Clearer? Yes.

I was under the impression that you were calling my Boss, and the heirarchy above her, dishonourable. That I had alot to say about. But now seeing your finalized point, I would have to say I disagree with you. I'm not going to stand here and sound like a broken record player, but I'll give you one word for my opposition in your arugment, practicality - Gwarble has hit the nail on the head with that one.

I can't say that I totally disagree with you Chris, but I do see both sides.  Your point is obvious.  In your eye, it is dishonorable as a gangster to take a demotion, even if you're reqested to do so, solely for the purpose of purchasing cheap bodyguards. And, I have to say that I do agree with you on that and I would not take one for that purpose. 

However,  we are mobsters, and we pride ourselves in taking advantage of loopholes in the system.  That much is evident with the Prohibition.  Opportunitity knocks, and as mobsters, we cannot help but take it. We do alot of things that are questionable in this Thing of Ours.  This is just another loophole being knitted into opportunity for us criminals.

When one puts their needs in front of those of their family, it's definitely not an honorable thing. If your boss comes to you and says 'Hey, I want to get you some protection but you'll have to take a demotion and possibly hide out for a bit.' it's one thing, and something that is entirely up to the Crewleader as they're making the conscious decision to buy that member bodyguards. However, if you directly go to your boss and say 'Hey, I need to be demoted because I want to buy xxx bodyguards for myself' knowing full well that their own boss needs it more than the member is frankly disgusting. You can buy all the bodyguards in the world, but if your boss dies more than likely you won't be lasting too much longer once your plethora of guards has been depleted.

What happened to the times where a mobster would never think about asking their leader for something for their own personal gain? What happened to the times where people like this actually worked hard for their leaders and sent tributes up regularly. People sitting on 'Rich' or 'extremely rich' statuses and still saying 'i'm broke, I can't tribute anything', all the while saving up for their own personal gain. People who think like that need to get over themselves and realize with that attitude it will most likely get them nowhere.

CN, after considering the barbed-wire pleasure prospect, CrazyNine decided to pick the pockets of the lowest target around. Yes, he's a bully like that. After all, why not? Not like World War 45 (On Pay Per View only) will break out within the hour. He'll be able to get his shot ready in time if there's any loud mouth that needs to be shutting up forever.

Suddenly CN hears some obnoxious little man saying something about him refusing to participate in an OC. CN found this funny, the only possible conclusion was that the little man's feelings were very hurt by the Godfather not accepting the invitation. If he only knew how many OC invitations the Godfather receives, he would understand that he can only accept the invitations of people he is confident will help him lead a successful OC, while disregarding the invitations of people that don't even give him a heads up and probably don't have the skill to pull off a good OC.

Unfortunately, that meant that he stayed too long around so he ended up hearing a rant about bodyguards. He looks to his trusted associated from the great city of PH that was standing next to him and shared his opinion of the matter to him.

This man obviously has no clue about the kind of protection you get for your money. Everybody that is worth their salt knows that the more expensive the BG, the more protection you get from them. Proof of that is the increased difficulty to kill a Don's BG that it is to kill a Thug´s BG.

The obvious smartest thing to do, is to strip yourself of your rank and reputation, sort of "start over" and get the kind of BGs that only a Thug can afford. That way, you grow back into your rank WHILE you train your BGs to protect you in a more efficient manner. That way, after a few months when you reach Don again, you are protected by an army of BGs that are so grateful that you gave them a chance when they had no clue how to protect anybody important and you trained them into the great powerful BGs that any Don has.

How do I know it's the smartest thing you ask? Just look around and see how many people have done it. A few lucky people were bought an army of BGs at birth, but so many important people in our line of work have done it, most of them from the most powerful cities, that you can only conclude that it is well worth the trouble of ranking back up to get so much more protection than you would have otherwise been able to afford.

Like my good friend AfroSamurai said, a demotion is only a punishment if it's used as a punishment. If somebody WISHES to be of a lower rank for whatever reason, then a demotion is not a punishment. Again, brilliantly put, a *punished* member would not be allowed to buy himself cheap protection.

Evangeline, I always secretly loved you. Today you gave me a reason to express it publicly.

I personally disagree with being purposely demoted in order to fool the poor bodyguards and to hire them for less.  Though I disagree with it, I do not think that it is a simple matter of right and wrong.  It is an ethical issue with a relative answer.

On the one hand, as Chris emphasizes, no gangster in his right mind would WANT to be demoted.  It's true.  In reality, demotion is quite cold.  It's actually a pretty harsh punishment.  But the existence of the possibility to demote came with a loophole which has been discovered and taken advantage of my some of the more clever members of our community.

That being said, it is a reality in this world, and one that I think we will have to deal with.  Though I, among others, may not agree with the methods with which these bodyguards are attained, they have attained them, nonetheless.  I know many who have used this exact technique to aid themselves, and I do not hold it against them in the least.  I do things differently, but that could be said about just about anything.  At least they then have to do an equal ammount of work to reach the rank that they previously held.

As a few people have done, I tend to agree that the practice itself doesn't quite sit right, but I'd say that's a flaw in the systems we use within cosa nostra. As long as the means is there, and people are using it, the disadvantage you put yourself at by not using it once in a while is far too great to be worried about being honourable with it.

Stealing MIAs, yes. Demotion for BGs, no.

So let the Rock see if he has this straight then. The general concensus is, whilst it may be sleazy, everone does it and therefore you should too just to keep up with the Jones's? If that is the case, then what should be done to help curtail it for future generations?

Yep.

As for future generations, I'd say that the practice has always happened and always will, until the aforementioned systems we use no longer allow it. I'm sure this has been discussed in the past, but you might be better heading down Suggestions Avenue - that's a new one - and discussing it there.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense for Thugs, Gangsters and Goombas to have any BGs at all, but this isn't an issue that will ever be resolved directly by mafioso, we might need city hall input. That being said, I'm sure others would argue that privileged low rankers (ie, those directly descended from power) should have access. There might be a better balance in there somewhere, but thrashing that out under the veil of the streets is pretty tricky.

"the People's Champion".....???

Snip chuckles

"I believe you are poorly misinformed there"

"As for demotion for bodyguards I agree 100% with Hoopi here. As he said the means are there to use and you put yourself at the disadvantage for not using it to try and act "honourable" Snip chuckles again

"Anyway I don't think city hall would change this. Right now people are making lots of money and there is only a few options you have to spend it on. Bodyguards would be one of them. If it was not possible to demote and hire bodyguards at a cheaper price then certain people would be accumulating larger amounts of money and not knowing what to do with it since they can't demote people to give them bodyguards to make their city stronger. Unless a new avenue arose for us to spend our money on then city hall should not be considering changing the current system of demotion and bodyguard buying"

Sylvestro chuckles

Forgive my consternation and amusement Mr. Snip. But please elaborate on how it is that if people cannot get demoted and buy guards cheaper it would make them accumulate more money and not know what to do with it? It seems to me that they would actually spend more paying the REAL price for the bodyguards at the rank they really achieved. As a matter of course the whole practice helps increase the overall amount of money available which in turn appears to be creating a need for more money-sinks.

I would like the leaders of these fine cities to consider why and how any but the most powerful of families would be able to risk demoting a valuable earner and possible hitter safely. In effect a lot of people are comfortable enough to have their "best" go through two lifetimes knowing full well their money and gun won't be needed.

It's ok Sylvestro I forgive you. If you were listening closely which obviously you weren't I said "certain people". We saw a stage where cities were demoting and buying people body guards a lot more then usual. If demoting did not decrease the price of bodyguards then the practice would stop or not be as abundant as it is now. People like Godfather Deimne or CrazyNine mostly likely at a stage where they rather increase the defence of people below them then increase their own which is already at a extremely high level. I am not a fan of giving thugs and gangster large amounts of bodyguards but it can be done so why not use it, Unless city hall brought in another way for us to spend money I would recommand they don't change this anyway.

Well Snip, The Rock most certainly is the People's Champion, and if you don't believe that then the simple answer is that you... are not one of the People! I have to agree with Sylvestro though, surely the additional cost would not see any change in the the amount of money being spent. If Godfather Deimne wanted to beef up the defenses of his most trusted, he would still do it, though now instead of buying Tyrion the Thug 100 BGs, he'd buy Tyrion the Made Man 25, or Tyrion the Boss 10. I refuse to believe that any Godfather would just hoard money and not know what to spend it on? Are you implying that our Godfathers are just brainless dolts who are led more like sheep rather than leading like lions?

I believe your opinion of our Godfathers, you opinion of our best and brightest, like your opinion of the Rock is flawed jabroni.

Sam grins wide. I did listen very closely Mr. Snip, I usually do. Thus my chuckling and confusion at your words. I knew full well who certain people were, which is in fact, why I didn't inquire as to who they were. I did ask you to elaborate on what logic you were following to conclude that a lack of cheaper bodygaurds would somehow result in a glut of money in certain pockets. Your logic seems to be that if a Godfather could not buy cheap bodyguards for his city, he would instead hoard the money to make sure his inheritance is as large as possible?

Mr Stone-type-rock-thing, I'm pretty sure that it creates a dilemma in a Mafioso's mind when an opportunity to be demoted to a lower rank to hire bodyguards presents itself. On the one hand, it is fairly unethical and seems to be abusing a loophole in the system which is your argument as to why it shouldn't happen. However, the flip side of that coin is that it makes excellent business sense to take a demotion and hire BGs at a cheaper rate and it is a fantastic investment in the long term. A demotion from the rank of Boss would cut into that persons earnings briefly, but if they work hard to regain their rank then they could technically be Boss again within 17 days. I believe that the deciding factor on this is that city hall allow it to happen and, despite adding in extra costs to add to the con list of carrying out this practice, it will continue to happen until the cons outweigh the pro's because as it stands it is commonplace due to the fact that the positives outweigh the negatives.