It baffles me, it truly does. How is it so hard for some people to realise they live within a hierarchical society? How is it that a few think they are somehow able to reach above their station or ignore how this thing of ours operates?

I have heard some things on street corners, mostly as whispers, but there is the odd outspoken person. They, for some reason, think they can say whatever they think to whoever they like in whatever manner they please. What is that about, I ask you?

Whether you like it or not, in this world you have betters. Those ranked and granted the power to wield that rank as they desire. Do you have to like it? No. Do you have to live with it even if you don't like it? Fuck yes you do! At least until you reach a point where you can actually do something about it, but that's a discussion for a different day and at that point, the power to wield would be in their hands and the results of their decisions theirs to live with.

It never ceases to amuse me when I hear things like, 'I have an equal voice', ' I am just as important'. No you fucking aren't and you are deluding yourselves if you think that is how you get ahead in this world. This isn't a democracy and we aren't fucking politicians. Hell, we're not nearly that corrupt. All it will earn you is a nice wooden overcoat and the scorn of many.

It is best, in my humble opinion, to KNOW YOUR PLACE. Do you have to truly respect? No, that shit is earned. But you better make it fucking convincing until you can do something about it. We can all pay lip service while we position and that is key!

Speak the right words, show the respect that uppers are due. It is futile trying to bring about a utopian society here, surely the intelligentsia amongst use realise this, so much so, that they don't float up the obits very often.

This is as progressive as the 1930's gets. You do as you are bid or you die.

This is rather interesting so thank you for bringing this up. I have some questions though if you don't mind.

It is often said on these streets that everyone should have the ability to say what they think. Granted in a manner that does not go out of the way to offend.  However, we all speak differently. Some have not learned English well or their straight forward nature may make it seem like they are being disrespectful and they may not know this. So should we jump down their throats immediately when they speak up? I mean we are on the streets, it is a place for public discussion and many different ideas or opinions get tossed around. Should we purposely be jumping on those who are not the best of speakers? Do we have something in place where people can learn to speak better?

Equality could be argued based on other things. While you degrade, mock or torment a lower rank, you must know that at some point there is a chance you need to ask those people to protect you later on. So there is an importance in roles regardless of where you are in the spectrum for different reasons.

False respect, would be very disrespectful in my opinion. If you feel you need to fake it then you are just wasting people's time. Everyone probably as a sixth sense when its fake and being fake means you can't really be trusted.

This isn't to say there isn't a hierarchy. However, the hierarchy has to recognize that each person plays a role in the cog. Real respect is earned and it should not be faked. This isn't to say that you should go off swearing at a leader or another member anywhere, this is just bad manners. You should be civil though. You should be able to hold a discussion without getting uppity on the ranks. Most of all you need to be able to be aware that not everyone is out to be rude. Some will be, sure. Just not everyone.

As Kathryn responds, she suddenly experiences a sensation of deja vu, as if she were walking a path that many others had walked before. But she had never spoken on this, so she forges on.

There's a difference between disagreeing with someone of a higher rank than you in the streets and disagreeing with an order someone in your family hierarchy gives you. If a Godfather says that 2+2=5 in the streets, everyone should be able to say that that Godfather is wrong. Now if that Godfather takes offense and shoots everyone who disagrees with him, he may have the right to do that... he'll just look like an idiot and most likely not live long.

Yes, sometimes people are disrespectful. Depending on the situation, sometimes they are punished. Sometimes they aren't. But disagreement isn't inherently disrespectful. Where's the line of disrespect? It moves, depending on the tone of the person, the content of what they said, and the patience/sensitivity of who they're talking about. And people who pay attention can usually take a good guess at where that line is. The daring tiptoe up to it. The cautious stay far behind it. But only the fools flagrantly strut passed it, and they are most likely killed or punished immediately.

I don't think that everyone has an equal voice, nor do I think everyone is just as important as everything else. But while our structure is not democratic, it is foolish to assume that the truth is the sole purview of those in power. If a Godfather puts forth Policy X and a random Earner thinks it's a horrible idea, that Earner could very well be correct. Rank doesn't determine who's right; it just determines who is higher ranked. So my opinion, which I believe is shared by many, is that the streets are the place where that Earner can step out and respectfully disagree. You would be correct in saying that the Godfather has no responsibility or obligation to answer any critiques... but if you can't defend what you say, why would you say it?

It is best, in my humble opinion, to KNOW YOUR PLACE

Does knowing your place mean being silent in the streets when anyone of a higher rank speaks? What a quiet, boring place this would be.

This is as progressive as the 1930's gets. You do as you are bid or you die.

When it comes to orders from your upper structure or the hierarchy? Damn right. When it comes to street discussions? I respectfully disagree- which I believe I could say at any rank, as long as I have my reasons. 

Caesar waits patiently until his boss is done speaking and then steps up to give his own two cents on the matter. "When it comes to this thing of ours, the easiest way to understand how it works is already laid out for us in the form of Medieval history. If ever, this organization is the closest thing to a modern recreation of feudalism. The associates are the serfs, working to earn in exchange for protection. The Made Man and Capos are the knights, fighting for their family, and are granted the right to sponsor some associates of their own in return. The hierarchy continues to progress in this format, with the Crew Leaders being the nobles, and the Godfathers, the monarchs."

He turns to face the rest of the audience before continuing. "In such a system, there is no room for equality and liberal ideas. Might is right, and everyone has their own place. Should they try to climb out of it, they damn well need to plan it all out, because otherwise, it's a guaranteed one-way ticket to Lucifer's realm. In fact, our system is actually more fair and has more mobility than the feudal system, for it allows the worthy to climb the ranks of the pyramid, and weeds out the unworthy."

He pauses and recalls some of the points that were made. "As far as speaking in the Streets is concerned, many do falter, either due to lack of knowledge, or lack of skill. In such cases however, they are rarely penalized for it immediately. I can attest to this from personal experience, as I have had plenty of guidance on how to improve my speaking skills due to the generosity of many benefactors whom I greatly respect." He then sighs as he recalls the death of yet another Crew Leader today. "However, one must not confuse the leniency displayed for Street speakers with those who take part in insubordination. Just like in a feudal system, those who try to grow out of their position too fast, and in the wrong way are swiftly silenced." 

Constantine ventured out of his shitheap to see what was quacking on the streets. As per usual, he found somewhere that caught his attention. More so amusement, cause in the end he'd most likely be amusing himself with his words and wit.

The topic being spoken was what jolted his energy to stay and linger, as he played about with a set of cards. When the respectful crowd died down he stepped forward and flicked a playing card toward the original speaker.

The card spun through the air and landed face up at the feet of SweetNothings. The ever discarded Joker.

"You cry respect for the sake of it, and that those in these brighter and bolder suits need to be respected by others. Why? Just for the sake of it. You speak of people needing to know their place, just because it's the way the system works."

Constantine flicked another playing card out into the bustling streets. It took a similar route, landing face up close to the other. The second Joker.

"Some that hold power don't know what the hell to do with it, and possibly shouldn't be there in the first place. Bloody Jokers. If someone's making a mockery of the very system you have your undieing love and devotion for, what then?"

"Should we all just shrivell our nuts and be yes sir no sirs? Like the very society we choose to operate outside of? Agreeing just to agree. Being docile just to please others, others who may not have earned that respect in the first place."

"If someone in a position is doing a shitty job at it, then some of us are gonna say something. If someone has stepped into the streets to speak openly and they speak nonesense then some are going to say something."

"Your world of bend over and appease those in power for the sak 

Constantine coughs then placed the deck back in his pocket. All this fuckn dust.

"..sake of it is wrong. If someone in power is showing themselves to be a fool, or a joker, then the public will speak."

Our time in this world has seen big swings in the messages about what can be said and by who out here - we have seen the dark ages where only the big boys spoke out here and that their word must be treated as gospel - in more recent times an active instruction that all and anyone can and should come and talk and challenge anyone regardless of rank. We now find ourselves somewhere undefined between the two.

I think really it comes down to common sense. Those in positions of responsibility, the Godfathers for example are more than capable of dealing with the most robust of discussions especially if those discussions involve choices or actions they have taken. This more comes down to - it's not what you say but how you say it - and that takes skill and sometimes a bit of guidance. I don't think it is a bad thing to hear words from people who are experiencing strong emotions for example, it shows they care - sometimes when we are emotional though the way we say things are more intense. Using judgement sometimes too to understand that street speak is just one method of communicating and considering if a telegram direct might yield a more helpful response can be helpful.

Come out shouting your mouth off and being rude and insulting at any rank is not going to go well for you. Come and shouting your mouth off with accusations and nothing to back them up with is not going to go down well either. Really if those who you claim should be spoken to nicely and with respect at all times cannot handle being occasionally challenged then what are they doing at that rank or position in the first place?

Not agreeing is really ok, feeling passionately that someone is wrong is really ok....calling someone a dick is really not ok....a common sense approach is really all that is needed.

Upon sensing a heated debate beginning to take place. Amen dashes out of the local pub and onto the streets. He looks at the many somber faces. Awaiting each to finish conversing before adding in his "two cents".  He gives Anteros a pat on the back. It is my understanding that respect should be given and mutually so. Respect should not be abused and taken granted of. Such is my philosophy as you never know who one day will be in a position of power. Even the most "seemingly" lowly vagrant or vagabond. Also respect can not and inherently should not be faked. At this, Amen sleeks into the shadows with Jarvis.

For my two penneth, I don't have a problem with anyone respectfully disagreeing with the things I say or even the way that I say them if they are feeling particularly delicate. I might not change either simply upon the basis of their saying so, but I certainly won't be churning up earth for them either. The key point though is doing it respectfully and whether previous speakers agree or not, anyone who is afforded a certain rank is inherently deserving of the respect associated with that rank.

So, even if you think this Don from Summerlin is as thick as two short planks, he's a Don and that means something. It obviously helps if the person is befitting of the status they've been afforded but that is a whole different problem and the status in a hierarchical society must be respected, else what meaning does any of it have?

A problem I have witnessed is that people are confusing us affording the freedom to individuals to express themselves respectfully with us all being on a level playing field where all of opinions carry the same weight regardless of our standing. That is not the situation we are in. 

Insane takes the usual late walk to the nearest newsstand to purchase the next edition of expert crossword puzzles. Voices can be heard. Curious, Insane heads in the direction of the voices. 

Respect.  Great topic. A topic that has hit these streets at the very least a zillion times. A topic that will never phase out, and I would not argue it should. As a matter of fact, this subject should never be put to rest. To define respect involves a deep admiration for one based on their qualities, and their abilities to achieve.

I am very impressed with Anteros thoughts. I have no knowledge of their lineage and part of the respect theme dictates to not ask. times have changed and we all have a roll in respect. I am a firm believer,respect is earned not a given.It is a two way street.  

Some interesting questions there Shantelle.

So should we jump down their throats immediately when they speak up? I mean we are on the streets, it is a place for public discussion and many different ideas or opinions get tossed around. Should we purposely be jumping on those who are not the best of speakers? Do we have something in place where people can learn to speak better?

I'm not sure I've ever seen someone attacked purely because of a lack of understanding of the language or even from mistakes leading from difficulty in speaking it. In most cases, it's relatively easy to discern the intent of the words regardless of the exact phraseology. Beyond all else, the intent is what really matters.

Sure you'll sometimes get a smart ass or two making a pedantic and belittling comment, but those window lickers would just as much throw negative comments if it was an intelligent reply they simply couldn't comprehend. Wouldn't waste much time on those.

If someone is genuinely seeking a meaningful discussion I have a lot of confidence they'd find it. I also believe that when someone goes out to stir shit it's pretty easy to spot and in those cases, they'll get exactly what they deserve.

False respect, would be very disrespectful in my opinion. If you feel you need to fake it then you are just wasting people's time. Everyone probably as a sixth sense when its fake and being fake means you can't really be trusted.

Everything you say is true to an extent, but it's also irrelevant. The fact is that if you don't respect a person, you still have to show the position or the rank the respect it deserves.

There's a huge difference between the two. People I respect I will give blood, sweat, and tears for. I will move heaven and earth for them and I will walk right into the gates of hell for. When I'm showing a rank respect, I'll do the bare minimum required of me by this code of ours. No more, no less. Some might consider that 'false respect', but I wouldn't. It's just two very different forms of respect that display themselves in very different ways.

I completely agree with much of what you said Kathryn, which also agrees with much of SweetNothings views, however I will take exception to one part.

When it comes to orders from your upper structure or the hierarchy? Damn right. When it comes to street discussions? I respectfully disagree- which I believe I could say at any rank, as long as I have my reasons. 

When it comes to street discussions, you'll still do exactly what you are bid.

You would hope that under an intelligent and thoughtful leader you would be instructed to discuss things, question things and to raise new thoughts or ideas even if they might disagree with those of someone higher ranked or higher positioned than yourself. You'd also very much hope that they would require those things to be done in a thoughtful and respectful manner. That said, whatever thoughts I might have on it if someone else has a leader that has different views they'd very much have to follow that lead rather than mine.

I'd very much hope all of our leaders would be on a relatively similar page there and it's a pretty moot point, but it's one worth raising all the same.

Now, JohnConstantine. You're the one that really piqued my interest here.

Your world of bend over and appease those in power for the sake of it is wrong. If someone in power is showing themselves to be a fool, or a joker, then the public will speak.

There is a huge, and I mean monumental, difference between not being disrespectful to someone and having to let everything pass by without question or retort. I love nothing more than a little witty banter when something is under discussion and I'm more than happy to give a frank and honest account while doing it. If something is bullshit, I'll call it. I'm very confident I'd never cross that line into disrespect, though. I was raised not to. Suggesting that having to conduct yourself in a manner that respects the hierarchy, respects family rules and respects cosa nostra traditions is nothing more than bending over to take what comes is a fallacy.

I 100% agree with your views on challenging poor ideas or misconceptions, yet I don't for a second feel that needs to breach any requirements for respect either for a rank or for a person. The two go hand in hand perfectly, it just needs the right execution to achieve it.

There is literally nothing that can't be addressed or challenged if it's come at from the right direction and with a little thought behind it. Sure, in those cases it can still lead to trouble if you're dealing with poor leadership and poor judgement... but in those cases they've simply made a martyr and the next of kin can rally a war cry that will hound them through the ages.

"Good points Spud. Respect should always be shown regardless, yet I feel this topic is more about just towing the line and not speaking out, and 'knowing your place' as it's put. If not, then I hold me hat against me heart and shuffle on." 

"But it very much seems the speaker wants rank to outweigh free speech, and you shouldn't speak out if your not of a worthy rank. And if you disagree with someone up the food chain, pretend you don't and just hold your tongue like a good little nancy."

"If not, and it's simply about how you put forward your disagreement then by all means respect is mandatory. Hell, even an asshole can agree there."

I do not think that possessing or not possessing an active voice in the streets is directly linked to the respect you must have when addressing others, because this is not absolutely about hierarchy. Yes, you may not agree with what someone believes is right, or even how this person is acting, but I believe that every person should be treated respectfully because how can I state what respect is gained if I do not know them? What you gain over time is the level you will be respected, or in worse cases, you lose credibility with others and in this way create conflicts (as has happened in many cases previously).

Regarding leadership positions when joining a family, you agree to act as your leader will determine and lead your members in this way out of respect, even if you may think he is wrong. You can not beat him up and try to impose what you believe you think is right. If you want to be heard; more actively demonstrate your value within your own family and on the streets mainly because the image of your family before the others is built not only by your leader but also by each member of it.

If you are new to this world of crime and expect, as many claim, to build your own name and be heard for what you believe, be careful and observe the image you present before uttering a word and think if this is how you wanted to be treated if you were in the place of the other. I've been noticing throughout these days that most beginners are more interested in earning status and quick cash, and not over interacting and offering the services due and expected of you when affiliating to a family.

In my short time in this country there have been a scary number of occasions where I've considered some of the exact same points SweetNothings has brought up, so much so that I have often had the urge to write a post on the same subject, ultimately I came to the conclusion that the people who do show a distinct lack of respect are highly unlikely to listen to my rants. Its almost as if they seem to forget the whole point of why we are all here in the first place, either that or they do not care enough to try anyway. 

This may just be me but when I first arrived here I hardly spoke to anyone out of a complete fear of saying the wrong thing and getting myself shot and I'm a fairly open and confident person. Even now, after learning the ropes and interacting with more and more people, I still double check most correspondence I send to try and make sure there's nothing in it that could be taken in a way that may end up with me being killed.

@TsuDhoNimh , 

When it comes to street discussions, you'll still do exactly what you are bid.

You would hope that under an intelligent and thoughtful leader you would be instructed to discuss things, question things and to raise new thoughts or ideas even if they might disagree with those of someone higher ranked or higher positioned than yourself. You'd also very much hope that they would require those things to be done in a thoughtful and respectful manner. That said, whatever thoughts I might have on it if someone else has a leader that has different views they'd very much have to follow that lead rather than mine.

Regarding street discussions, you're correct in saying that if the hierarchy says "Shut up about this immediately", that order should be followed. My point is that a direct order has everything to do with hierarchy, whereas a discussion in the streets ideally includes both a respect for hierarchy and respect for the truth.

I agree that the best leaders discuss, question, and seek counsel for their major decisions. My statement didn't preclude all those things things from happening. My point is that if your Godfather says something in the streets, it's possible to respectfully disagree with him. If you Godfather (after thoughtfully reflecting and seeking counsel, one would hope), says "Go here and do this" then you can't really end that conversation in a Bartleby-esque "I prefer not to".

In other words, in streets discussions there's an element of respectfully agreeing to disagree- ultimately, that doesn't exist with direct orders. You may be able to speak your mind to your boss, but at the end of the day, you're following that order- and if you don't, then that disagreement is far, far more extreme than a difference of opinion on the streets.

You're viewing it from the point of view of a rational, intelligent and competent leader Kathryn, which is fantastic. That's the type of view you yourself hold so why wouldn't you. I hope we see more sharing many of your views in the future. 

Sadly, this isn't always the case. Many leaders have put blocks on what their members can say or do in the streets that go well above and beyond what you and I would consider simply being respectful and courteous. It isn't a matter of taste, more one of tyranny and dictatorship. I don't condone those type of actions, but if that rule has been laid down for a family in this thing of ours... they best adhere to it or else know what the consequences will be if those rules are broken. 

As I said, I'd hope a good leader would strongly encourage that type of honest questioning, respectful disagreements and general discussion and debate. I'd also expect that our lands won't always have good leaders and that from time to time these virtues will be shunned rather than exalted. 

"Ok lets clear a few things up here. There seems to be some needless confusion on a very straight forward subject.

There is no attempt from the speaker to tell people to shut up. If approached respectfully, everyone can speak about whatever they like."

He looks around at the various participants and goes on.

"I'm not the first to point this out but I will reiterate what other sensible voices have offered, just so we're clear. There is a massive difference between showing respect and feeling it. Feeling respect is a private thing. That's your business, something you share with those you care about and trust. The streets don't care about that and they certainly are not the place for it. What the streets care about is what you show. 

Our society is old and deeply ordered. It is that order you are obeying when you show respect in public, even if you don't feel it. You may think FitzChivalry is a complete bastard. You may well be right. Unless you know him very well, you'd be beyond foolish to broadcast that feeling in public. So, you show him respect, even if you don't feel it, because our society is structured that way. It is the way we behave, the way we do business and an important part of what has enabled this thing of ours to thrive and survive for so many generations.

Also,

It's been said and it remains true. If you chose your words carefully, you can say almost anything you like out here. You can question anyone's view without fear of reprisal. Even the Godfathers. You must also accept that if you challenge something someone in power says, they too have the right to fight their own corner and argue back. But don't mistake a lively rebuttal in a debate for an attack or an order for silence. Far from it, its just a discussion. If someone in power wants to attack or silence you, you'll know!"

Disorder hits the proverbial nail on it's delicate metal head, but I'll be damned if that FitzChivalry guy isn't an utter and complete bastard indeed.

With humble respect, DB tips his hat into the conversation.

It can be as simple or as complicated as one wish's to make it. In my opinion, respect comes from the end of a loaded Tommy Gun. You can give it, earn it, or try to take it. The question is, who is alive at the end of the day to enjoy it?

Mark Dantonio, "Pride comes before the fall."

If your to proud to give some respect to the big guns, then it may be a good idea to prepare for a fall. Respectfully not aimed towards anyone, just my general opinion and attitude on how to survive on the streets.

BlackJack contently listens in to the conversation as he comes from a long bloodline in these parts. He takes time to contemplate his thoughts before speaking:

"I will borrow several thoughts from this conversation. As far as I see it there should be a level of respect. But that does not mean not questioning why we do things. I think as a CL if you take the time to listen to what others think and have The respect for others to stay open, you can learn a lot. Further, as a CL it is also your role to each you members respect. Far too often members from crews abuse other CLs. Some CLs take offence immediately while others assist the CL of the crew member to teach them a valuable lesson."