, while conquering the rungs to the highest plateau of our country's crime world you have to step on people, you have to trash talk those who actually cared about you, you have to destroy friendships with your greed and paranoia, you even have to kill your own business associates you gave permission to go out on their own to. You have to keep your own ass alive and say fuck it to those that supported you and helped you build to where you are and were early in life... You get to make special "kill lists" that are bloodlines you and your cronies are afraid of for some reason or another. You get to run entire bloodlines from the cities with the pull of a trigger. You can kill every generation of them until they just stop getting involved in our world. You can do this with no feeling of remorse or guilt. Why worry about a shrinking number of thugs you can pull into your family business? The best part? You do not have to explain WHY you did it. You can just sweep it under the rug and not come out and tell people why. Or you can make up some bullshit cover story like a fishing trip gone wrong with a mass drowning or pack of wolves. It doesn't matter, you're the one everyone fears and a few may respect.

This world isn't what it used to be and in some ways that's a good thing while in others it's disheartening and soul crushing. I've rambled on enough here, probably strayed from the topic at hand to. So have a nice day and don't forget to wash behind your ears. Especially you Apathy.

She toddles on down the street hunting a wascially wabbit.

Apathy listens intently while others rise up and express their views on the topic at hand. Through the yrs, Apathy's bloodline doesn't come to the streets often, his bloodline isn't much for stepping up and talking to the masses about everything, but now and then it needs to be done. Smiling at seeing a real active discussion in the streets, on a very important topic and a way this underworld is headed, its refreshing to see people take heed and address it.

Clearing his throat, Apathy begins to speak...

Thanks you for those that have expressed where they stand on this issue. Its always nice to see that maybe the Old Ways are not dead to everyone, some of us do still hold them true and try to do what we say. I think so far, everyone has made some valid points. I'd love to hear more reactions on this, maybe some reaction from some bloodlines that have excerised these new views that seem accepted in the world we live now. Would like to see if some of us can see the thinking that goes behind the actions, but regasrdless I thank you all for the turnout and hope to hear more views.

Apathy lits a cig and leans against a wall to listen some more.

Obscura leaned against a brick wall as he listened to each speaker.  His salt and pepper hair betrayed a slightly younger face, but his body was tired; years of traveling and the march of time had made him this way.  He cleared his voice after the previous speaker.

I appreciate throwbacks.  The old times were a heyday for a lot of our bloodlines, and I am positive that those who had lines that stretched back into those older days remember their father’s father (and so on) reminiscing about the strictness of the time.  While I agree mostly in spirit, I think an aspect missing from these conversations that has been neglected up until this point is the fact that mobsters in those days simply didn’t have the resources or the longevity that come with the current generations.  

For my money, the simplest explanation for the change in mentality that we’re lamenting is due to the simple fact that people have more to lose.  I don’t think anyone in this world would appreciate having a long investment ripped out of their hands for something that they didn’t believe was worth it -  or having their existence snuffed out as if they were a years-long sacrifice in the making.  We’re in the Mafia - greed comes second hand to many of us.  To say that it stops short when it comes to someone’s own life is naive, in my opinion.  A leader who asks of his members the ultimate price should command the respect of his members, and it is possible that we may have taken these things for granted in the old days when it was a simpler time.  Due to how our world has changed, it just simply can’t be boiled down to a one-dimensional aspect anymore.  Things have changed.   I recognize that, now.  Our job is to adapt and work with the times - or we risk becoming fossils ourselves.  

It is also worth mentioning that while we may focus on this trend alone, we are in much respects governed by the same code of conduct as back in the old times - disrespect at the grave is still met with lethal punishment, and we still enforce a sense of respect on the streets.  And, if this conversation has proved anything, betrayal of family is still seen as the gravest of sins in this world.  Seeing it from this perspective, it’s not all doom and gloom in Gomorrah. 

Finally, quoting a previous speaker who used the term “semi active coma patient”, I am inclined to address this point - if only from my particular experience; some circumstances are outside of our control.  Some have obligations outside of these shores.  That is not to say laziness should be rewarded - it shouldn’t.  But these cases are rare.  I’ve been fortunate enough to have some of these obligations lifted so that I can adequately serve the interests of my Godfather and the city of Los Angeles as well as provide advice - which I have always done, if asked.  Others, however, may not have the means to do so, which is why I am hesitant to dole out judgment on those that others seem to perceive as lingering.  Truth is, without knowing someone's story - it just isn't right to slap a label on them without knowing the full picture.  

Laughter echoes upon these shores.

Walks off wondering if anyone of thee old school too accountability for the state of affairs

If somebody is a made and up, and they don't die with their leader in war. That to me basically means fuck you, you were a shit leader. I never liked you or respected you and I'm glad your dead. I thought taking a oath to become made meant you would die for your family. But just wait for a second, lets look at the other side of possibilities. Maybe, there was no oath, some leaders are so shit, that they just promote people without talking to them. Maybe some people really don't like their leaders, there sure have been some shit ones over the times. I've seen some leaders that to my great great great great... fuck i'm not sure how many damn greats but one of my great grandfather's standards could run a crew or a city in recent times. To his standards, it would be questionable if the same person would even be allowed to become made or a hand.

I think this relates to standards. The standard for somebody running a crew or city has diminished in my opinion. I think when a crime family takes control of the streets. The focus for who they choose to allow to run crews is more about who is least likely to shoot me, rather than a combination of many requirements as it used to be. Don't get me wrong, not likely to shoot me is a good requirement when expanding your power, but it shouldn't be the only requirement. I do believe this ties directly in with the "flip flopping" I like to call it. If you don't respect your leader or the person was never really supposed to be a leader anyway. That could be a cause of disloyalty in certain situations.

Respect and loyalty is a two way street, leaders can't just expect to gain a person's loyalty simply because they work for them. We all need jobs we all want to eat, and we don't want to die alone on the streets. We all know what happens if your alone out there for too long. You will get waxed real quick. I like to think that some people were never taught the "old school" way. Knowledge was not passed down to the person, or the knowledge was not sought out by the person. Leader's need to think before they take on a task so great as becoming a hand or crew leader, and see if they really have the time and energy to make the sacrifices it takes to do a good job. Don't do it simply for the title, or just because. Just because isn't a good reason. If you don't do your job, you effect the whole criminal underworld as a whole and reduce the quality of life for your members. It's a responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly.

I'm just babbling on about reasons why i think this has become more common over the years. I like to look at both sides of a problem in order to help find true solutions and the root of the problem. Overall there is no one person to blame, the blame should be shared among the mafia world and community as a whole. This problem has happened on our watch, we allowed it to happen. Can't blame the new generation or the old generation. The "old school" ways don't mean your bloodline has have been here a long time to learn it. It was supposed to be passed down, like a sacred tradition. Generation to generation, much like our sacred knowledge of countless bodyguards and guns and what they can do for you as you pursue your goals. This code of honor and ethics was supposed to be passed down along with the gun and bodyguard knowledge. For my bloodline the knowledge of these unwritten sacred traditions and ways of life is one of the things that kept my family in the life of crime. It would sadden me to see it gone and forgotten forever.

We need cooperation to fix this, it will take one small step at a time. I'm sure we can all look back and find a way we could have helped more. Whether that is just extending a hand to a new mobster to help show them the ropes or whatever it may be. 

I am speaking on a broad term, not pointing at anybody directly or any regime present or past in particular. It's just an observation and opinion from afar.

Louis shrugs in hopes that somebody actually cares....

Well, I am new to this world. Probably my situation is very similar to the situation many of new gangsters here around.

I really would like to know "old way", "how it was before". But all I know is only "new way" or rather "no way".

Why "no way"? Because no one want to be traitor (I am talking now about not experienced gangsters). How it looked like in my situation? My family was killed when I slept. I woke up and learned that my leader is dead, the same most of the family. All around was chaos and I wasn't prepared for anything in this situation. I was confused and I really wasn't able to tell what is right, what is wrong or even where I should go.

This is situation of low rank gangsters - they are tought to listen. Very often leaders don't expect anything more from them. "Remember to always have rules in your heart and listen to upper structures - rest will come with time". Then the person who gives orders disappears...

Well, this is hard for beginners, this is what I think. Maybe the leaders and more experienced members of families should tell more about how loyalty should be understood? Or discuss earlier possible crisis situation? When war starts it is already to late for this...

WhiteGhost stopped talking and quitely hide somewhere in crowd

You can't be faulted for not knowing. In a situation you do what seems to be the best option at the time. With no foundation for what to do in certain situations how could you know what the honorable thing to do is.

Despite being a bit rough around the edges, I actually can relate a lot to what Louis has spoken about here today. 

The positions we hold in this world have the weight, power, sense of duty and responsibility that we empower them with. The rank of Made Man is not just another step, it is the step. I've personally enforced a strict approach to the rank, knowing full well that my position and strength is jeopardized by not maximizing the potential that the numbers and figures within my crew dictate I could have. By holding people back and creating the opportunity to work for the rank, I increase the value and appeal of the position. 

Why? Well if I'm dead, what does it matter if someone switches cities or not? I'm dead, I don't have to deal with any of the shit anymore. While you're alive, It would be safe to assume that the majority of leaders would want to remain engaged and motivating their members to avoid anyone selling them out. 

So to what end do we concern ourselves with who remains loyal once you're dead? 

For me, it's about two things. Mentoring and leaving a legacy. By offering my experience of what I believe our life should be like, I'm hopefully leaving people with impressions and motives that will outlast my life and their own, and carried on by their kin. This world is what we make it, the resources we have been given can only take us so far. 

During my approach and previously, my fathers, I've been introduced to like minded people, guided by like minded people, and developed like minded people. Not everyone wants the same experience, but for those who do, I'm glad to say that the Gato's have been there to offer it. At the end of the day, we're all in this life for our own reasons.

If we're not fulfilling those reasons, then what's the fucking point?

For the original point being made, it is reputation which is ultimately affected. The 'expected standard' is always set by the majority. If someone is not meeting that standard, then their integrity will suffer. If trust and honor was a sheet of newspaper, held tight at both ends, there's only so many holes you can poke in yours before it tears apart, with little chance to repair.

Well I am not new as many others are not new. Some still walk these shores and some flew the coop so too speak. The real question is what defines new?  Is the answer one has one, two,  three, four or more years walking these shores? Or could it be 10 years?  These questions are worth taking the time to sit back and ponder.  I can tell you the expected standards suffocate which leads to stagnation.

Back to why I am here

I think it's fair to say I was right about you the first time around.  You are completely useless to any crew you sign up with as you have no loyalties whatsoever. 

 The general idea that even old-school seems to have is that it's about living long, instead of living well.

Hit the nail firmly on the head there. My recently deceased father had lived this life for a very long time, yet had done fuck all with his life. Sat there idle for many moons. Once he got his finger out his ass and decided to earn himself a decent living, shit hit the fan. Too little, too late.

It happens all the time with the old guard, the majority have kin that come here just to reach out to their friends and aren't entirely interested in building upon their own legacy, so they sit by and watch life pass them by. Simply here to make up the numbers, really.

Anyway, onto the point at hand. If a family head has fallen in time of war, those Made+ should remain fighting. But if you aren't Made and the battle is all but lost, then I see no real reason to throw away a life that wasn't set in stone anyway. Only those that have worked hard and earned the trust of their leader and been promoted to Made or above, should go down with the ship.

I stress though, thats in time of war. If a leader dies from some other mishap like a gun malfunction or indeed the leader chooses to retire to Florida of their own choice, then I personally feel people should be able to then make up their own mind where to go next, not be expected to simply join whoever gets chosen to replace their old boss. 

A lot of the opinions expressed around this subject are moronic. 

How many families actually have their members take vows? I bet it isn't many. And of those that do, what do those vows state and when are they taken? Upon induction, upon getting made; when? Until you know that, you don't know shit about whether anyone is loyal, disloyal or whateverthefuck. How could you? Just because you decided that everyone should toss away their life for a corpse doesn't make it right. What use is that to anyone? Now you have two corpses. Congratulations, you can pat them on their cold dead back and commend them on achieving death - I'm sure they will appreciate it.

Me? I'm much more realistic. None of my Dons (and I've had about 4 up to now) have asked me to say or swear anything to them. I asked them could I be part of their organisation and they said yes. They asked me to tribute some of my earnings and I did. They asked me to send them shot reports and I did. Then one night they got slaughtered and I'm just an unattached, unprotected Wise Guy looking to carve out a little corner for myself so I can get a little money and a little respect. Should I now politely knock on of the door of the toughest motherfucker in the country and ask him for a duel to avenge my former sponsor? Hell no. The only thing that would achieve is a dead Oliver.

Instead, I move on. I keep my little piece of the action and I offer my services to the next dog with a bigger bark than mine who says I can't work here anymore. That is how this shit works. I'm not landed gentry and this isn't feudal fucking England and telling me that my way is wrong just by claiming your view is "old-school" is a cheap way of trying to justify it. At some point in the recent past, people were indoctrinated with this idiotic view about loyalty and that this must manifest itself in a warrior culture where everyone, regardless of ability, connection, oaths, likelihood of success, circumstance and everything else, must lay down their lives in the name of their former Don's corpse. That's just fucking stupid.