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GAME CHANGE: The rising cost of keeping the cites safe. Started by: Squishy on Aug 25, '17 21:25

Crime and trash these days, I tell ya.  So often these no good thugs come into our area and just stand around stinkin' up the joint.  Well, the latest initiative from the Mayors office is as follows:

When the cities dips to a point where we have to double the police/sanitation workers/social programs to help rebuild it, taxes will be imposed on all employers to help cover the cost.  Initial projections estimate around 2x what some are used to paying, on a gradual increase until the additional efforts to get the unemployed off the streets has been resolved.

This program will start shortly.

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Can we get more specifics as to what qualifies as a city that's dipped below acceptable? What will be taxed? Double the 8% flat tax on CLs???

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After certain time in rebuild mode the flat tax will double, and the longer it stays in rebuild, it can increase.

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I don't agree with this, but I will speak with you in private.

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I think its an awesome idea. 

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Why, though? Isn't that more or less an extra punitive tax because there aren't enough users to keep the game afloat with the current number of cities?

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Why, though? Isn't that more or less an extra punitive tax because there aren't enough users to keep the game afloat with the current number of cities?

Its kind of the opposite actually.  It means the bottom is too large for the top to support.

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good idea and good change. plenty of rank, money and experience around so no real excuses.

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Could be good, could be bad. Is like to see how it plays out though.
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Is there anyway we could get statistics as to why this is occurring?  To me, from the outside looking in, it seems this is just another way to get more money out of users.  Is there really that big of a problem?  

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 To me, from the outside looking in, it seems this is just another way to get more money out of users.  Is there really that big of a problem?  

Its two fold.

Its to close a gaping loophole.  Right now, those with established guns could abuse a game mechanic to oppress those that are growing.  Once you are a capped killer and are fully IWP, you can advance no more, so the next best thing is to slow down the advancement of those underneath you.  This makes using this as a strategy less viable.

Its also to maximize the effectiveness of what I put into advertising.  Right now, we average a cost of around 20 dollars per new user.  Imagine if we could cut out 2-3 no contacts a day that would end up as users?  That's 40-60 dollars a day, thats $14,600 to $21,900 a year just in 'ehh fuckit, not worth it' attitudes of some CLs/sponsors.  And thats just helping the no contacts situation, imagine if more sponsors were enthusiastic and effective to boot?

Listen, at the end of the day, I'm driving an 11 year old truck with broken transmission, no AC and for the past decade I've continually demonstrated over and over that I am willing to max all my credit cards to keep this community going. If I wanted to "get more money" out of the users, I would simply slow down or stop giving it away by the truckload. What I am trying to do is ensure the long term viability of the site to weather any storm thrown at it by any group who will do long term damage in order to win in the short.

This feature, in theory, should never really kick in.  Its a safeguard to ensure that in the future, people at the top don't benefit as easily from self destructing the site past the point of recovery.

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Considering how much rebuild mode has been on lately due to a lack of sponsorship, I think this is a great plan. Sure we're at 98% or higher coverage in the past few days, but it seems to come in waves. 

Then again, will it really make a difference? So they pay more in taxes during rebuild and get to stack less credits while sitting pretty at the top. I doubt it actually changes anything. 

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Listen, at the end of the day, I'm driving an 11 year old truck with broken transmission, no AC and for the past decade I've continually demonstrated over and over that I am willing to max all my credit cards to keep this community going. If I wanted to "get more money" out of the users, I would simply slow down or stop giving it away by the truckload. What I am trying to do is ensure the long term viability of the site to weather any storm thrown at it by any group who will do long term damage in order to win in the short.

This feature, in theory, should never really kick in.  Its a safeguard to ensure that in the future, people at the top don't benefit as easily from self destructing the site past the point of recovery.

 

I genuinely appreciate your honesty.  If it ensures the long-term viability of the site then so be it.  Whatever does that is best in the long run so by all means.  I was just curious as to why this was being implemented.  As in the past you were very transparent, thank you.

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I think we should all be grateful for MR, and do our best to keep this game/community going for all of us that love to play :) I think this has it's place.

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That's 40-60 dollars a day, thats $14,600 to $21,900 a year just in 'ehh fuckit, not worth it' attitudes of some CLs/sponsors.  And thats just helping the no contacts situation, imagine if more sponsors were enthusiastic and effective to boot?

There is a very real money cost to you, so I understand why you would perceive this to be the situation. However, there is a very obvious owner/player disconnect with this issue, which is why it isn't being resolved.

The current system provides users with a jobs board that is essentially free money, provided to them by the crewleaders. They invariably click all of the jobs, regardless of who is offering them and then join whoever makes entry into their family the easiest.

Since I began as a crewleader my recruitment rate is less than 10% overall and in the last 30 days, it is at 5%. I would estimate (because I can't see full figures anymore) that I have acquired 7 members from the 99 people who have completed their jobs. I think each person gets $15,500 from me and therefore each member costs me approximately $200,000 to acquire. 

In addition to the monetary requirement (which is raised for realism), there is the far more debilitating time-cost argument. Most people either reply to my mail saying they aren't interested or don't reply at all. I, frankly, have better things to do with my time than become a cold caller on an internet Mafia game. That might sound quite jarring to you, but this is a game and it is played for enjoyment. Expecting users to do something they don't enjoy on a game makes them less likely to play it, which is entirely counter-productive to what you're trying to achieve, and punishing the users you do have to try and increase compliance is only going to exacerbate that.

The latter part of the quote is where we should be spending our time and effort - "imagine if more sponsors were more enthusiastic and effective to boot". How do we achieve that? Is making me pay more in mayoral tax going to do that? 

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Since I began as a crewleader my recruitment rate is less than 10% overall and in the last 30 days, it is at 5%. I would estimate (because I can't see full figures anymore) that I have acquired 7 members from the 99 people who have completed their jobs. I think each person gets $15,500 from me and therefore each member costs me approximately $200,000 to acquire. 

The latter part of the quote is where we should be spending our time and effort - "imagine if more sponsors were more enthusiastic and effective to boot". How do we achieve that?

We are all stuck in a catch 22.  Users are pissed at the top.  They think that if they put effort into their characters, they will be killed like those before them.  A thinking a majority of the returning users that are not bothering to reply are ones that are signing back up after being killed over and over and over by those currently at the top.  Can you see the issue? 

For new users that you think are doing it just for the money, have you considered explaining in your RP jobs that the path to MUCH more money is to join the family to have the ability to do higher paying jobs?  Have you effectively communicated that joining the LarryLongNeck crew is a step forward?

And the $200k price.  Do your members really not earn you 200k in return?  Looking at your numbers, you get given a matching amount of whatever your members get from voting - you personally received enough from your members just voting to pay for 670 jobs. Thats without a single tax being paid.  If you cant look your members in the eye and say 'You are without a doubt worth the 200k I spent on you', then maybe you should turn the job boards off.

You say you dont have time to do cold calling.  You're right, you are a crewleader, you have people for this. Somewhere in your crew are people who are social, enjoy the game, and love to take people under their wing.  What avenues have you gone down with your sponsors as incentive to handle the growth of your crew?  Have you given their money back to them that is earmarked for them, or do you keep it?  Have you given bonuses on top?  Does it help with their promotion chances?  Do you BG them up?  What thanks did you find worked best for creating the situation where sponsors took the load off of you, and flourished themselves?

 

Is making me pay more in mayoral tax going to do that? 

Yes, I think when you are faced with the option of 'Do we keep the game in rebuild mode intentionally for our gain' or 'Do we not get taxed for that'.  I believable the mayors tax will entice those at the top to not put the game intentionally into rebuild mode and keep it there.

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For at least a year, deficits of userbase growth have been quite squarely blamed on the users. That users are wasting money by not recruiting well enough, despite the fact that the money came from credit purchases by the users. That it is both the responsibility to fund the marketing efforts and supplement them with cold calling may be a lot to ask.

Is it possible that new players are coming to the problematic conclusion that this game might not offer them as much as they hoped? Either they learn fast and realize how impotent they are at the early and middle stages of the game ("I need how many kills?") or they learn slow and never even reach the middle and late stages of the game ("why did I die??? BUNNY SUCKS!!!11!!"). Either way, opportunity to do "mafia things" is broadly unavailable. Many may spend most of their time engaging more with NPCs than players, despite having the origin of their characters barraged with messages from every city.

Perhaps the game needs to offer more to new players than just existing players convincing them to stay.

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For at least a year, deficits of userbase growth have been quite squarely blamed on the users. That users are wasting money by not recruiting well enough, despite the fact that the money came from credit purchases by the users. That it is both the responsibility to fund the marketing efforts and supplement them with cold calling may be a lot to ask.

The bulk of the advertising has been paid for by my wife and I's income.  With the last 3 rounds of layoffs at her work, and the reduction of my own income from my injuries means that every dollar we put into advertising counts more.  The game, for the first time since its inception, has to now stand on its own two feet without any more from me.

==

I love listening to users talk about their first 'person that took them under their wing'.  There's always some admiration of the person who took the newbie, picked them up, dusted them off, and started them on their journey towards success on MR.  I loved being on both sides of that equation.

Now, I see very little of this.  I see crewleaders complain that a member cost them 200k to acquire.  And that its too much effort to recruit.  They pocket their sponsors income and complain that the new members should just go back to begging for invites.

I bet the bank that the crewleaders would create families that would be desirable to join.  I bet the bank that the crewleaders would be able to create an atmosphere that created excitement to be a part of something.  I bet the bank that even if those at the top were indifferent on the happiness of their members, they would at least foster some kind of situation where they would entice others to do so.

I was wrong.  I choose poorly.  I put the future in the game in the hands at those at the top thinking that by just building the canvas, that the top could create the world that we play in.

Perhaps the game needs to offer more to new players than just existing players convincing them to stay.

I think you are right.  I think its time to step away from relying on the top to keep the game going.  We need to provide an alternative to not be part of the the groups that run things, and be able to flourish without going that direction.

I think a bunch of new features can solve this.  We limit the impact that the top can have on the game, both good and bad, and pad the enjoyment from new features that allow them to work under, along side, above or side step altogether those at the top to provide their own fun.

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Well I thankful for all they done keep this game running and it take time and money.

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I think a bunch of new features can solve this.

I do not think this is a bad direction at all (progressive development is consistently something players of all types of games enjoy seeing), however I do believe that it may be simpler or more effective to modify existing features rather than add more.

Your concerns relating to recruiting and mentorship are things that, from my experience, happen organically within a crew rather than at first contact. I don't think we have any shortage of players ready to teach people how to play the game- I fear we simply have a decline in people wanting it. I mean, I still have people reaching out to me each time I come back because we formed those bonds when I was a crewleader ages ago. But while I taught many of them how to play I never gave any of my members their reason to play. The game did that. It still does. It keeps many of us coming back even though we know we'll just get purged after a couple months.

I've made my suggestions before so I won't rehash them here. But as someone who has criticized you before, Squishy, I appreciate your current awareness and attitude in addressing this issue. Thank you.

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