A couple of black 1931 V8 Cadillac's pull up in the streets all noise and thunder, five burly men step out of the rear Caddy and make their way over to the front one all armed to the teeth with some heavy guns, the drivers door of the first car open's and out steps Marco_Kray. Now Marco always insisted on driving himself as he felt he was the best man for the job, why get a bum to drive you who cant drive for shit?. Stepping out of the vehicle Marco lights a cigarette and takes a look around, "Not too many people around but should be enough to listen to what i got to say" he thought to himself, Stepping up onto a crate he clears his throat and prepares himself for what he has to say:

"Planting a spy in another family is this a good or bad thing i ask? now im not going to mention names as the evidence is somewhat circumstantial to say the least, but its got me thinking and as such i fell the need to ask questions, 1. is a Godfather or CL wise to make such a move? i can see the plus points from a leader doing such thing but on the other hand there is the trust bestowed upon each person in each family thats at stake, could you trust someone thinking they may be a mole?. No i thought not, its been happening right under our noses. Do people feel so insecure that they have to find out whats going on next door, or shall we just move on and run things our own way no matter what in our own style rightly or wrongly?. Rats have no place in our world and if i find one before they run mark my words i'll shoot him where he stands, a good day to you all"

Marco stubs out his cigarette and makes his way back over to his car and speeds off.

To consider your first point, I seriously doubt anyone - with a half minded political mind, anyway, would dirty his own hands with an act that would easily be a casus belli for war. If they want to pursue those kind of activities, you'd have someone hired to do the dirty work so that in the event of a backfire, it can be written off as a rogue operation.

As to whether it's worth it or not, that's up to the individual. It's always nice to have information about your business competitors - and I doubt anyone here would deny that they would find a no-leak mole immensely valuable. On the other hand, not being informed of much can lead many people - or cities, for that matter, down a road of suspicion and paranoia.


It's a means to an end, I suppose.

If you are undercover living and working for another family but are secretly a spy then either way, you will die. If the family that has sent you on a spying mission decides to war the family you reside in, questions will be asked as to why you have lived and joined up with 'your' family. It will raise eyebrows and i am sure the other cities will not tolerate it. How could they? If 'your' family is spying on other cities, whats to say they do not have someone like you in every city, in their own hq maybe?

I am not saying that this act is right or wrong but if any person decided to take this task on then in my eyes, they are fools. Of course it is always a bonus to know as much about your opposition as possible, but sending spys in is pretty shitty.

In the end, i just don't think it would work, nor would it be worth it.

I sorta agree with cruel, Spy's are rats and rats are not tolerrated in any city a crime that is worth death and is a really stupid act by and" Higher Ups" in any city. When yu first join a family there are rules that you have to sign and I am sure "Rats" are at the first things you don't do.

marco,very interesting, firstly did you say that it has been happining? if so are there precaution's in place for this supposed "rat" to be taken care? if you know this to be true then im pretty sure its in the best interest of the rest of the crew leaders to be informed if you know this  to be true.

secondly,lets put it into perspective. We the mafia rats exsist, its a form warfare. It can be a very effective way of getting the upper hand on your enemy and if its done correctly it works. So im not sure it's insecurity as such,i think it can be something that would be beutifully exicuted and very clever.

now realisticly it,s not something that we find common amoungst are community,now it would be interesting for such an event to take place,it would also be good to see how the cl's and the community would deal with a "rat",and if the "rat" would have the desired effect for which it was put in place for?

Hearing Marco, Mariano decided to speak his mind

Well I always thought about if people ever even tried doing that, now I finally see that someone actually started talking about it, and I always wanted to actually voice my opinion on this subject.

I think if a Boss/Godfather, sends a spy over to another city to what? Learn their tactics, put it the backalley? This could work but it definetly, I mean sure as hell will scar the Godfather/Boss that sent the spy, like someone said, it'll "dirty your hands." Not literally, but still think about it, is that anyway for someone who is a Godfather of a city, to act in such a dishonorable manner? Sending spies will definetly increase tension between cities if the spies are caught, no, not just tension, a war would definetly break out, and many people will die like usual.

But as I said, if you send over a spy to another city and he doesn't get caught and successfully gathers intel, he dies, which makes his bloodline already known from one crew, and already one crew in that one city will know that his or her bloodline is not to be trusted, well you could always lie and ask for your death, instead of just suiciding, people consider it an honorable way to die.

The point I'm trying to make is that either way, if its a success, the Godfather of the spy would feel that he made a mistake, he wouldn't feel that his city is as good as others. If its a failure, there will be war.

So I don't think it would be such a good idea to send spies to other cities.

I'd have to agree with what many people here have already said. Being a spy is a risky move and would be very time consuming. I haven't seen many cases where someone joined a family originally having the intentions of turning against it in favor of another crew.  There has been more times where someone suddenly changes loyalty, which could still be considered spying.

If a spy was successful, I think the only real benefit would be joining the hit squad and sharing out information on the family's shooters, plans during war, etc. However, as many have stated, if found out, there would be huge consequences.

Some interesting comments guys and im glad to see that you are in agreement that although it has advantages rats are rats and have no place in our society, now i may be wrong in judging the person in question hence why i will not mention any names and i thought long and hard before coming to the streets to bring this subject up but i felt the need to gauge opinion on such matters and i hope i have made my own opinion clear on this matter. Thank you all for your time.

Spying is only bad if you are caught. Regardless of whether or not you get away, if you are identified as a spy your life is over. One slight point though, are you truely a rat if you are spying for your Godfather?

For example, I have sworn an oath of loyalty to my Don. When I die my son comes along and says to him, 'You looked after my father, and he loved you like a brother. I am willing to swear an oath of loyalty to you, however I will go and infiltrate don So and So's family and pass the information to you.'

When I join this other Don as an associate, I have taken no oath to him, I am just an associate, not a made man. By passing information to my Don I am fulfilling my oath to him.

Now, if I join a Don and take an oath to him, then approach another Don and offer to sell out my boss, that makes me a rat and a traitor. I know some will argue that my view is just semantics, but it is what I feel, and according to the diaries of my ancestors something that they had seen put to and used to great effect. There is an old saying, "All is fair in love and war."

"I personally find it interesting that people seem to look at spying the same way as being a rat...did not the great Godfather Vito Corleone (GRHS) send Luca Brasi to pretend to join the Tattalia family and gain information? Luca died in service of his godfather during that mission, but I don't think either side considers him a rat, instead both sides considered him loyal to the death."

Canislupus nods at some of the other comments, "There are a lot of sides to this...yes, it may well cause wars and mistrust...but how many things that a boss does do not carry some risk of mistrust/misunderstanding/war? If a boss wants to take a risk like that, it is his choice. If his spy gets discovered then he had better be ready for any consequences that brings him."

(OOC: In the role play perspective, I have no issues with a boss ordering a subordinate to spy. I do, however, find this unbalancing with game dynamics. IE in the real world to plant a spy you'd need someone you can trust completely...and to risk their life is a serious gamble (because how often do you truly find someone like that?). In the game setting, if I have someone I trust completely who is up for spying, who cares if he dies? He can come back 2 days later with a new name and I'd still completely trust him. This takes all the risk out of the operation and keeps the rewards...thus while I have no problem with it in role play perspective, I find it unbalancing to game dynamics. So don't take my comments as anything other than role play in this regard)

Marco listens intently to what CanisLupus has to say then thinks about it for a while...

"Some interesting comments Canis and although i partially agree with what you say i look at my family members as brothers, and believe that for a family to have any real substance and a strong bond we should be able to trust each other 110%. If there is an element of distrust in any family then i doubt that family would be around for too long".

Marco thanks Canis for his comments then heads off to go bribe the local DFP agent.

Rats are obviously bad.  No ifs, ands or buts.  I dont think thats news to anybody.

This seems to be a different kind've of rat situation we're talking about.  A rat, not looking for self progression, or helping themselves out, or even being stupid, but a rat who is either sabotaging or passing  critical family information to another family is a rat who needs to be put out of business very quickly.  I have heard of this act being done before and here is a few reasons why its not a good idea.

1) War.  Any family leader who finds out they have a rat like that would instantly kill him, but very likely also go after the family the rat is feeding information too.  I would also bet that the leader would have a lot of community backing as many people would find this to be a very dirty tatic.

2) Useless.  Even if they rat could infiltrate the family it would likely take a long time to gain the trust needed to find out anything useful.  He could maybe find out the Hitsquad Leader of a family but other then that his knowledge would not be very beneficial.

3) Tainted.  Anyone exposed doing this would have their family line tainted and probably not accepted by any family anytime soon.

So I really feel like this is not worth it.  It would be more beneficial for the rat to stick with a family and work hard for them to make them stronger rather then eating another family from the inside out.

Stack tips his hat and walks away

As the man above me stated, spies are damaging to everybody involved. Think of this thing of ours as a well-respected business. Public Relations are everything if you're dealing with those that you cannot go after without losses. Intel about possible rivals is not necessary, especially if you're going to risk the well-being of a family and possible a whole city. It's just not worth it, and very disrespectful.

Gwarble listens to the conversation being held about Espionage. It was a worthwhile discussion and the Godfather was pleased to hear valid input from many quarters. He waited for the last man to have his say before he ventured forth his own opinion on the matter.

Before I begin, I think I should probably make it clear that this isn't a practice that anyone from my city undertakes. The reason for that isn't particularly because I disagree with it in principle, because I don't as I'll explain shortly, it is more that the information they could yield is unlikely to have any real value.

I guess my views on this are something of an amalgamation of what we have already heard before. I don't think a purposefully placed mole is a rat. They aren't betraying this thing of ours to the authorities, they are serving another family and whilst it is underhanded and may cause gripes, it isn't in my mind being a rat. As CanisLupus has already pointed out, some of the more famous members of our thing have sent trusted enforcers to infiltrate other families.

There is a very real danger to the original Don who sent a spy that they could end up betraying their original family in favour of their new one. As has already been said, we are somewhat gifted in the lives we lead and we only have so much that we can lose (we can just sign back up) so the mole always has the option of taking what they have gained and remaining loyal. This is a very real danger for anyone willing to employ this risky tactic.

MafiaReturns is the land of 1,000,000 chances. I think it is extremely difficult for people to get to the point where literally nobody will ever trust them again. I have lost track of the amount of times I've been told that I had to go incognito or I would never succeed and yet here I am, still alive and still succeeding. It ultimately comes down to how you conduct yourself on whether or not you'll be able to shake off the mistakes of the past. If you're intelligent, dedicated and hard working, you'll pretty much find that you have no trouble walking into any family, regardless of what you have done.

Ultimately though, the information you can gain from this is limited. You can only learn so much from a HQ that you didn't already know or that you particularly care about. If you have someone who infiltrates the inner circle of another family and feeds you information, then I think that would be a wonderful asset in terms of knowledge and plans, but most organizations trust in their own ability to read the situation and live accordingly.