Not sure when it changed that if a member is being held at wise guy and have the units for made man that the moment they buy out from a family they're now able to setup immediately. Also not sure if it was intended, but it causes a major issue in devaluing earning of a button (which was why this used not be possible in the past).

Some will find the increase in rogue runs as a result of this a major issue... but personally I've no great problem with that. If I piss someone off and they're willing to put in the work to hurt me or those close to me, then fair enough. I've work to do to pacify people and keep my family safe. That's all working as intended. 

Where I do have an issue is that it has completely devalued the honour and importance of earning a button within a family again. In the recent past if you wanted to put together a decent rogue run you had to fool a family into giving you that promotion. You had to weasel your way in and earn enough trust that you could then stab them in the back and leave that bitter taste in their mouth. I'm still not sure if this was an intended change or a side impact of another tweak, but it's one I'd certainly like to see a fix be put in place for.

The obvious solution is putting in a timed lockout between buying out of a family and being able to set up a new HQ. This leaves all sorts of options and workarounds shout this activity ever be required due to a specific state of the game, but still makes a proper rogue run need to achieve that extra step of needing to earn their promotion. I'm thinking 12 hours would be suitable there, but even a 6 hour wait (going beyond a single pro) would be a much better solution than the current setup which has some major flaws.  

Sounds reasonable tbh.

Yeah. Absolutely not. Just sounds like nonsense.

Saying something is nonsense doesn't prove anything at all. If you feel that way, a single reason to back it up might be a good start. 

From a roleplay point of view it makes PERFECT sense, rather than nonsense. A person who has never been trusted by cosa nostra wouldn't have the same pull or authority as someone who had been sworn into a family. From a RP point of view it makes far more sense.

If you disagree with it from a game mechanics point of view, I'd also love to know why. The only hit here is that it makes a random rogue run a touch more difficult, which is easily worked around by gaining that promotion before jumping family. This was the way the game operated for years and has a very positive impact on the politics and relationships required to achieve goals in the game. 

It doesn't hinder it, it requires a little intelligence to make it effective. That's a huge positive for me, not a negative.

I don't know it's nonsense, I strongly suggest it's a fantastic idea. I don't need to or want to pretend anything. In the numerous years I've been here I've always championed and advocated anything that rewards (and requires) intelligent strategy and execution. This one only requires the slightest bit of social engineering, but it's certainly a step in the right direction. 

Again, I see the point you raised as a positive rather than a negative. Thanks for the support.

There's no one size fits all solution to every situation, so giving a cookie cutter response to someone having rank held back is all but impossible. In most cases it's something that can probably be resolved with a few quick chats. If it's genuine bloodlining, it's nothing that can be resolved (including by roguing) so the best solution would be to call a poor leader on their shit and bring it to the public on the streets.

People do get killed from bloodlining, rarely... but I can't think of a single case of someone being held on rank due to it. If you dislike a bloodline you don't want them around, you don't keep them around and then make them more salty in doing so. Bloodlining is a very common thing to be thrown around in accusations, but a rare thing to see in practise. It normally comes from bloodlines known for frequently fucking up in light of their most recent fuckup, if we're honest. If it were to be happening, I'm not sure how the ability to rogue and buy a HQ instantly would be considered a resolution to begin with.

What's the benefit? An attempt at a 1%? Far more commonly these people end up shooting innocent randomers far more in an attempt for shits and giggles than anything to do with resolving the issue. Again, I'm perfectly happy making that a little more awkward and making them put in the work if they want the +boost to kill randomers rather than the leader that's actually causing them the problems.

I totally agree it's up to CLs to bring the honour to the title. 100%. That said, the game mechanics should help facilitate them in doing so.

Yes it's hurting the gun boost, that's how mechanics normally work, but only up to the point they've invested the work required to earn that promotion. You've already pointed out how easy this can be, depending on leadership and their decision making, extremely easy so a relatively negligible impact when the game has poor leaders making poor decisions. If the leaders are a little more considered and require a little more work, they get a reward in doing so. They then get less rogues coming out with that additional boost, which is a positive thing for many so would reflect well on the leader. This all plays perfectly into the community and politics side of the game, so ideal to work with the existing mechanics.  

What's the impact in holding someone at WG for failure to meet requirements if they're simply dropping out with zero impact as a result? You seem to share frustrations with so many awarding the rank so easily, which is great, but then wish to give them an incentive to actually do so. I don't quite understand it, but you're welcome to your opinion.

I'm still confused, though. Other than saying it's nonsense, what's the negative here you disagree with?

Yes, it hurts the person in questions gun. They have their gun hurt because they weren't willing to put in the work required to earn (or the smarts to quickly gain, or the decision making to see a weak link in the chain to) that boost. That's a good thing for me, is that the bit you disagree with? That it hurts a gun? 

You're completely welcome to disagree with it. I've zero issue there. But I still can't for the life of me see what role play or game mechanic issue you actually disagree with. Perhaps try and avoid aiming the response at me and/or my position (this is OOC, you're chatting to Satanta here, not TsuDhoNimh with a rank or position in Chicago) and focus on the suggestion.

Personally, not really a fan of the suggestion. I generally frown upon people looking to leave my organisation because I didn't promote them and if they then buy a HQ to get around that, I don't fancy their life expectancy all that much.

Not entirely relevant here, but I think HQs should either:

• Be available at any rank if you have the money and level to purchase one - it is your reputation and standing that determine whether or not you can hold it after all
• Or not give any boosts - why would a building help you out?

Also;

You want to restore the honour of made man then start by bringing back other old habits like killing people for their cock ups; stop taking money when someone fucks up, kill them. Make their position and rank matter more than cash and credits.

 Is there much evidence of copious fuck ups being endured or is this just a sweeping statement?

I'll be honest, I haven't read more than the original suggestion but the reason for this was to make it possible for people to go rogue easier in a time when people were upset that made man wasn't handed out like M&M's. If they do go bold via this route they loose all rank experience and units past the requirements for made man so back to 25 units.