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| Mugging, a highly debatable feature. | Started by: Squishy on Aug 31, '13 22:40 |
| And I would further contend that it is not the admins' job to demand that every character in the game is some sort of paragon of the "sane mobster" who pauses to rationally consider whether he deserved something before taking action to protect himself. | |
| Reply by: Drunky at Sep 01, '13 07:59 | |
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do i see pp'ing as aggressive. not particularly. Do i see mugging as aggressive, yes. Have i mugged? yes. Has my boss told me not to mug or i will die? no. Could i mug everybody who pp's me? no as i don;t see everyone and b) coz the level of the cap for bgs i am not capable of it coz i average maybe 4 hours a day for this character. Would i care if people shot each other over mugging and pp'ing. not really i have all but the hardcore achievement mostly of pp'ing ca's. I think you are always going to have people who see it as snooping at how trained a bg is, and how good the stealth is. Would i lose any sleep over a pro mugging rule, or a no mugging rule not really. would keep robbing them ca's |
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| Reply by: BackToShootPeeps at Sep 02, '13 01:54 | |
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Speaking as someone who has been robbed in the game, it's not a big deal really. You can earn back most of what is stolen from doing petty crimes or from voting for the game with the little + signs. It's actually very profitable to do the latter, since you don't have to kick back money.
Yeah, it sucks when you see someone robbed you. It's not life and death or real money. It's virtual money. I don't mug people, but I also don't think what I do or don't do should dictate policy. |
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| Reply by: Negi at Sep 03, '13 06:40 | |
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It quite amazes me people have a problem with mugging full stop.
Why there needs to be a rule to stop mugging is micro managing to the maximum extent.
If you don't want to be mugged, don't pick pocket it is really as simple as that.
Why should the game have a feature that involves player v player that is totally 100% risk free?
Maybe as an offset there should be a built in defense skill that automatically mugs someone. Basically a wack back for pick pocketing. That would stop rules being brought in that stop game features. |
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| Reply by: Underdog at Sep 03, '13 11:56 | |
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Underdog , there had been like that, 2 years ago . :) It was replace by mugging though :) |
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| Reply by: Viene at Sep 03, '13 12:04 | |
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The game was originally set up so that it randomly would trigger a mug. Friends who PP'd each other sometimes got hit by an mugback, and asked if we could make it an optional thing rather than a forced thing. This, combined with the crewleaders complaining about the hassle of dealing with people whining that they got pickpocketed, lead us to write Mugging. It was a win/win scenario where people could now take care of unwanted PPs without having to cry to the boss, people who are friends who PP'd each wouldnt worry about being auto mugged, crewleaders would spend less time dealing with whiners, it was a win all around. |
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| Reply by: Squishy at Sep 03, '13 15:50 | |
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And it still is a win! When I pp someone I fully accept the fact that I may be mugged I don't know why people get so horrified over you know it may happen don't fucking pp if your gonna cry like a bitch when someone retaliates on you! |
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| Reply by: _Izzy_ at Sep 07, '13 02:30 | |
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I really fail to see how people. especially in high positions, can claim that PPing is not a personal attack. I´m also having a very hard time understanding how it came so far that completely out of character terms like "PP friendly" were put in place so that stealing from other mobsters got actually considered a sport type of thing? It is far from roleplaying. And now that admin found a solution to get the PP thing back into character, by enabling the player itsself to make the desicion and decide the consequences, people feel that something is beeing taken away from them? |
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| Reply by: Salvatore_Luccia at Sep 07, '13 11:54 | |
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I don't understand players on this. This is a goddamn GAME. You won't die if someone strips you of some cash and timers. So what if they do? I just can't seem to comprehend the wish to play safe all the time. This is a game, taking RISKS is the point, getting in DANGER is what makes it fun! |
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| Reply by: Nello at Sep 07, '13 14:27 | |
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Salvatore: the general trend towards not getting mad about pickpockets stems from leaders not wanting to micro-manage things. They already have enough real controversies/rumors and so forth to deal with before you add in "omg someone picked my pocket" complaints. It's just an unmanageable amount of paperwork, even if it makes no sense that people would be ripping off mafiosos like this. Nello: You are right, you are playing a text based role-playing game. Let me repeat that: a text based role-playing game. What happens to you is most certainly not "oh, I lost a few e-coins and my timers reset." This is what happens: Adrenaline floods your body as you chase down your attacker. You tackle him to the ground, flipping him over with a raised fist. You are not fully in control of yourself as you drive fist after fist into his face. Your target goes limp. After a few more strikes, you start to compose yourself. After rummaging through his pockets and taking what he hadn't thrown down the sewer grate, you spit on his face as a final "Fuck you" before turning away. Finding $[amount] just made your day a little brighter. Your reaction to the seriousness of mugging would be like a D&D player saying "oh, all the DM did was declare he was a goblin and roll some dice at me." It's not wrong, it's not even wrong. It's simply missed the point. |
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| Reply by: Drunky at Sep 07, '13 16:31 | |
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That's the fun of it. The point of a roleplaying game is to roleplay, but point of a game itself is to have fun. Roleplaying can be fun, but outlawing the one thing except wacking that can actually bring you some damage is not a fun thing to do. The fact that, for example, a Wise Guy managed to mug you, a higher rank, makes it a fun story not a reason to fucking ban the feature because it harms you. Look at the Sopranos for example, the episode where Bobby Bacala, a higher ranking member of the Soprano family, is beaten and robbed by a street gang. |
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| Reply by: Nello at Sep 07, '13 19:59 | |
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First and foremost: No one outlawed mugging. There were a few frankly light regulations that attempted to conform people's behavior to a role-play accurate version of how you should behave. "Don't beat the living hell out of fellow members of our city, we play nice with each other" is totally RP-sensible. Secondly: I, for one, do not see the "fun" involved in having the crap beaten out of members of my family and then being told I can't help them formulate a response to it -- they're on their own because admins, despite roleplay. Let's take that example from the Sopranos. If Tony managed to figure out which random gang-bangers were responsible for the mugging, do you think for one second that they'd live through the night, let alone be assured they could keep the money because any response would be inappropriate? You're right, it can make for interesting roleplay. But the only accurate roleplay that mugging can spawn should appreciate the seriousness of the situation. If I mug you, it's because I think the situation has escalated to the point that it is appropriate for you to get your ass beaten despite whatever rank you hold. If you mug me, you'd better feel the same way, because I'm going to treat it that way. I don't think it's right for the admins to declare that attitude to be "banning" mugging and try to argue that it is roleplay inappropriate for me to be pissed off enough to act personally if a friend of mine is in the hospital. |
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| Reply by: Drunky at Sep 08, '13 00:00 | |
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So let me get this straight. The only way you can mug someone is if they pickpocket you first, correct? If you are "PP friendly", fine - no problems. Someone takes it upon themselves to disrespect what you have already stated, and pickpockets you anyway. You respond by mugging them. What is the problem? Why would anyone get upset at the person who mugged, and not at the person who chose to go against said person's request? Why would anyone want to retaliate against someone who clearly stated what would happen? When you go visit someone's turf and you get beat because you acted in a disrespectful manner, there is no way anyone would back you up because you were starting trouble. Or, maybe they would if they practiced rewarding bad behaviors. As for the play nicely with members within the same city, it goes both ways. If you were mugged because you didn't "play nicely" with members within the same city, who is at fault? Should leaders have the right to outlaw mugging? I don't see why they would, except to stop people whining about it...which is not really a good reason. Some people say it's a way to test defense - for crying out loud all of us have in our profiles what sort of defense we have. Be accountable for your own actions - you can't have your cake and eat it too. |
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| Reply by: Blaise at Sep 08, '13 02:17 | |
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| I think we all just need to doubleback | |
| Reply by: YogaFlame at Sep 08, '13 07:21 | |
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In regard to the ask firsts and pp friendly's there have been incidents in this characters life where permission has been given and mugs or mug attempts made. Do we simply shoot these people and say well city rules are city rules on no mugging if pp friendly, or just say well izzy said you can mug and i can't do jack shit about it? We all know we get a few people in society who care less for their lives then others but still go all emo about it even when is their own fault they died, like trying for martyrdom. |
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| Reply by: BackToShootPeeps at Sep 08, '13 07:27 | |
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Someone takes it upon themselves to disrespect what you have already stated, and pickpockets you anyway. You respond by mugging them. What is the problem? I've already addressed that. First and foremost, who logically deserves the blame is 100% separate from both (1) what would naturally follow in an real person's reaction to the situation, and (2) who is in the wrong based on the accepted rules of the mob as an in-character matter. If in the real world someone held me up at gunpoint and took my wallet, ran away, and as they cross the road I saw them get hit by a car and seriously injured and/or killed... I would laugh. Hysterically. I would probably fall down and be unable to get up until I catch my breath. Pause. Let's think rationally. Is getting seriously injured funny? Is getting hit by a car an appropriate punishment for taking someone's wallet? Nope. Probably not. Try to tell me that while I'm laughing so hard my belly hurts and all it'll do is bring on another round of guffaws. People are not strictly rational, dispassionate observers of events that surround them. Everyone is the hero of their own story. If you beat the living shit out of me and take my money, in my eyes, you will be at fault for it regardless of whatever facts you might quote me. That's just how people work. I don't think anyone would argue that mobsters are more prone to ignore base emotions and decide who is in the wrong based on abstract principles of justice. This is a role-playing game. It is wrong for the administration to take away our ability to role-play that response and require us to behave like some sort of adding machine, tallying up the wrongs before we decide how to react. If you want to use the mug button, go right ahead. Fly in the face of everything a lick of common sense will tell you, and beat the living hell out of someone. Take all their cash on hand, and pretend like they deserved it when they confront you about it. But how you can take that action, then demand the administrators of this site punish someone who fucks you up for it? They should be perfectly free to respond to that situation however they feel appropriate. And secondly, as a matter of in-character rules of justice, you're still wrong. The person beating the living hell out of the pickpocket took what was a dispute about money, or being charitable a dispute about respect generally, and turned it into a dispute about blood. To make matters worse, they made it a dispute about blood without clearing it with a crew leader first. If the person who got beat up was Made, that's a world of hurt in and of itself. Some might say wow, that escalated quickly. To the mob, beating the living hell out of a mafioso without clearance from a boss being a bad idea, full stop. The person that brought it upon himself in this situation is the dumbass that thought he could beat up a mafioso without clearance over a couple dollars in his wallet. Because you never touch a made guy. Made guys are untouchable without permission. Period. |
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| Reply by: Drunky at Sep 09, '13 02:51 | |
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In the real world, if someone held you up at gunpoint, I reckon you would be too busy pissing your pants to do much else. |
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| Reply by: Giles_Reynolds at Sep 09, '13 05:21 | |
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First of all, in RL I'm pretty sure if people were able to, they would at least push the unwanted pickpocketer away from them if they tried to take their money, or get physical with them to get the money/items back. That's what mugging serves for here. You may not like the term for it in this game, but it is what it is. Secondly, I doubt a Made person in RL would resort to pickpocketing when there are so many other ways to make money. So again, if you don't want the consequence, don't do the action. Thirdly, if you want to play it that way "a couple of dollars" means that the pickpocketer is stealing from the target's crime boss, because now they are up to 5k short in paying tribute. I don't think anyone would just stand there and do nothing about it when they can just get the money back. It's amazing how some people want everyone else to change, yet the easiest thing to do would be to change their own actions. I don't understand why it's so difficult to comprehend this. You don't have to pickpocket people - you can choose not to do so. Because of this, it doesn't make sense to frown upon mugging. What would any of you propose in lieu of mugging if someone kept pickpocketing you after you made it clear your intentions? To complain to your leader about it? To go to war about it? To shoot the pickpocketer over it? To just stand there and have this person take 5k from you every hour? To write an angry mail and threaten his/her rl over it? What are our options, really? |
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| Reply by: Blaise at Sep 09, '13 10:30 | |
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Adrenaline floods your body as you chase down your attacker. You tackle him to the ground, flipping him over with a raised fist. You are not fully in control of yourself as you drive fist after fist into his face. Your target goes limp. After a few more strikes, you start to compose yourself. After rummaging through his pockets and taking what he hadn't thrown down the sewer grate, you spit on his face as a final "Fuck you" before turning away. Finding $[Amount] just made your day a little brighter. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine whether this description is more in line with my characterization (i.e., serious attack that there's a fair chance leads to hospitalization) or Blaise's characterization (i.e., pushing someone away from you or getting physical to get your money back). What would any of you propose in lieu of mugging if someone kept pickpocketing you after you made it clear your intentions? I call issue with the implication that I somehow want mugging removed from that equation. I've argued strongly that the restrictions in question weren't bans in the first place, and have argued that mugging is a serious matter, not something to be shrugged off. I have not by any means suggested that it should not be part of the game. I would think it a great addition, in fact, if we could just all treat it sensibly and in-character, without admins telling us how we're supposed to behave with it. So to answer your question, if someone kept picking my pocket after I made my intentions clear to them, I'd likely do one of three things: (1) If it's someone from another city, and I thought I could get away with it, I'd probably mug them. I'd mug them knowing that there's a decent chance they will respond by further escalating the situation. I wouldn't cry like a sissy about it if they came back after my mugging with a gun. I wouldn't dream of declaring that action "banning mugging." I'd take that as the calculated risk of the course of action I took. (2) If it's someone from another city and I didn't think I could get away with mugging them, I'd probably send them a mail saying "Thank you sir, may I have another?" I don't think I'd let them know I was actually opposed to it, because what good could come of it? But if I were feeling particularly confrontational, and they knew I didn't want to be PPed, I might send a mail with an empty threat of "next time you do that, I'll mug you," and then I'd hope they don't call my bluff. But I probably wouldn't send a mail like that, because they'd probably know I was not in a position to carry through on that threat, call my bluff, and then there wouldn't be a good way for me to save face. (3) If it's someone from my city, I'd probably send them a nastygram and demand the pickpocket's tax payments be on the large side for the next few weeks. They can afford it since they obviously have all sorts of untaxed income from wallets, after all. See, there's the thing. I don't have hard and fast rules about my in-character interactions. I have general guidelines that include things like "don't mug city-mates because there are friendlier ways to fix it," and "don't piss on the leg of anyone you can't take in a fair fight," and "don't be that guy people can beat the shit out of and get away with it." I don't like that some of the results of my in-character calculations of how to respond are being foreclosed by labeling them "banning mugging." |
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| Reply by: Drunky at Sep 10, '13 07:50 | |
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Drunky is receiving maximum xp value from this thread :D |
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| Reply by: YogaFlame at Sep 10, '13 07:54 | |
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