If a Godfather wants to make their life public that's fine that's there choice but no it's no ones business what that Godfather does with their time or if they ever come out to the streets. Will they get everyone's respect doing so? No definitely not, but why should anyone be able to question their choices and judgement?

Surely though its in his best interest to keep face with his peers, horizontal communication is key in this world. They should be able to, such is they way of our life. Its safe to assume you didnt really take notice of much of what i said, thats fine, obviously by your logic, thats your prerogative. You as a Crew Leader or Godfather will be judged daily, you will be judged by every single decision that you make and its these actions that will ultimately lead to your survival within the world we live in. To think other wise is just plain daft. 

but would you go question your boss as to why he's not helping you out on the floor while you bust your ass?

Absofcukinglutley i would.  Its my right as an employee to do so (using your own reference), this is whats known as vertical communication, something that is also very important in our world and to master it as a crew leader and a god father would be massively in your favor. Go and ask my Don if you dont believe me.

I feel this entire speech was directed at those currently at the top, whether she wants to admit it or not. It's not asking questions that bothers me, it's how the questions are asked and the manner in which they are asked that bothers me. 

More sentiment lost on me. You have chosen to perceive it as that, i dont know anyone else that has. the speech was designed to insight talk amongst us, discussion- exactly what the streets are for. I dont see the need to get defensive. it would be interesting to see if any other crew leaders feel the same of the original speech.

I firmly believe that allowing anyone and everyone to question whoever the hell they want breeds disloyalty and poor members. We now see an influx of people wanting to become associates and they have the nerve to ask leaders what they can offer them? What can I offer you?

Im struggling to buy into the rules you must set for your regime though? So as a young thug in your set up i couldn't ask a question, i could air my concerns to you? Why cant i ask what you will offer me? See this is where my issue lies, its a two way street. Its not just a one way line of communication. You should be offering recruits an insight, first impressions last, massively in this world. 

Why should I even consider you as if you have expectations from me other than safety and security

Wow, i mean, im trying really hard to keep this respectful here but you're making it really hard for me to remain positive in my approach. As a leader you're, at the very least should be offering a damn sight more than that! You should be trying to involve your members, trying to get the best out of them. Investing time and effort into helping them evolve into an important part of your set up. You strike me as a boss, not a leader. 

So instead of answering, you become condescending and take off? Alright good to know these things.

Thank you for the discussion anyways.

Cowluh strolled on by to a very heated discussion. Word came from one of the land's tyrants leaders that people needed hugs. Despite Cowluh not being around to listen to the full conversation, he could tell when people needed hugs. He set up a quick kiosk using the hay he had sticking out of his mouth, and used his saliva to paint letters on the side; Free Hugs and Flowers! He figured people wouldn't mind if the aforementioned flowers were actually hay.

"Get your hugs here! Free hugs and flowers! I promise I won't drool on you!"

BrotherHec trying to stay as active in the streets as possible so people from other crews dont call him out for not being a good leader decides to stand among the gathered. Taking in the points presented from both sides but one side clearly rang out to him as a voice of truth. His own. 

So i think here is the dilemma young padawans. On one hand you have a certified associate from Las Vegas who is excellent in speech asking the masses in organized crime what they believe the leaders of their regimes should do. Freedom of Speech is an accepted way of life in our wonderful organized criminal day to day life. Its a treat where a goomba can question the rank of a godfather. 

Do we as a community just go with the bare basics or do you think there is a need for there to be standards besides luck to be placed here?

 

Being as there are currently only two Godfathers i cant help but wonder if you are implying they, Senza and Deces, did the bare basics and achieved their role based on luck. Perhaps you arent calling these two people out and that is my own misunderstanding but lets tackle an understanding of the community versus the godfather role.

You are calling for the community to have a say in the way a godfather conducts his business. That is concerning to me as a godfather only is in charge of their city and district.  For a person from Las Vegas to ask the "greater community" the gathered masses on how this should be conducted is bogus. Who is to form an opinion against a Godfather or Godmother and the way they conduct business? There was a time where the rank of made man meant something. There was a time where if you were made you were considered untouchable now that falls to every associate everywhere. I dont think thats a bad thing but with this came the idea that rank from a leader meant nothing. Subconsciously i believe that many have fallen prey to the idea that rank as a whole means nothing a part from units they carry. 

With each person who gets made in my family they have to meet specific requirements outlined for them as individuals. Later i will share a story with you about how i was once challenged for my appointment of the rank of made man. When one reaches those specific requirements they are tasked to express their loyalty in a way that is only known to the made men of the regime. I buy them their first set of bodyguards. I inform them that at any point i will be willing to die for them, that everything i have worked for i would gladly lay aside so they may live. John 10:10. Rank is being lost in this world. It comes when we justify our words and actions by saying things a long the lines of, "Freedom of Speech" or "well we live criminally" there is a loss for omerta and Respect from the community as a whole. This is why i mourned the death of ChristianGato i believe he understood this better than most. 

The bare basics is a curious term to me. Are you implying that all they do is hoard cash and train their bodyguards? Are you insinuating that godfathers basics are not enough? Im not sure if your bloodline has ever achieved such a rank, mine certainly has not, but i know its not a task taken lightly. So the bare basics are still not simple as you seem to be hinting at.

With the ability for so many godfathers do we lack any care about them?

Nope I care about them.

What they truly do? Is this just a free run for people to do absolutely nothing?

 Oh...I may be wrong again but here is that implying of current Godfath..excuse me God mothers not doing anything that i keep seeing.

Again perhaps you mean just the course of time and if that is the case perhaps a specific example or two could help me better understand your question. I, in all of my bloodlines attempts,have yet to see someone achieve the rank of Godfather and not act on it as best as they can. 

I guess what i am trying to understand is why you would ask this specific question. I have been examining this from all angles and have taken as much time as possible to understand this but i cant help but see it in one light. A condescending light that is fixated on creating an irritation of current leadership.The other light i tried to see it in was a preventative of it becoming a way of life where Godfathers and Godmothers just sell their units and walk around aimlessly dictating rules and the like. Still that does not make sense to me. 

You can not ask this question without having a reason for this question pop in your mind. I value you for that. I want to know why. Why do you feel that the godfathers and mothers are doing nothing or that the future people who receive will do nothing? 

Now your standards are perhaps higher than mine. Probably you have a different way you would like to see things run and if so what would that be? I think your questions beg the question: What would you do different? 

In this community I respected those that put in effort. The ones that even though luck and strategy got them to the top they didn't immediately rush in and take it. I understand the benefits of going ahead and taking whatever it is that is available, but is this the right way?

I mean honestly why would it not be? What would be a better way? 

In some ways I feel like the rush diminishes the rank. With the rank itself diminished is there any real respect for the Chairman part or is it just a fancy term?

This is a broad question to a broad audience. Yes there is respect for the person that holds this position as they are the overseer of a city as a collective. They are the ones who make sure everything is working together. Personally i would like there to be just one Godfather in a city. I think its a fancy term but i dont believe that is all it is. 

My final words before i allow you to speak is that i still dont understand why you feel the need to question other cities leadership or question the way the world is ran when you have only been involved in this mob like life for...6 days. Freedom of speech as long as its not disrespectful. Sure but then we have to evaluate what disrespect means. You nor anyone else has the right to come out and freely speak about your demands of your leader or a different cities leader. Why not you may ask? Because its not your place. You dont belong to that city. We dont work as a community as much as we try to convince ourselves of that. If we did Kurgan would be everyones ultimate leader. We work within our own cities and within our own rules. 

A woman once came up to the streets and challenged my appointment of made men. You may have read about her in your parents logs. She challenged my accepting of what she called "Ship Jumpers" she challenged the speed with which people obtained the rank of made man in my family. She did so publicly and of course did not publicly call me out because she was clever. I saw the names of my members listed in her speech and decided to refute her words. She was most courteous and appreciated my explanation. She never deserved one. I did not speak so she could have a better understanding of how The Regime operates. I spoke because she disrespected my members publicly and challenged my leadership which she had no place to do so. Why did she not have a place to do so? First because she was not from my city. Second she was not in my crew. Third because she did not hold a rank of leadership herself. Fourth her intent was to publicly ridicule people and not to help 'the progressive community" Fifth because i said she didnt. Dont get me wrong in saying what i said but i did enjoy most of what she did. Later her and i reconciled the issue at hand and thankfully never again publicly called me out. 

I dont personally am undecided about my feelings towards the freedom of speech concept. We are not in a democracy and i think often we convince ourselves of that because our country is that way. This is a very grey area. I have yet to be convinced that challenging people specifically is a good thing for business or for either individual. I wish to close with this. I meant no disrespect in anything i have said i am trying to simply understand the point and intent behind your message.

BrotherHec turns to cowluh

You look like Fabio to me. 

I believe people are too hung up on who holds the current ranks for Godfather. I will make note that there are no Godfather Chairmen yet I addressed it about that rank as well. So if you want to place it on the people holding the ranks rather than the actual rank itself that is your prerogative but no where have I stated specific names or examples of people currently holding the rank. So do not push that into what you think I am saying when I will say it flat out of that is the case.

Let's not take something and twist it until its something it is not meant to be.

Also, you are a bit too hyped up on bloodlines once again. Bloodlines have no place here. What anyone did or didn't do is none of my business. My name is Chthonian. Please place all your judgement on what I actually do. Anything else is irrelevant to me.

Correct me if I am wrong but Slash made an appearance stating that a crew leader meeting had happened and bloodlining was wrong. Not to mention that people should be allowed to voice an opinion on the streets. Attempting to shut me up or pushing towards bloodline means is going against that. At least I think so. So either the leaders agreed that voicing thoughts, discussions and concerns was allowed or they didn't. They agreed to leave the bloodlining in the past or they didn't. So which is it?

Until I start calling you out for something in a disrespectful manner (apart from observation that anyone can see and truthful commentary as I see it) then by all means start throwing it my way. But if you aren't going to follow what was agreed upon from my understanding of that meeting, then you need to come out here and correct it. Suddenly it will change from "people can utilize the streets" to "some people can utilize the streets but others can't" or maybe "The streets are off limits to discussions."

If you want to continue with the actual conversation,  I am all ears.

BrotherHec shakes his head.

I spent all that time addressing your original questions and you dont even respond to them? Well...Let me begin tackling this one. 

I believe people are too hung up on who holds the current ranks for Godfather. I will make note that there are no Godfather Chairmen yet I addressed it about that rank as well. So if you want to place it on the people holding the ranks rather than the actual rank itself that is your prerogative but no where have I stated specific names or examples of people currently holding the rank. 

"I believe People" okay good we see that you do speak about specific people without mentioning their names. This is good to know. I am not hung up on the intent as i have stated repeatedly that i was hung up on your intent on asking. Of course you would know this if you would have listened to what i actually asked. 

So do not push that into what you think I am saying when I will say it flat out of that is the case.

Why not? Freedom of speech right? Especially when i am asking a question.

Let's not take something and twist it until its something it is not meant to be.

Like that of freedom of speech in the world of mafia? Noted.

Also, you are a bit too hyped up on bloodlines once again. Bloodlines have no place here. What anyone did or didn't do is none of my business. My name is Chthonian. Please place all your judgement on what I actually do. Anything else is irrelevant to me.

 Who is a bit too hyped up on bloodlines? I made a relevant story about this issue. Unless...Was that your parent? I guess i can see why you are frustrated then. Also why dont bloodlines have a place here? I can freely speak about anyone in the past because...freedom of speech right? 

I am not accusing you of being someone you are not. So dont take my words and twist it until its something it is not meant to be...

Correct me if I am wrong but Slash made an appearance stating that a crew leader meeting had happened and bloodlining was wrong. Not to mention that people should be allowed to voice an opinion on the streets. Attempting to shut me up or pushing towards bloodline means is going against that. At least I think so. So either the leaders agreed that voicing thoughts, discussions and concerns was allowed or they didn't. They agreed to leave the bloodlining in the past or they didn't. So which is it?

Wonderful appearance though wasnt it? Quick and to the point. Man he just slashed through it... Get it? Eh Eh?

You came out here and asked the masses a question my Chthonian friend. You got a response. I have not criticized you but asked for clarification on your intention on asking these questions. If that is something you desire to not share thats fine. But since you werent at the meeting let me help you out.

Leaders agreed that voicing thoughts, discussions, and concerns were allowed. As long as they were in a non respectful way. You can be rude because apparently there is a distinction there, but you can not be disrespectful. Did i call you as disrespectful or color you rude? nope. So why are you frustrated? Are you upset that i chose to respond? If that is the case i will not respond to any more of your passive aggressive street speeches that are never aimed at anyone but trying to help create change.

Until I start calling you out for something in a disrespectful manner (apart from observation that anyone can see and truthful commentary as I see it) then by all means start throwing it my way. But if you aren't going to follow what was agreed upon from my understanding of that meeting, then you need to come out here and correct it. Suddenly it will change from "people can utilize the streets" to "some people can utilize the streets but others can't" or maybe "The streets are off limits to discussions." 

Oh i agree. Thats why i asked for clarification from you. Thats why i asked you to listen to what i had previously said. Even then you would have seen i defended you in my own comments trying to say that maybe you were not personally attacking the only two Godmothers around.

If you want to continue with the actual conversation,  I am all ears.

If this were true perhaps you would have responded in a manner that i deserved. I cant believe i took the amount of time i did to respond to your questions and you blew me off like that trying to say im a bad guy for "talking about bloodlines"

So instead of answering my questions, you become flustered and take off? Alright good to know these things.

Just to clarify Explosion, i was not referring to their street presence. I was asking a question that came across more as a statement.  

Finally i agree man. I think both Godmothers are great people. I think they offer a lot. Soon we will have godparents all over the country and as Chtonian was originally trying to get across, i believe, it would be a wonderful thing if activity was vibrant from the leadership down, rather than the regular down to up. 

Slash sits down to listen to whats being said.. taking his time to really take it all in...

So often we find people landing themselves in this position, some work for it, others not so much

Slash shakes his head right away, completely disagreeing with that remark.

Chthonian, regardless of the view someone else may have of someone taking a position of leadership, everyone who receives that permission to do so has earned it. Even if we look at the Free Cities as an example where people took a position of leadership through what many would claim is an easier route, they still had to get themselves into the position to be able to take that role on, which to me is still working for it. If they didnt, they wouldn't last long in the position once they are in it.

I heard a lot about men who did not wish to take on the role until they had reached a higher standard of goals for themselves then just being able to lug around 60 units of drugs and manage to live for 120 days in this community. There was so much more to them that they wanted to achieve before taking on the rank.

A lot? I only know one person in recent history who chose not to take that rank when they were able, that was RobOakheart. I know your mother worked hard for him, so perhaps she had an insight into his reasonings, but even then I thought the move bizarre and expressed as much to Mr Oakheart.

 Do we as a community just go with the bare basics or do you think there is a need for there to be standards besides luck to be placed here?

We as a community don't have single say in the matter, really. The only people concerned with someone taking the role of Godfather as those in that district, and if Godfather Chairmen then those in that City. The community really isn't something that has to concern itself with whether or not the person is entitled to that role. Luck has been mentioned a few times, everyone needs luck to stay alive in this dog eat dog world of ours, but let me stress that luck is a very small part of anyone achieving enough success to merit that position, hard work is far away the most important factor and I dont think in my days i've ever seen a Godfather who had zero hard work to get them there.  

In some ways I feel like the rush diminishes the rank. With the rank itself diminished is there any real respect for the Chairman part or is it just a fancy term?

Well only you seem to have the opinion the rank was diminished by some sort of rush. I think waiting for 4 months before you can take a position is quite a long wait indeed. So I see no rushing around here with that. With that said, I really dont see any value to the rest of the comment so i'll leave that there. 

By definition, when somebody takes on the rank as Godfather Chairmen, they don't have a boss and in my opinion are free to make that power move. Although they have this right, any wise leader making this move would surely consult the opinion of their fellow district leaders. 

Couldn't agree more, Mr Utopia 

I agree, i also applaud those who work their socks off and put the effort in but sometimes that just doesn't cut it, does it? You need an element of luck and plenty of strategic nous, of course you do. People who rise and stay at the top dont do it by making daisy chains and sitting round a camp fire holding hands. 

Exactly what I was leaning towards in my earlier comment, glad i'm not alone in that thinking.

 Why is it none of anyone's business what they see from certain ranks? We all know that we learn from what others do not what they say.. So if they are not putting in the work, why would anyone else?

The two are not necessarily connected. Because you dont see the work, you assume there is none? Thats the wrong assumption to make. If someone is in a position such as Godfather or Godfather Chairman, your assumption should be that they do work hard. Why would you assume anything less just because you personally have no involvement in their day to day business? Thats a very me me me attitude to have.

 I just feel like the rank of Godfather or Godfather Chairman should mean more than simple luck.

It does, it means a heck of a lot more than that and anyone in that position would surely be aghast at the suggestion that it didn't.

 Just because someone stuck you in that shiny bold suit doesn't mean they thought to give you a free ride to money for Bodyguards and setting your next of kin up

This is a very common misconception that leaders are rolling around in money. We are not. The Gods think we are so rich that they ensured we must pay Tax to the Mayor, this tax is unavoidable and the Mayor sends his heavys, aka the Police, to arrest us for tax evasion if we dont stump up the cash. Members are not obligated by this same process to deliver us the proceeds of their own hard earnings, instead each time a member earns money, I owe money. So please don't continue to believe that money is readily available for the hiring of Bodyguards etc, it isn't. If I died today, my next of kin would in fact be in debt, not rich beyond their dreams. I know I'm not the only leader in this situation and I think most are, unless they have been fortunate to be in the position for quite some time.

 I believe it's no ones business as to what The Godfather's do for the fact that they obviously put in the work to attain the rank so they can pretty much do as they please

I shared a similar sentiment earlier, though I think perhaps your stance was overtly strong on that. No-one is taking it too far. The community has no need to know the work the person does, but if their own family can't see them doing anything other than breathing then I'm sure they would be asking questions about the plans for the future.

 We do not live in a fair world, not even close. If a member of mine would like to sit down and bring up another members rank over their own they best be ready for a harsh conversation about the reasons they have not attained the same rank as there will be reasons for that and it would be harsh because I do not feel it is respectful to question these things in regards to a fellow member as the member would come off as entitled to me which is what I'm seeing in a lot of the people speaking here.

You've earned the right to that stance, BobbyMunson. How you run your family is your own business and no-one elses. Should you find yourself all alone wondering where your family went, you would obviously wonder why that is and such strict policies could be the reason, however you clearly are not alone by yourself in a cold dark room wondering these things, so whatever your doing with your family is clearly accepted and perhaps appreciated by them, so no further explanation on your practice is really required. However, just because thats how you run your family, it doesn't mean its the only way or even the right way. It's simply your way. I actually encourage my family to question and learn how things work, I believe being open with them and transparent about things leads to a more fruitful relationship and harder working family. But again, thats my own view and my own policy, I wouldn't dream of trying to say you should work how I work as thats the beauty of there being more than one leader in this world, we all offer a different look at life and each has their own ways.

People can only take from their observations. Not everyone knows what will happen.

And this is why people shouldn't make assumptions. By all means, Ask questions. But dont go asking questions with the belief that you've been wronged in some way as if you start off in an accusatory manner then that will certainly offend the person you are questioning as you are implying they've done something wrong.

 Please don't assume what I would or would not like.

Sorry Chtonian, but as long as you are going to be out here making assumptions, I see no reason why people can't make them straight back to be honest.

 There shouldn't be an absolute freedom of speech or speak your mind attitude here

I disagree entirely Bobby. I know unfortunately when we met up in the Coffee shop that you had disappeared at this point of the discussion through no fault of your own, so perhaps you didnt get to share your opinion very strongly in this matter. However all Leaders at the discussion agreed that provided there is a level of respect there to the comments and people aren't being antagonistic or disrespectful in their comments then there should be no reason why they can't speak their mind freely in the streets.

Perhaps thats what you meant by an absolute freedom, meaning they can't get away with disrespect. In which case I would agree. 

We now see an influx of people wanting to become associates and they have the nerve to ask leaders what they can offer them? What can I offer you?

Heaven forbid that a person choosing to join your organisation should seek some clarity as to their expected role there? Any person I speak to on the streets would always be asked what their goals are in life and what sort of environment they believe they would work well in. I wouldn't want someone to come and join my family to find that they dont fit in. That would be a waste of their time and my time, however I would of course at that point simply allow them to leave anyway. No-one wants an unhappy member, this life should be enjoyed and if the person can't enjoy it because of where they are, they should move. Otherwise what is the point in living?

What i do draw the line with, and perhaps is what you were meaning, is people saying what will you give them to join. Thankfully no-one has approached me in that manner, but I have heard of people making such demands. I wont give anyone promises before they join me, they work hard and earn what they are given or they aren't given anything.

I believe that you have a fascination for bloodlines that holds no weight on the discussion

Well this topic wasn't made on the insight from Chthonian alone, so I don't see why a persons family history shouldn't be discussed. However the manner in which it was, you are correct. Whether someone thinks a persons bloodline has a tendency to flirt the lines of disrespect isnt relevant to this topic. 

I'm sorry I've triggered you two, I will go do my own thing now and leave you to your safe space. Enjoy. I'll send someone by for hugs and flowers for all later.

So instead of answering, you become condescending and take off? Alright good to know these things 

Bobby took time out to answer the questions as he sees it. Whether you agree with his view point isn't really what matters, he still came out and discussed it. Had he simply ignored this question, you would have had a lot less to say on the matter too. So perhaps you should actually remember that instead of just assuming he upped and left, quite frankly I get the impression he left before things got to a place they shouldn't and to me, that was him doing the right thing. He has said his view, you have said yours. There isn't any reason to argue back and forth as we are all entitled to our own views.

There was a time where if you were made you were considered untouchable now that falls to every associate everywhere. 

Being a tad melodramatic with that approach there BrotherHec, associates are untouchable in the sense you can't shoot them. That has always been and will always be the case. So not sure what you are getting at. If you mean they have carte blanche to come out and say what they like without repercussion, you are wrong. If any associate of mine comes out here and disrespects someone, they will hear from me. If they are simply out here asking questions then I will applaud them. Provided respect is there, then there is no reason to fear questions. Only a person who doesn't like his own answer should ever fear a question.

 Rank is being lost in this world. It comes when we justify our words and actions by saying things a long the lines of, "Freedom of Speech" or "well we live criminally" there is a loss for omerta and Respect from the community as a whole. This is why i mourned the death of ChristianGato i believe he understood this better than most. 

Actually Brother, I think you'd find Mr Gato encouraged the open nature of speech more than most, so thats entirely contradictory of his standing from what i saw.

Slash checks his watch and realises there is somewhere that he needs to be right now.

Well, it was good listening to the various views, I'll be back soon to discuss more hopefully. 

Being a tad melodramatic with that approach there BrotherHec, associates are untouchable in the sense you can't shoot them.

It is my biggest flaw. 

I am not sure how many people fear questions at all. If an associate comes out in the streets and starts asking the gathered what they want from leaders in another city, I would politely ask them to refrain from doing that. Reasons include from not being any of their business to not being some kind of democratic vote about a world that couldn't be further from. 

Often, and this is honestly another topic for another day, is I fear we as a community do not understand the difference between one who is made and one who is not made. I don't know if I am wrong and hopefully I am. The fact that I have to question is because for the last five wars I have been involved in, I have not seen much of a difference. Perhaps that difference is not for me to see. 

In speaking about Gato, the reference I am pointing out is with the actions of joe rosagas Philadelphia member who decided to create a really strange collection of names and... it was just weird. He pointed out that something needed to be done about that. The other reference I'm making about Gato is how he treated people in private matters. He was always cordial and very focused on keeping this world what it was. I am not saying he didn't encourage free speech because he certainly did. I agree that he attempted to keep this world open and speaking as they wanted to. In fact I remember there was an associate who spoke so freely about chicago that I found myself baffled completely about any of that being allowed.

Regardless slash wonderful as always to see you. I hope I cleared my points up where I think most of them are just from a standing of confusion. I do too have as well.

Chthonian before I leave I want you to know I have no hard feelings. I personally enjoy that you come out here as you make things more exciting in my mind. I do hope you come out more and bring up more things for people to discuss.

 If an associate comes out in the streets and starts asking the gathered what they want from leaders in another city, I would politely ask them to refrain from doing that. Reasons include from not being any of their business to not being some kind of democratic vote about a world that couldn't be further from. 

I wouldnt so much as ask them to refrain, but I certainly wouldn't expect leaders to come out and explain themselves either. What a leader from another city does is entirely their prerogative and only people that should concern themselves with it is their own family/district/city.

Thank you for coming out in the first instance BrotherHec, and for again returning to offer further comments.