A few thoughts on this whole ordeal...

First of all, thank you to the associate that brought this conversation to my attention.

Second, I would like to thank everyone for your kind words of support (I include the arguments against him as supporting my cause as well).

His definition of "tantrum" left a lot to be desired. If THAT is a tantrum, boy, you should see me when I'm REALLY pissed. I can REALLY make a fool of myself.

Another thing: "The boss of the family attended, even ordered Alistair to..." That's a lie. Zaheer didn't even know he existed at the time. He talked to HIS SPONSOR.

Seraphyna. I am aware I will not change your views, but I believe you don't deserve not to have them contested. This is the most hierarchical system you will know. It still blows my mind that your bloodline is around with how much of an anarchist or democratic that you are. If a Made Man in your family decides to mess with you and grab a few bucks from your pocket, he has the right to do so and you should put up with it. End of discussion. Be forewarned that if you argue me on this you will be ignored. 

Gatsby, I'm a bit confused. How is it that he hindered me for life?

Yeah i agree Heartbreakridge why are we feeding this nonsense. We all pretty much agree that Alistair was right. Lets all go look at the Gatsby Gazette! 

Lenin can't believe what he is hearing, shaking his head in disbelief.

“Who steals from there own family? Who? In this world of ours are family is the only thing we have. What I see here is unbelievable. First off, yes your family should be willing to help you and that means expect your pocket picked once in a while. Now if the person is in your own family, without question you should return it which Alistair did. BillyJoel had no place to mug a member of his family if the money was wired back to him in a timely manner. I can't believe you guys would stand besides BillyJoel, personally once he brought harm to someone in his own family unprovoked he should have been tossed out into the streets and left there to fend for himself. Let him get a taste of what this world is without his family standing beside him.

Lenin shakes his head in disbelief, then too this is what capitalism thrives on, greed. People are willing to step on any one, even there own families and crew, to climb up another ring on the ladder of wealth.

As a RH, unless someone states they are unfriendly to the picking of pockets I'd be pissed off too if a someone mugged me. Own family doing that shit? I wouldn't have even been polite to the guy about it, they should know better.

If LV had come under attack, Alistair would've been one of the more likely to have to move about to try and protect the family, this action put paid to that. When you're willing to risk your entire family's health for a 'cheap laugh' or to get back at someone (without carring and unfriendly tag), I'd probably just have shot him after the first reply.

Stupid choice (remember, he chose to take this path), stupid person.

Good job Alistair, keep up the good work.

Seraphyna looks over at Alistair, a smile playing on her lips.

You want to talk about bloodlines? well okay. Since you want to bring it up and I wasn't commenting on the full situation here we go.

Do you remember Cin? Yes? That lovely ancestor of mine who decided to be a little more lenient in the pickpocketing department. You act as if my line has never encountered this problem, as if all my line can possible do is be pro-mug. Well even she while standing in her fancy bold suit had a few people mug her. FastFingersFreddy, merely a wise guy, mugged her when she dared to put her hands in his pocket, of course after a bit of encouragement to mug her from her LH. Do you think she flipped out about it? Had a little tantrum about it? Nope. She laughed with her family about it.

So yes, anyone that sticks their hands in another person's pockets regardless of the rank should expect to be mugged. Its a clear cut risk you take when you venture down that path.

Now if we want to get directly into the situation, you sir wear a Not PP friendly tag, but you went ahead and went into a family member's pockets? You think it is unfair for them to mug you? I would mug you on the grounds of being a hypocrite.

Is it fair he mugged you when he wears no tags? Some would say it is.

Was this the right way for BillyJoel to bring it up for discussion? Most definitely not. No one will argue that.

Is it fair he mugged family? Oh hell yes. What people seem to forget is although we are here to make money, family is supposed to come first. I would think this would mean you respect your family that much more. So if you are a Made you would leave people alone unless you knew for sure that they were friendly to having their wallets grabbed.

Do not presume to tell me what my bloodline should or shouldn't do. You may be a RH in Las Vegas but you are not my leader. If I wish to counter the things that you have said, I will do so in a polite manner as I have done now. You want to start an argument and run away from it, that is your choice. I will not.

I must admit I overlooked a bit of hypocrisy on Alistair's part as he is carrying the following tag...

Not PP friendly. Stick to CAs for all I care.

Why would you be pickpocketing active mobsters when you do not allow it yourself? Hypocrites ARE usually mugged in this world. I can guarantee if you pickpocket me I'll be taking you for everything you're worth considering your tag.

I mug anybody who picks my pocket without asking. Made, associate, anybody. One of my ancestors actually had an attempt made on his life over a pickpocketing incident that resulted in the pickpocketer's death.

Firm stance to take -Prae. As you've earned your button, you should be able to mug any associate you want. If your own CL, or Godfather stole from your pockets, and you in turned mugged them. Well, I'd be sad to attend your funeral, but I would understand it.

Personally, I think the worse of this now dead young lad's major mistake was to come out to the street in they way he did and make a fool of himself. He didn't really make his family look bad, but himself.

This is definitely not the way that one should go about this situation or any other situation similar to this, but alas hindsight is an amazing skill that he did not possess and maybe, just maybe, if he had held this amazing skill, He could have changed his outcome of visiting the dead.

Needless to say that i hope that he may rest in peace and that if his kin decides to visit among our wonderful shores, that he would learn from his ancestors mistake and learn from it.

My ancestors have mugged consigs while they were only earners. It's part of the risk of pickpocketing, no matter the rank.

Sad that you don't respect the hierarchy of this world.

I do respect the heirarchy of this world. But CLs and made men know what they're getting into when it comes to pickpocketing. They know the rules, it's how they've made it so far.

I hate you all with a passion that burns hotter than the desert sun.

Lenin, your initial question contradicts your whole message afterwards. and to be honest, I contemplated reporting him to my boss and *of course* I contemplated shooting him in the face

BUT

I DID try to steal from him and since I had been able to put all my money away, there was no real harm done. Like I told him at the time. I wasn't upset, but I did feel the need to tell him how much he had screwed up. Im actually glad how it all played out, even to this very last moment. He made an ass of himself all on his own, without my help. What more can I ask than for my patience to pay off and let him hang himself with his own rope?

Seraphyna, congratulations. You skill at making assumptions is as sharp as ever. Keep up the good work. All I said was that your bloodline is known to not follow hierarchy and do whatever the hell they feel like. Your people usually have a concept of loyalty and obedience but it is a very unique and incomplete version of it. I will not say more on this matter because I am not sure what I'm supposed to know and what I'm not supposed to know about your ancestors.

By the way, I see that you picked up the word tantrum from our dear friend Kuku over here. Is this seriously what counts as a tantrum of flipping out for you? Man! What a shirt fuse you must have. Oh! Sorry, my mistake. I just remembered who I am talking to right now. Of course you must have the shortest fuse.

Oh, and speaking of standards falling. There was a time when little thugs had to respect Made Men from ALL over, not the ones in their own family. Usually the little loud mouths that would mouth off to high rankers in other families belonged to families that liked pushing their weight around and bullying smaller cities, so being from that school I believe you owe me respect no matter what city you hail from. And I miss those times. 

I don't feel like going from public records but it seems that the people you pickpocketed were not in your family. So you very much deserved to be mugged since I believe you are not pickpocket friendly. In this case, it was with a member of our family.

And that brings me to Kevin's point. Yes, there is a bit of apparent hypocrisy. Family can pickpocket me as some already have without repercussion but those members paid back almost as fast as I pay back when I do. Even while being a hypocrit the whole MAde MAn status that several were defending earlier should allow me to be a bit of a hypocrite with my own thugs.

Seraphyna smiles as she listened. She had gathered her thoughts. First she would tackle one issue at a time. Turning her attetntion to Falcon she began.

Falcon, while I can understand your point of view I just can't agree with it. You feel that people Made Man and up should do what they want but the rules of our community say otherwise. A Made cannot shoot a gangster without any rules about it, without risking their lives. So why should mugging and pickpocketing be any different? Once you pickpocket you have accepted that you will be mugged if you do not fly out to ensure otherwise. It is the risk that has been repeated time and time again. If you glance at city rules you will see most do not wish to get involved in pickpocketing disputes. Why is this? Because everyone acknowledges that it is a well known risk.

You want associates to respect those of high ranks while you give none to them? Respect works both ways. It does not go just one way whenever it feels like it. Are you going to ask your crewleader for a pro during a war? Chances are not, but you will turn to those associates you deem unworthy of your respect. Why should they bother to put their lives on the line for those that can't be bothered to respect a simple little request?

Without losing her smile she turns next to Alistair.

If you are referring to when Cin was mugged sir, you can rest easy. FastFingersFreddy was indeed apart of The House of Logi at the time. Does that mean she would have wished ill on her member? No.

I think you have your facts slightly skewed as well. Cin was PP friendly to not friendly depending on her mood. She was open to being pickpocketed most of the time. You are right though, I am not pickpocket friendly, but I am not Cin. I am Seraphyna.

Again, I am not saying the way this situation was brought to the streets was right. I was merely picking up the mugging and pickpocketing aspect of it. It wasn't until you decided to attack my bloodline that I chose to point out the fact that you are a hypocrite. If you do not wish people to pickpocket you, then why would you do it to anyone else?

If you honestly believe insulting me makes your case that much better, by all means keep at it. However, I have been nothing but civil towards you during this exchange. So this is just going to show that you want respect, yet cannot seem to give it yourself. Interesting.

I never insulted you. I may have belittled you due to our rank gap but I didn't insult you. And again, respect works both ways in other contexts and not this one. That was something your bloodline was never able to understand as far as mine has been around hearing stories about you. You owe your superiors everything and they don't owe you shit. You expect them to be super grateful for your pro shots? What the fuck are you goombas good for if you can't even guarantee a pro shot in times of war? All your reasoning for valuing the life of anything below Wise guys are related to pink and happy worlds where everybody is equal and have rights. None of which applies here. As far as I know you have never been able to give complete and unconditional loyalty to your bosses. There may have been an exception or two, but the majority is so overwhelming that I don't care about exceptions. 

If you honestly believe that's all low ranks are good for, then I pity your family. I think many different ranks and sorts of people bring many different things to the table. Certainly more than just one aspect.

Again we are going into the bloodline stuff? Really? Is that all you have the ability to do during a discussion if you don't agree with the person?  Don't presume to know everything especially in regards to loyalty and my line. Loyalty does not mean simply bowing down and taking a beating because of your rank. Loyalty is being there for five days straight during a war when everyone else opts to sleep to ensure your leaders safety. Loyalty is being there when push comes to shove. It is not bowing down just because it is expected from you. So kindly, stop trying to make your points with my ancestors past.