Sylvestro unleans himself from the lamp post and walks up to stand on the curb, which is enough to see him clearly.

I want to talk about the appeals to ignorance we have seen lately, or you could say the arguments from ignorance and responses to them. Basically what that means is that you come out here and say something like "It used to mean something to be made, now you can find a button in a cracker jack box or boy was that don a twat", or you could just assume your version of past events was accepted at face value and then argue from there. In all those cases you are appealing for those of us around you to make decisions, judgements, and coherent arguments based on ignorant assumptions. What is amazing me in particular, is that in each of these cases, the speakers have either failed to prove the argument with solid observations and facts, or outright refused to even try in some vain attempt to avoid offense. Yet, in the best cases, the attempts to discredit these unknown button men do nothing other than put into question the speakers own achievements. While in the worst case they can be viewed as a direct insult the the man or woman authorizing the unknown buttons. I fail to understand how you can live through such speeches to talk another day. Someone actually threw out a little snippet about Godfathers. While it might seem to some that anyone who "takes offense" at this or just stays quiet about it might think it is "true", the reality is that it is incumbent upon a man who says "Rank used to mean something and I wont even go into Godfathers" to stand up and point out what he meant about who. The same goes for the idea that someone has a button who doesn't deserve it. Who do you mean, without that information your argument asks me to accept a premise from ignorance. The same goes for trashing the actions of a Don, his reputation, and the person who authed him. You either expect me to believe you have meta knowledge on the subject (inside information) or that there is a enough publicly available investigative results around that support the claims being made. The same can be said for member whoring. Who exactly is doing it, when, and what evidence supports it. My own eyes see some with more associates than others but to infer conclusions based on that simple observation requires leaps of faith that have no business in this thing of ours.

I could go on, but I wonder what everyone else thinks of my observation. That is, we are seeing these appeals to ignorance in an attempt to to establish a reputation for superior Omertaness and Mobsterability through the degradation of others. I find that they are ill conceived, insulting, and probably not deserving of the replies they receive, while at the same time establishing a reputation exactly opposite the intention.

Anyone care to comment?

Sam goes back to leaning agianst the lamp post.

Dom hears her old friend speaking while walking towards her favorite coffee shops, and stops to listen, nodding in agreement. She pats Sam on the shoulder on her way past the lamp post he's leaning against and smiles.

My friend....actions speak louder than words.  It is ignorant to think you can change things by coming out to the streets and whining about the past.  Even more ignorant to come out to the streets and call out Don's & Godfather's for their actions when your own rank is well below the level it takes to even make a standing arguement.  My two cents? Work to change it if you don't like it.  Stop whining about it.  It's really getting old, and frankly, won't recieve a response from this Monkey unless it affects me or mine directly.

As far as your observations?  Well Sam my dear, I'd never be one to try and put it past YOU.  Dom digs into her purse and pulls out a Sam's Silver Dollar and winks.   I only make mistakes once.

As i believe this is directed at me, maybe as well as others, i will give a little response but will not go into too much detail.

Basically, you are asking for evidence to support why i am questioning the deservedness of a button man or any rank above? Well, it's simple really, i can not do that. What am i supposed to do, come out here and say 'this guy doesn't deserve to be a Made Man, he has done nothing!' Not a very wise move really...

If i could provide evidence without fear of getting killed then i would but that simply would not happen. Don't forget as i have stated before, we do not see what happens behind closed doors, the person in particular could be doing a very important job, but we do not know that. We go off hat we see in the streets because basically, that's all we can do. I implied that SOME people maybe do not deserve or maybe have not earned the right to be a button man. There are only very few who disagree with that assumption.

As for member whoring, i think it is a despicable act and any decent leader would not tolerate it in their family. But it does happen, always has ans sadly always will, especially when it has been allowed to go on. One can only hope that people have the integrity to avoid taking part.

So, as for evidence, if i could i would. If anyone could, they probably would. I think what you are asking it probably impossible without severe conseauences.

Galactus was walking the mafioso streets on his way to 42 & Shots and hears Mr.Corallo speaking.

I agree with you my friend,you can ask around about my replies and comments to these recent speeches,debates and discussions these mobsters have given in the streets.

My point is,things arent obligated to change just because certain people envy how leaders control and take care of their familes and crews.Concerning the past and the present,this mafioso wouldnt be as strong if we still went according to the past being that in this day and time it requires more dedication and hard work,so basically to my understanding "those mobsters have wasted their time and my time with their non-valuable and non-ritual confrontations."

Galactus then shakes Mr.Corallo hand,and continues his journey to 42 & Shots.

Sam smiles as Dom winks at him. Lets face it my friend, until today it was at no one's expense, but your point is well made. I think the difference was my presentation and the way not a soul could ever even guess as to who recieved that rare coin.

Sam turns to Cruel. Sure it was directed at a few of you, all the evidence supports that conclusion. But my whole point was that you brought the argument out and some of use saw it for what it was, others tried to show you the error of your ways and still others agreed with you in some area's. Even your latest reply about the whoring, who man? You're made, speak your mind, or don't but dont just expect me to go along with "Yep, we got us some whore's round here." What happened to all that honor being talked about? I dont want to come across hostile, but these are the streets, everyone has to hold their own.

Carollo shakes the proferred hand. I don't know you well sir, but you talk the talk. Well said.

Galactus then turns around to confront Cruel.

Dont mean any disrespect,but who are you to say that any made man or above dont need a button? Are you controlling the family? Do you know their experience? Are you keeping track of what they do? Theres a saying "Dont judge a book by its cover." Just because you dont see YOUR met expectations in whoever your talking about,doesnt mean that their leaders dont and that they've earned their button.

Galactus then continues his walk to 42 and Shots.

Galactus - Slightly confused as to what you actually just said but i think i got the point. If you look back i do say nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors etc etc... In times before it was easier to as you would say 'judge a book by its cover' because you could see them out and about, making appearances and doing things and you would know of almost everyone maade and above. I am saying in general, now it seems there are more and more who are really unknown, unproven to people outside of their family. I think you took what i said the wrong way my friend ;)

Sylvestro - whoring always has and always will go on, as i said any decent leader would control it. I, perosanlly cannot say i have been whored (although SpaceMountain did offer sexual favours) but my bloodline has before, and so has many others as has aleady been pointed out. To believe it doesn't happen because you personally haven't seen it, well, that's ignorance ;)

Cruel tips his hat to the two gentlemen and smiles

Sam smiles as the rabbit hole gets ever deeper. I am basing my argument off the lack of evidence I see for yours, but I never argued whoring one way or the other, I argued my and everyone Else's ability to judge it. So while it might be said that I see no whoring, it would be hard to say I said it didn't exist. I am just ignorant of the facts so I don't go around speaking about it. But you have clarified the situation somewhat. We know now you base your argument for member whoring off of meta knowledge. You have knowledge of the event, and perhaps you have inside knowledge from other people. Now we are getting somewhere. I prefer evidence to support your claim because what you now offer is a case of You know it has happened, and since you know it has happened, it must be happening now and by these people. That is called auto-epistemic reasoning, or self knowing. You know about this or that so this or that must be true. It is still incumbent upon you if you are going to come out here and say it, to prove it. Otherwise why say it? The only reason is the one I pointed out. Now you could correct it all by just supporting you argument with your experience, tell us my man, who whore'd?. As for safety, whoever said these streets were safe.

Its hot like hell in the mafioso streets and Galactus forgot his mug of water at Mr.Carallo's confrontation,he makes it back in time just to hear what Cruel has to say.

That was a very well said statement that you made my friend,im impressed;)

For the most part we are uneducated thugs, Sylvestro.  We didn't all go to Devry, so you might cut us some slack on your expectations for argument.

..Are you guys seriously this excited about what Cruel said?

Member whoring is generally obvious because you see fresh off the boat civilians enlisted into crews with very little paper trail of messages sent one way or another.  But it is also totally legal currently, so who gives a flying fuck?  And I haven't exactly been writing down any names, so don't bother asking.

Nearly one half of our community is now sporting a button.  That inherently devalues the accomplishment.  If everyone of these made men are deserving of their honor, then perhaps we need to raise standards in order to differentiate the top levels of our community.  Is this really so controversial, or are you just looking to start a pointless fight?

Galactus then scratches his chin and rubs his face.

Sureshot,im not here to fight or cause no type of conflict and problems.I just wanted a clear understanding of what Cruel meant on his topic of "made men not deserving their buttons because of their appearance,activity,etc." Even though I strongly disagree,I now understand the point he was trying to make.

Pointless? You missed it for sure. I find you a commendable mobster sureshot and deserving of respect not only for how you carry yourself but for who you serve, and I wish you hadn't put me in such a position. You made the point and so did I, hell even cruel did. I guess for once I will put MY money where MY mouth is and state the obvious. In my view if you want to cull the weak, start with the guys insulting the leadership by innuendo and with these appeals to ignorance. Even your own statement, uttered by any man not in the most powerful of families would be desrving of a swim in my opinion. It just insults a large swath of honorable men and women and the people who decided to make them.

Galactus shakes his head in agreement with Mr.Carallo.

Very well stated my friend:)

What deserves me a swim?  The fact that I find  <a href="http://mafiareturns.com/war/wackstats.php" title="these numbers">these numbers</a> to be a bit top-heavy?  Remember that we gauge ourselves in relation to one another.  If half of our community is Made or above then we are forced to resort to other, less official metrics for differentiating ourselves.

I'm not in any position to judge the capabilities or work ethic of other men in other families, period.  I'm only voicing my concern for the cupcakey direction things are going.  In my view, a button should be worn by a select few, not a select many.  If this sounds elitist, that is because this is the mafia.  If this is not the mafia that you envision, then I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree.  We're on good terms with one another and I know were capable of discussing our community without anyone threatening a swim.

And Galactus, do you disagree that a street presence should be factored in to one becoming Made?  You've clearly been working to make a name for yourself in the streets and I'd hope that your efforts don't go unnoticed.

Galactus nodding his head while Sureshot is talking awaiting his turn to speak.

Good question,Yes,I think a street presense should be made in the streets from a elected Made Man.Regardless of what all this confusuion might be about,MM are obligated to be noticed.Reason being is because once you become MM you are now the soldier,recruiter,sponsor and most of all backbone of your family.

Sureshot,you indeed asked a good question,but I dont feel as if they should be present 24/7 like my fellow mobsters are making it sound.

I certainly didn't intend to threaten a swim, nor would I desire it, its your rank and your family that assures that. I do believe that those types of generalizations should be avioded and should be very dangerous for people not in a position such as yours. It's not that I don't see your point, I do, but I think we miss the meat of the thing if we don't see these situations as opportunities to "play" if you will.

I forgot to adress the question of my expectations for an argument and why was I so excited about it all. Whenever someone comes to the streets and begins a debate they have many options as to how to say things. I think that many people would hear what Cruel said and think that there was something just a bit off about the argument, but not quite able to articulate it. They then go in and try to straighten things out thus lending credibility to the appeal to ignorance. Then many times the original speaker will switch to the self knowing argument. We get plenty of innuendo but few if any facts. So I was not just sporting for a fight, I was pointing out that many times the original premise is a false start and engaging those types of speakers can empower them and weaken the rest of us.

McCall stiffles a chuckle at the participants arguing the toss, and steps out of the shadows to throw his 2 cents into the arena.

Member Whoring evidence comes down to mails sent and recieved does it? So I was whored by Don Tyrion was I? I sent a good family friend a quick letter saying who I was, and that if he still had some respect for my lineage would he be so kind as to offer me the chance to prove my worth. He replied and stated that it was wonderful to see my bloodline here and that off course he would be only to happy to offer me a position within his organization. Badda bing badda boom, 1 Sponsored individual, mail count 1, paper trail virtually non existant.

Now I know for a fact that the vast majority of us here are at least 4th Generation mobsters, that mens you can go back 4 generations at least, you have a father, a Grandfather and two Great grandfathers. My Father joined the same family as his Father, this time with no paper trail as it was all organized over a cup of coffee. Now if I can do this, and my father can do this, how many others do you think do this also? how many of you serve the same Don, godfather or City that your father or Grandfather served, or serve a Don who personally knows your bloodline? That isn't whoring, that is good business sense. Whoring is sitting at the docks waiting for fresh meat to come in from the old country and hoovering them up before they even clear immigration. Does whoring happen? I'm sure it does, whilst some will look upon it with distaste, it is not illegal anymore. Times have changed and as has been pointed out elsewhere the antiwhoring legislation was repealed because it didn't fit in with how city hall wanted things to run.

As for button men all being worthless or at least their achievement being worthless, what complete and utter horse shit... pardon my french. My 'blood' has been spilled on these streets for a lot longer than most of you, not all of you, but most of you. I'm not saying that makes me wiser or smarter than you, just gives me a bigger frame of reference to compare your wild accusations to. Always, and I do mean always, there have been two types of leader. From the dawn of existance we have the buddy leader who wants to be your friend/lover and promotes just so you are happy and run around like a dog with a hard-on all day. Then we have the decent upstanding moral Leaders who instist that their members prove their worth. Generally the second type of leader will take out the first, because they will get fed up with the abuse and ineptitude of the first types members. This has always happened, is sill happening and will continue to happen. Being a shit leader means you will die. Are there more of the first kind of leader compared to 2, 5 or 8 years ago? Computer says no. Unless you can offer me good, hard evidence to the contrary and not vague rambling accusations. Are their more Button men on the streets now than in the past? Again there are not. My great, great, great times a thousand grandfather who first came to these shores from the old country joined a family called La frat. Some of you may know them, some of you may not. When he joined, according to the records he kept they had 112 members living in new orleans. of that 112, 78 where of rank Made man and above. Hey what do you know, over 50% where button men, so I guess that means that Dean Martin just handed out Buttons like candy from a paedophile. Well that isn't right. Ask any of the bloodlines still here who had the pleasure or displeasure depending on their point of view of serving in a La frat crew and they will tell you they had to work damn hard for everything they got. You constantly had to prove your worth in everything you did. you had to have a voice in the streets, in the businesses and in the HQ. you had to show respect, and train your gun. you had to donate to the Don on a regular basis... I say Don because this was in the days before godfathers.

There is only one reason why there is an apparent increase in the number of button men today, and that's the increase in the survival rate. Like it or loath it, there is less death on our streets. Less war, less punishment shootings, less stealth wacks, less asassinations and less covert takedowns. It's only natural that as a result of increased age the numbers getting Made increase. Gone are the days when you joined a crew at gangster, and by the time you hit wise guy your Don was gunned down and you where fighting for your life.

One final point in my rant, as I have work to do and I work for Don Tyrion and not the New York board of Education. Respect. If you are going to come out and level general accusations then you should die. You have two choices here. the first, you stand up, grab your balls in you hand and you say So and So is a complete cafone and this is the reason why and here is my evidence. Sure yo might die for disrespect, but now everyone will have seen your evidence and will know that so and so is an asshole, and he knows it too, and that's why he shot you. Alternatively, you can crawl out into the streets on your belly like the worm that you are and you can sling general accusations, indicting no one and accusing all of being a waste of space. Godfathers need to man up? Most Made men don't deserve their buttons? What the fuck. On behalf of Godfather Deimne, and Don Tyrion and myself, I personally take offense at the wild and baseless accusations and the slanderous comments you have made against no one in particular but levelled at everyone equally. For surely if in your tiny mind it is going on everwhere, then you are insinuating that we are all guilty. In my mind your general accusations are far more disrespectful and far more dishonourable than manning up and saying here is the proof, now do something about it.

Alf is walking around the streets with his hands in his pockets.He is very bored and was lookin for something to do.Around the corner he hears all he the comotion,he peeks around from the lampost.

"I would like to put my humble oppinion to you all fine men.The easiest way i could sum this up for you is, we are the products of our own environment.I too have see the times change some to my own advantage and some that i dissagree with."We only have our selfs to blame for letting things slip,as its now obvious that its got to a point were we as a communitynotice the differences between "days of old". I agree with cruel, for eg being a hitter was something of prestige,one of respect,now its far to easy for gangster's to be a hitter".

"Now its envetable,times change we can move with it and embrace it,or we can stop what we can all see, which is in my oppinion a failing on our own part and force all the respect back into the community and make it more cut throat,lets grab the community by the balls and take back some controll."

However we need to stop looking from days of old and take some controll of the now!, and i do belive that has to come form the higher mobsters of this world.

With that alf takes in a breath and hides back behind the lampost.

For me personally, Made man is a big honour, i have in the past declined my button as i feel i haven't earned it. For me it always was, and still is a sign of respect and honour.

Respect and honour to me, are very important, in fact they're vital. I always try my utmost best to be as respectful as i can and i expect it back. However, there are certain circumstances in which i do not expect respect. If i talk to a made man whilst, I myself am still an associate. I do not expect the same level of respect if i were talking to a Goomba. If i talk to them pleasantly, all due respect and a nice manner, chances are they'll return it. If not maybe their just an arsehole. But their crewleader has seen it fit for them to be awarded with what is now, not so much an honoured rank. But they have been accepted into the 'inner circle' at the very least. It would not then be my place to come out here moaning about so and so. "Or he said this - She did that." At the end of the day they're mademen. Men and Women of honour and great respect. It is not our place as Mobsters to challenge other crewleaders. Unless, you yourself are a crewleader.

Furthermore, the topic of Godfathers. Many say Godfather is, these days, awarded far to easily. I disagree in all honesty. The Godfather of their city has seen it fit to gift them a city of their own. They are obviously, talented, hard working, leaders, Whom have proved themselves.

Hypothetically, lets say 8 months from now, i'm working hard still here in LA. I've been through wars, survived. Brought good money in for the family. Showed my abilities and talents and i've been selected to lead a family in Los Angeles. When i hit the eight month mark we go to war with City X and win. Godfather Spacemountain then needs a new godfather to fill that city? Remember this is all Hypothetical. He selects me to take up the reigns. Now this is an honour and i jump at the chance but someone from City Y is criticising my abilities and my potential to be a Godfather.. Does it matter? No. Do i give a flying fuck? No. If a Godfather sees it fit to promote someone to lead a city it doesn't matter what people from the other cities think. As long as the people you work for are happy? Preciselym, it doesn't. So with all due respect i don't see why people are out here bickering. (If this seems like a dig at anyone, it is not. I do not wish to argue, just simply to make my point.)

Yet another interesting topic that I found while walking the streets.  For that I say thank you Sylvestro.  At the very least, you've given me something to think about. 

Because you reference member whoring and there have been many responses about that issue - I wanted clarification.  Are you attempting to argue that member whoring isn't a problem, or hasn't been a problem in the recent past?  I just wanted to understand whether you had a point on that issue or were just using it as an example.  I ask because it seems as though  you are saying that you've seen member whoring with your own eyes yet don't believe it to be a problem.  Some sponsors may do it and others don't.  Is that right? 

If you're asking about evidence for member whoring - I would say there is plenty of evidence if only you take the time to look for it.  And that evidence would include a Godfather (or Godfathers) outlawing the practice some months ago.  That to me is recent enough to be considered a "current" problem that many people have experienced and participated in.

Just a point of clarification if you will.  And thank you in advance.

Oh, and one more thing...you have my permission to use my name as one of those people that believes that it's too easy to become made man in some crews, and that there are some Dons that require more education.  And I provide this information based on meta knowledge (inside information) and personal knowledge (knowledge that i have learned through my own observations) and desire to leave names out because of self-preservation (a desire to keep living).