Maria listens carefully to what Spunky has to say, agreeing with some things, disagreeing with others. Although young to this world, she'd studied hard the journals of those who had come before her, and she felt as though she may be able to offer a few words to the conversation.

"Good evening, Spunky. I feel as though there is plenty of weight to a lot of what you have said here. I don't agree with all of it, and I'll explain for why in a moment; but first onto that with which I do agree."

"The concept of bloodlines is not unhealthy, in my opinion. The concept. The obsession with them, though, is incredibly unhealthy, and I would agree with your statement that this is causing a real level of stagnation within our world. If people wish to share their bloodline, then I think that's a fair choice to them. Sure if somebody has had an exemplary bloodline, members of the family who have always been fantastic... why wouldn't they? At the same time, though, I do believe that people should have the right to cast aside their bloodline, to incog, if you like."

"The late, great Don Orithyia made a speech on this matter before she headed off into the sunset, and I think that this quite nicely sums up the way our world works, and underlines one of the biggest problems that we have. The city hall records of this speech can be found here, but I'll read out the part that I believe to be of most significance to our conversation here."

"What difference does a person's bloodline make on their current living family member? Isn't it more important what they're currently doing rather than what their ancestors were doing? Is it going to offend you if they don't tell you who their parents were?

Surely, all that is important is that I look after my boss, Subtle, our allies and my own family to the best of my abilities while ensuring my family don't step out of line? What else matters?

It's a worrying trend considering a lot of these mails are coming from people in bold or hand positions."

"I believe whole heartedly that Orithyia was right in these words. Now, I think most of us here who had ancestors who had the pleasure of working closely with Orithyia can agree; she was an exceptional mobster, she was a good crew leader, and she was deeply principled and was willing to follow those principles to the end. Why DID it matter so much which bloodline she belonged to, when she undoubtedly performed her duties both as a right hand to Subtle and as a crew leader exceptionally?"

"Why was it that those in the bold or slanty suits felt that it was their right to demand to know who her ancestors were?"

"And I've seen it with my own eyes. People ask invasive questions about which bloodline you descend from. They demand to know. Why? Why the fuck should it matter? If the individual concerned doesn't wish to volunteer that information, why do others feel the need to try to demand it from them? As long as the individual is working hard, isn't causing trouble, isn't doing anything bad or stupid, or drawing negative attention to themselves or their crew, why does anything else matter?"

"On the other hand, I don't believe that discarding coffee shop relationships is the answer to this. The coffee shops have genuinely become a dimension to this world and I do not believe that that can easily be undone. Nor do I entirely think that it should be. It offers us a quick and easy way to communicate, it allows us the chance to speak to people who we might not otherwise have chance to speak to. I do believe that the coffee shops have a positive effect on expanding our personal boundaries in this world, although I acknowledge that sometimes it does make this world a tougher place for those who do not frequent the coffee shops. In the time that my bloodline has been on these shores, however, the coffee shops have always been there, have always been something that I viewed as just another part of the game, rather than as something extra to the game. The first Godfather to my bloodline once said something about how he viewed one of the requirements for auth to be to either have streets presence or coffee shop presence; both if possible, but definitely one or the other. I have to say that I agree with his stance on that particular issue. Now, this does lead into another entirely different issue of it's own; are the coffee shops responsible for the significantly reduced flow of information to the streets, and to entirely another debate on whether leaders should push street activity as a significant thing for their crews. But, I have to say, that I do see the wisdom in that first Godfathers words. Because the coffee shops, even though they might cause the breakdown of communication on the streets, even though they may encourage the significance of bloodlines, are a part of our world."

"Although in principle, I do disagree with a climate where young auths are prevelent, I do accept that in certain cases, it is needed; for instance, the May war saw our world decimated, auths had to come from somewhere. But, I don't think that the pattern of people dying and then their sons and daughters dropping straight back into a bold suit is quite as large as some would have us believe. There are currently twelve crew leaders authed (excluding Black Bottom crew leaders, with the frequency that these are changing at the moment), whom my bloodline has never seen in a bold suit before to our knowledge. For several of the ones that we have, it has been quite some time since they were and having tracked their careers, it is hard to claim that their auths were just given automatically. At the end of the day, if somebody sticks out as particularly worthy of auth to a Godfather or to a district leader, why shouldn't they, if they genuinely believe it to be for the good of their district?"

"Onto again the issue of hands. This is where I disagree strongly with yourself and with rw318, Spunky. The trust of a person with their button does not equal, in my opinion, the trust of the person who has been chosen by my leader as their hand. Yes, from a lot of perspectives, it makes little to no sense when you look at it purely with the context of our world in mind, to have low ranked hands. At the same time though, why does it rest well with people for a Don to take orders from someone just awarded their button? Should hands be chosen for the role simple because of rank? If you also look at the things that the Gods by enforcement allow the right hand in particular to access, I think this also flags up a problem for those who believe that the role of right hand is interchangeable between any member of a given crew. You want to discard coffee shop relationships from our world - that's fine. But sometimes, leaders have messages exchanged on matters outside of this world via their mailboxes inside this world. Or we have conversations that we perhaps don't want somebody that we trust as part of our families, but do not wish to be party to every conversation that we have to see. If the Gods were to give leaders more control over this, perhaps leaders would be more willing to allow people that they know less personally in this spot. But, I know that I certainly wouldn't let a person that didn't have my absolute trust both inside and outside of this world in that spot with the current set up."

Well as the topic has been brought up, i will follow along. Here is my bloodline that i can think of.

Daryl

Phantom

Deadliestsaint

Clyde_

Silent

Dylan-ger

thejoker

And thats all i remember:)

Its a problem, I agree. No amount of moaning will change that. Current leaders may forget why newer players come and play the game. I personally like to have responsibilities and lead others; hopefully one day I can work my arse up to get those. It is very demoralizing when I see the children of recently deceased upper structure members come and join the same crew that just killed off their parents AND THEN receive auth's/hands/etc. 

Am I upset that these are the guys getting permissions and respect ? Slightly. Does that make me want to cry about it? No. It makes me want to work harder in order to establish my bloodline and set up my future offspring for the opportunities. 

On the other hand we have bloodlines because they threw a hissy fit that one time or they rogued then their name is mud. Just because someone is from the same gene pool doesn't mean they will follow the same path.

 I do agree with what has been said my friend. One can't be judged by the actions of his father or his grandfather before, but I fear there ARE people who do believe that someone's offspring do carry on some of their family's key traits, some which may involve something on the lines of going rogue.

But, there ARE people who disregard all this horse shit, and treat people for who they are, and not who they have been. I can quote more than just a few bloodlines who have found their way into a bold/slanty suit, RIGHT after their father/mother has gone crazy rogue.

This topic had been floating around these streets way too long, and each person to come across it, had a completely different view of it, and I'm certain it will be the same way for a long time from now.

Ohai.

Well, another person bitching about bloodlines playing a role on here? How delightfully quaint. Not to mention original. 

Moving on, 

As a leader if you have trusted someone with their button then they should have the trust to be a hand. If they don't then they don't have the requirements to be made.

Oh.Lord.No.

Just because someone has a button, they are automatically capable of assisting in running a Family? Are you fucking kidding me? A button is not handed based on how well a person will be able to handle the politics and the mobmails that a hand has to deal with. A button man is held in higher esteem than an associate. He is trusted with the inner workings of the Family. He is NOT expected to have the know-how to run a Family.

Also, about this whole 'Thug as a RHM devalues ERRYTHING'. No, it fucking doesn't. If a person's rank was completely and totally in the hands of the crew leader, let me assure you...everyone will have Dons and Consigs....well, MM+ at the very least, as hands. Sadly, that is not the way our world works. People need to wait for quite some time. They need to convince the drug dealer to let them transport a large amount of drugs.

If you are going to suggest for one split second that the amount of drugs a person can carry is the only indication of their worth as a mafioso or some how connected to the amount of work they have put into the survival of a Family...you are either senile or insanely arrogant.

While I am on the theme of this, our world is too reliant on the coffee shops. Groups are formed and the average joe who hasn't got the capability to frequent the coffe shops as often are at a disadvantage even though here on the streets they have worked their socks off.
 

Define 'working their socks off'. Does it mean running around doing more drug deals? Shooting more sleeping bums? Well......if so, sorry to be the first to tell you, our world...doesn't really run on just those acts...it's based on relationships. So...if you're an 'average joe' who takes the time to message his CL and his fellow members, make friends inside and outside his city and basically...forge relationships...then he will not be looked over or be at a disadvantage.

Ultimately it comes down to those who are in power. If you were to be the most powerful Godfather...an untouchable of sorts, then maybe you could 'hold your breath for change' and it will happen. 

Personally, I don't believe the situation needs to change. Just people who are being bitter about it without really trying to make it work. 

Also, on the note of Orithiya...as much as I love the TeQ bloodline....her CL did know which bloodline she belonged to. So...she really isn't a mascot for the whole 'no-name from nowhere becoming a badass' brigade. Kthxlolbhai.

Bitter much?

Yeah, pretty much. You've seen through my ruse, oh great and might rw318! You know it all!

Of course, it doesn't matter that you have yet to respond to ANY of the points I or others have made to devalue your sad and rather gloomy opinions , does it? 

IT'S RW318! HE KNOWS ALL!

Thank you all for coming out and speaking on this topic and I am glad that I have those that don't agree with what I have said because if they didn't this whole speech would end up being remarkably boring. I will respond to you all but unfortunately I don't have the time at the moment to reply to you all at once.

Maria, I agree the coffee shops are now too heavily ingrained in this thing of ours for it to cease it's involvement but as you have said maybe our leaders should try and promote street activity so that things that matter in this world are accessible for everyone and not just those in coffee shops. I agree after the May war auths were needed and that instance I can understand why bloodlines were taken into account and that once people had ranked to Made they got auth.

Recently we have had your boss authed at 11 days. Now I don't claim know the inner workings of Chicago but if I was a member there and had been for sometime I would be wanting to know what he had done in 11 days that I had failed to muster in x amount of days. Then he goes and gets his own district, surely this was all based on his bloodline and not what he had done for Chicago at that point. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong and I'll gladly eat humble pie.

Your last point Maria, im afraid I won't change my mind here. Why should a thug be able to order around a button man? That just doesn't make any sense? I won't claim to know how promotions work in every family but rank should matter and a thug barking orders to anyone that has a button or more just means rank is irrelevant. You're right a made man shouldn't be able to bark orders to a Don but let us take baby steps.

Also if leaders want to certain mails to be private in regards to things outside this life they have a back alley to conduct these activities.

Maria, I agree the coffee shops are now too heavily ingrained in this thing of ours for it to cease it's involvement but as you have said maybe our leaders should try and promote street activity so that things that matter in this world are accessible for everyone and not just those in coffee shops. I agree after the May war auths were needed and that instance I can understand why bloodlines were taken into account and that once people had ranked to Made they got auth.

Yes, I truly believe leaders should try to promote street activity as well. But, here's the thing. I believe that leaders have to practice what they preach, particularly on street activity. Again, this leads into another debate, but how many leaders do we have who you could trip over on the streets and not be aware of what you'd done, for all the time they spend out here speaking? Until leaders themselves are willing to set the example, we won't see an increase in streets activity. Until our current crop are willing to set the example and enforce it as a requirement, it doesn't seem to be the kind of thing to just "happen".

Recently we have had your boss authed at 11 days. Now I don't claim know the inner workings of Chicago but if I was a member there and had been for sometime I would be wanting to know what he had done in 11 days that I had failed to muster in x amount of days. Then he goes and gets his own district, surely this was all based on his bloodline and not what he had done for Chicago at that point. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong and I'll gladly eat humble pie.

My bloodline wasn't in Chicago at the time, wasn't even close to Chicago nor the decisions made here, so I can't really answer this. It's a question better left to NealCaffrey himself, or to Maple, or somebody else involved in that decision.

What I CAN say though, is that NealCaffrey has shown faith in me that he didn't have to show, and has in my experience so far, been a fantastic leader. I don't think that authing him can be considered a mistake.

Your last point Maria, im afraid I won't change my mind here. Why should a thug be able to order around a button man? That just doesn't make any sense? I won't claim to know how promotions work in every family but rank should matter and a thug barking orders to anyone that has a button or more just means rank is irrelevant. You're right a made man shouldn't be able to bark orders to a Don but let us take baby steps.

That's fair, I don't expect you to change your mind based only from my words. I have my opinion and you have yours. I've been on both sides of this argument and I won't tell you that shit doesn't stink when you see someone come in above you on a fresh account, or right off the back of a fuckup. But, I also won't tell you that as a leader, you don't want people around you that you can trust and rely on, that are easily contactable, that you know have your back, and many other reasons.  The amount of drugs you can carry and the number of days old you are seem more mechanical than anything else.

If you weigh that much importance to hierarchy, Spunky, then only the highest ranking person after the CL would have to be the RH, then the LH, etc, regardless of whether they know to handle themselves with that responsibility or not. You should know that you're stating the ideal, but the ideal may not always be the best option in this world of ours.

Just ranking up shouldn't be someone's ticket to a slanty suit, as much as it shouldn't be for a bold one. As Kittyhawk has mentioned earlier, building relationships is also quite important.

Also, from my experience I've seen people rage quit if their promotions were withheld. So if you were to expect something more than just a ton of money and the basic requirements of made from a wise guy, that would be the ideal. However, the ideal, in this instance, possibly would not be digested well by certain wise guys, who end up quitting eventually. So when CLs are posed with the dilemma of promotion, they would have to think of the donations they would miss, which can be really crucial, especially for a new crew. Hence they choose to promote, rather than to lose a good earner. Now tell me, would such a button man be a deserving RH or LH? Sometimes, one has to step away from the ideal, and comprehend the logical side of things for once.

Since no one has done so yet, I think I should share my bloodline.

Thesosa
Thebaron
K-nynes
Surreal

Thoee are my most recognizable bloodline members.

Hum mm Humm evilclown clear his through 

Hi every one well true i am not the real EC you all know, My father was a real good friend of Evilclown his name was Reverend and Priest with few - _ D and so on but after few year of rest Reverend'son , I , decide to take a walk again , I did try to bring with me EC but he feel to old to run a round now after MIA and BG. So we decide to change cloth just for fun  and see who would remember us.

Time has pass but lot of you tape me on the shoulder and got the shock 

Please I do apologist for this mascaraed. In fact i do regret now as  EC was not the man i tho he was, but this is long time ago and i would thank to any one who have not  pull the trigger on me.

I have Meet lots of good old Friends but is one I would love  to see is Mr-kong so if you see him please tell him i will be in Defy's HQ family bar every day round 10 am 

thank you 

Montenegro I agree that the ideal is not always possible especially in this world especially when we are set in our ways. In all honesty let them rage quit if theor promotions are withheld. If you were a leader wouldn't you prefer a family that works hard than one that throw their toys out when they don't get their way?

What if those little rage quits mean another member of your family gets killed? That's happened before, as rw318 can attest. 

I would like to think that crew leaders don't just promote people on how many units they carry. I would like to think that they take into account how the person conducts themselve when talking to people. How in a time of energency they step up and do something to assist the family without being asked to. Getting the required drug units should be the easy part earning the respect and trust of your leader to earn you button shouldn't be a walk in the park. Shouldn't the rank of made be something cherished?

Of course they do. The point I am trying to make is simple. If the promotion depended solely on whether or not a CL thinks a certain member is worthy of the button, then I'd agree with rw318 and you. Otherwise....I don't see any correlation between the number of drug units and the capacity of a member.

 Let me ask you Kitty how does a thug have the required ability to run a family when the boss is away?

 Well, let's take an example shall we?.. let's say my father was a Don who ran a district. I hung around the house...a lot. I listened, I picked up little things...did little jobs and my father showed me the ropes on how to do things. I met my father's friends and quite a few of them knew me better than they did most of my dad's Made guys. That is how.

Working their socks off, I don't just mean someone that is awesome at committing crimes. I mean someone that is a bit of a jack of all trades. Someone that can crime, they don't necessarily need to be an expert marksman but a must is that they are able to network and communicate effectively. Someone that can problem solve and diffuse situation and someone that can make a decision in all situations. In my eyes they have to show that they can do all this and that is hard work hence the phrase working their socks off.

If you can name me one person who has actually fulfilled all those criteria and the criteria I have mentioned and has been constantly looked over, I will reconsider my stance on this topic.